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    Your Elvenar Team

Evaluation of Elven Tile Space for Chapters 1-6.

MaidenFair

Well-Known Member
The problem as a new player trying to evaluate this kind of thing is that most of the advice comes from really well-established players who have lots of event buildings in inventory, an already established playstyle, and lots of interconnected buildings/processes that work in a very delicate balance. When you're starting out, you don't have all of those things yet, and so the practicality of certain assumptions may not be the same. Like the advice to not count the culture buildings unlocked in the tech tree because better buildings are always available in the events; that's absolutely true, and I don't think I've built a culture building from my building tab menu since chapter 3. Yet, if you're going to do the math on this kind of thing, I think it's best to use those numbers anyway, for the precise reason that those buildings are always available and have a set value. If you want to upgrade or build something now, you don't want to have to wait for an event that offers a good building for the culture/pop/goods to support your upgrade, since as a new player, you probably don't have oodles of them already in storage. Also, the event buildings offered differ from event to event, so even if you get a "superior pop/culture building", it may be heavier on one thing over another, or lower in both, but it also offers goods, and so on. There is also an element of luck in acquiring those. And what if you want to do some upgrades between events? Or the event offers mostly culture-heavy buildings, while you're short on population at the moment? Or you change chapter but don't have the RRs to upgrade the buildings with you? That math gets too fuzzy, too quickly to be useful in actual calculations, imo.

Since you're looking at tile efficiency, I'm going to open a can of worms here with an observation I've made recently; I've been doing some similar calculations, and have come to the surprising conclusion that upgrading manufactories is not always the best use of space. Yes, if all you count is the production number, it goes up, but when you factor in the additional population and culture needed, it can save space to actually build new manufactories instead of upgrading the ones you've got.
Practical example: a few weeks ago, I had 4 lvl 9 marble manufactories. A lvl 16 (Human) manufactory is almost exactly double the base production of a lvl 9 (142 vs 69, 3-hour productions). So I could double my marble production by just upgrading them all to lvl 16. However, that would require another 2934 people (the equivalent of 5 residences as upgraded as currently possible) and 1631 culture (combined needs of the manufactories and residences; 22 squares, based on my highest available building menu option), plus the manufactories themselves each grow by 3 squares (4x3 to 5x3), meaning that upgrading my 4 lvl 9 manufactories to lvl 16 would use 84 squares (only 12 of which belong to the manufactories themselves). Now the interesting part: if I added 4 more lvl 9 manufactories instead (also doubles my marble production), they need an additional 48 squares of space themselves, which sounds bad, but only 1304 people (2 residences) and 798 culture (11 squares), making the total space usage for the second option only 79 squares. At this level, to build 4 new manufactories, instead of upgrading the 4 I had, saves me 5 city squares in total!
I ran this math for a number of different levels and several types of manufactories, and it's not just a peculiarity of my particular situation, it holds true across the board...the manufactories start becoming less efficient, as far as the number of squares needed to support them, somewhere between level 9 and level 15 for all the types I checked. It gets proportionately worse as the levels climb. Now of course, for an established player, if they have wonders or event buildings that have effects dependent on building levels, number of residences, working population and so on, then applying this math might actually cost them, and very possibly is not a useful observation. But for a new player, who doesn't have other things dependent on those numbers yet, it might be worthwhile to consider actually not upgrading manufactories, but run some numbers and see if it would save you space in the long run to just build new ones to a certain level instead.

(Just to forestall confusion, I realise the sentient goods, which I have not reached yet, cannot be produced without manufactories of a higher level. I am only talking about basic goods production here.)
 

Sprite1313

Well-Known Member
@MaidenFair, very interesting post and a great perspective.

The problem as a new player trying to evaluate this kind of thing is that most of the advice comes from really well-established players who have lots of event buildings in inventory, an already established playstyle, and lots of interconnected buildings/processes that work in a very delicate balance. When you're starting out, you don't have all of those things yet, and so the practicality of certain assumptions may not be the same.
It's true that a new player starting out doesn't have much inventory as an established player, but that doesn't negate the advice, generally based on the painful experience of doing something you later regretted. I just started a new city on beta (currently only chapter 2), so I am reliving the struggle of being a new player. The advantage is that I have the experience that I gained playing on a live world (and the stupid mistakes I made early on). This is definitely a game that requires a lot of forethought. I don't think anybody would tell a new player not to use the buildings in the culture tab, most of us are just saying that those buildings aren't actually very good. Especially those from the early chapters have become obsolete as this game has continued to evolve. However, if that is all that you have available, then that is what you use.

If you want to upgrade or build something now, you don't want to have to wait for an event that offers a good building for the culture/pop/goods to support your upgrade, since as a new player, you probably don't have oodles of them already in storage.
However, given the poor per-tile value of the buildable buildings, you are likely to run out of space to place enough of them to give you the culture/pop that you need to upgrade buildings. So, if you build good habits early in the game, you will use tools like ElvenArchitect to plan out the next chapter and know your culture/population needs. I know a lot of players who just "wing it" and then scramble to add pop/cult to upgrade something. I am too OCD to function that way. :p

Since you're looking at tile efficiency, I'm going to open a can of worms here with an observation I've made recently; I've been doing some similar calculations, and have come to the surprising conclusion that upgrading manufactories is not always the best use of space.
That is a very interesting observation. I will leave the maths up to other folks, since math makes my head hurt ;) . Depending on the pace at which you want to progress through chapters, this might be a viable option. I know in early chapters, I was running 10 fully upgraded T1s (for example) to keep pace with my needs (including a lot of negotiating in spire and tourney in early days). I was also trying to race through chapters; this game is definitely helping me learn more patience. I was able to decrease that number as I converted to a fighting city and built a stockpile of goods.
 

MaidenFair

Well-Known Member
@MaidenFair, very interesting post and a great perspective.

Thanks! I've been hesitant to post anything like this, since I know that many players have played much, much longer than I have, and I hate rocking the boat.

It's true that a new player starting out doesn't have much inventory as an established player, but that doesn't negate the advice, generally based on the painful experience of doing something you later regretted. I just started a new city on beta (currently only chapter 2), so I am reliving the struggle of being a new player. The advantage is that I have the experience that I gained playing on a live world (and the stupid mistakes I made early on). This is definitely a game that requires a lot of forethought. I don't think anybody would tell a new player not to use the buildings in the culture tab, most of us are just saying that those buildings aren't actually very good. Especially those from the early chapters have become obsolete as this game has continued to evolve. However, if that is all that you have available, then that is what you use.

Oh, absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that established players' advice wasn't useful or good, just that occasionally it's built on assumptions (like readily available craftable or event buildings) which don't yet apply to newer players. In that case, I just store the advice away in my brain for later. :)

I know a lot of players who just "wing it" and then scramble to add pop/cult to upgrade something. I am too OCD to function that way. :p

Haha! I'm a weird mix between OCD and winging it so far. I've clearly spent waaay too much time on the math around upgrades, but at the same time, I'm just kind of building things as the mood strikes me. I haven't hit a spot yet where I've had to scramble. ...Now that I've said that, I'll probably be hopelessly behind in a week or two. ;)

since math makes my head hurt ;) .
You and me both, lol!
 

Diellashana

Member
@MaidenFair

Thanks. You made me discover something in my marble manufactury. The first table below is how I derive my weights with respect to its current chapter. Chapter, level, population, cumulative population, culture, cumulative culture, space, population technical debt ratio, culture technical debt ratio, effect space, goods, 9-9-3 is just 49% more than the G value, then lastly the 9-9-3 / effective space. In previous posts I said that I took the highest value per chapter as its max weight ratio. You can see that in Ch 4, L 13 I saw that it was relatively the same in chapter 5 then picked up again in chapter 6.

The second table you can see that I dragged all chapter 6 population and culture cost weight ratios back all the way to chapter 1. The Ch 6, L 16 manufactury stopped being superior as the effective weight of Ch 4, L 13 became more efficient.

Great, now I have to look ahead at least 2-3 chapters and take into account efficiency changes. Thanks! Checking… My marble is still level 9 so I’m good.

Population is a problem. Luckily I’ve found Elven Architect to help plan my next chapter city’s layout.

@Sprite1313

I wish I didn’t expand too much with non-premium expansions. Luckily It all evens out over a lot of time. Currently I’ve not placed 3 available expansions and have 41 premium available.

41uKFkw3I_7FneYTauAq0Hq4cnAncXAOgmY2bqcva8S6dZKdsBOE4foH3YA6q8Q_Ez0sH1d1oZnkBdphra8PzUGWusEan5v-eENhMKnnmSFw9Zbdb8-8Yt-LQ5tJ0JzNDfsKuRiK
 

MaidenFair

Well-Known Member
@Diellashana , glad to give you another angle to think about. Your charts are interesting; thanks for sharing! I don't remember the human lvl 13 being the efficiency equal of the lvl 15, so that's an interesting difference between the races. (But then most of my equations are scattered about on scratch paper, so they're harder to reference again, haha!)

That actually raises a thought: I suppose it's possible, since the chapter 4 manufactories with chapter 6 residences and culture buildings became the most efficient option in the data you've looked at, that there could be mis-matched levels higher up that would be even more efficient, like, oh, a chapter 7 manufactory with an Amuni residence or something. It's possible that the efficiency still tops out at lvl 15 just because of the increasing population and culture demands, but I suppose to find the truly most efficient level, every manufactory level would have to be checked against every possible residence/culture level going up the chapters. *winces* The thought of that much math gives me writer's cramp. ;)
 

Diellashana

Member
I've cleanup up some of my assumptions. I took exact 9-9-3 values from elvenarchitect instead of multiplying by a percentage. I changed all outputs based off of 9-9-3. Here are my final effective tile weights and example table.

1642525740269.png


I'm able to put in my current relic bonus which will shift my weights accordingly. I also took numbers out through chapter 7 as sentient goods start coming into play after that.

Where do I go from here? I have a question as to what minimum productions I need to always keep my research going? If I stay too small I may run into a roadblock by my research tree slowing down. I want to always keep that going as fast as it can.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I have a question as to what minimum productions I need to always keep my research going?

Your tournament performance will be your biggest determinant. The higher your tournament performance goes the quicker you gain KP, the quicker you fill the tech tree, the more productions you need Inversely the lower your tournament performance the less KP you gain the slower you progress through the tech tree, the lower your productions needs.


This is a link to Minmax gamers spire/tournament sheet. https://minmaxgame.com/tournament-and-spire-requirements-2020/


With your love of math, you will probably even understand it ;)!

Me, I track my productions every week and if they drop I make changes. I advance through the tech tree at a snail's pace and throw all my KP in my wonders not my tech tree.
 

Diellashana

Member
@lyapo1 Thanks for pointing out I can always dump into an AW. I was afraid KP was going to be unspent if I couldn't pay for a tech.
 

Diellashana

Member
I think I'm close enough to Chapter 4 that I can wait to collect most of my event buildings. I also plan to save sorcerer's knowledge for dailies until I'm in chapter 4.

Orange - set building (base values only).
Blue - Daily.
Purple - Daily that I care about.

I can see that the daily random buildings are not very good. Set buildings matter the most. I'll get the sleepy titan if I can. Of the dailies, The Unexpected Morning matters most to me.

...What achievement? Where? Who?


1642556834359.png
 

Gustoff

Member
I saw the thread title, got all excited (eureka, someone gives advice for me a new player!), then I read the post and found myself buried in the weeds of jargon and the mire of items not yet available to me. I started playing a week ago, have three different villages as I've tried different approaches to the game, but I am barely started with chapter 2. So, some questions to help clarify:

What is 9-9-3?
T1-T3: Normally 'T' is used to designate 'Tier', do you mean Basic/T1, Crafted/T2, Magical/T3?

The Wiki's Starting-Out advice is to do the Advisor's quests and everything will just be wonderful. The Advisor's quests seemed logical enough until I noticed inconsistency between credit for things done and no credit for things done (do it again for the quest). When you are starting out, the quests fill your village with 14 residences, 7 workshops, and misc military and manufactuary buildings. The forum advice commented to have 8 Manufactuaries ideally, I've found doing so depends on the luck of the resource you have boosted (long narrow buildings like Plank/Marble being easier to stack in limited space).

Much of the early game seems wrought with expansion/space issues. This is accomplished through exploring (surveying, negotiating/fighting). As the troop technologies don't seem to advance in the tech tree fast enough to counter the strength of the explored areas (my starter Mage/Archers vs what looks like Tanks and troop carriers in large numbers), I've tended to negotiate myself out of areas to explore. I spend time with spreadsheets calculating the materials needed to complete provinces then patiently producing them until I can complete them. Chapter 2 also has this string of techs that require 24+ KP to complete which means more exploring and negotiating to advance to key points like upgrading the Main Hall. I am dutifully polishing everyone I can, but seem to just get a sore elbow and too much gold (causing me to scout more until everything else is locked).

So, yes, advice on tempering the enthusiasm of a new player is welcomed (yes I know about ElvenArchitect and some external sites now too) but can you just focus on 1 or 2 chapters at a time and not lump months of gameplay (ch 1-6) into the same discussion? Sorry if I'm whining, but I thought some feedback from a 'fresh/new' player might be useful.
 

samidodamage

Well-Known Member
@Gustoff
I don't think it's easy to focus on just a chapter or 2 in the early part of the game; as you noted, finishing the first chapter takes about a week. Things change a lot there, but the game begins to slow down after you hit the guest race chapters starting with Ch6-Dwarves. From that point, strategies become more chapter specific.
ElvenGems has some excellent info for 'true' beginners. Try starting here:
City Layout(Space Optimization)
On the left of the screen you'll see green rectangles with dropdowns. Browse through some of those to get info/ideas on what strategies fit for your play style.
 

MaidenFair

Well-Known Member
@Gustoff , 9-9-3 refers to the production lengths of your goods manufactories or workshops, so setting one 3-hour production and two 9-hour productions in a day, which is probably the norm for most players who also work.

Yes, T1-3 refer to the goods, just as you have paired them. The names for the different tiers have changed recently and so it can be less confusing (as well as faster typing!) to refer to them by level as T1, T2, or T3, since everyone is not used to the new terminology yet.

If you have too much gold, you can spend it in the Wholesaler (one of the tabs in the Trader) to buy goods. This keeps you from wasting gold as well as providing a small boost to your goods levels.

My most important piece of advice to absolute beginners is: don't scout to get KP. Yes, that is a nice side effect of scouting, but if you're using scouting as a primary method of advancing in the tech tree, you will almost immediately run up against a wall of ridiculously expensive provinces that leaves you out of resources, troops, and patience, and it can actually hamper your game for quite a time to come if you try to push through that. Since the KP do refill at the rate of 1/hr, even a 24+KP technology shouldn't take much more than a day to complete naturally (allowing for the fact you'll probably lose a few hours overnight).

I also disagree with the advice to follow the Advisor's quests, at least past the very first few that literally teach game mechanics. In my opinion, they force you to place too many buildings too quickly and encourage the overscouting-to-get-provinces issue that drives beginners to distraction. If it looks like the Advisor is teaching you to do something new, that you haven't encountered/didn't know what to do with before, then by all means try to follow the quest. Otherwise, I think it's best to leave those behind and just focus on doing things that support your goals. Do you just want to have a pretty city? Do you want to have a wildly efficient city that takes up barely any room? Do you want to be able to top the leaderboards in score or tournaments? Do you want to speed through the chapters and get to the end as fast as possible? Any of those (and countless others) will lead to a different type of city build and playstyle, and it's much easier to look for more specific advice and evaluate it if you have an idea whether it jives with what you hope to accomplish. I think discovering what is fun about the game for you and following that thread is much more important and useful than following the Advisor's quests.

Also, for those of us in chapters 4-6ish, evaluating all the early chapters together is quite useful because we frequently still have buildings around that come from those earlier chapters, and are still in the process of upgrading and fleshing out what works for us. It's also good to be looking at least a chapter or two ahead to plan for what you'll need/have available later. Players in later chapters don't need to evaluate the earliest chapters because they're well beyond them, plus it's frequently been a year or more since they played them so they don't necessarily remember everything they did anymore, or what was necessary to progress at a given point, so their advice tends to be more general. However, as a player about to enter Chapter 7 myself (hopefully this evening!), I don't quite feel qualified to give extremely specific advice on the earliest chapters because I'm still experimenting with my playstyle and learning as I grow. I would hate to tell someone "This is exactly what you should do to start out", and then watch them crash and burn in 6-8 months because my set-up had an unexpected flaw in it that I hadn't gotten far enough to experience yet myself.
 

Myne

Well-Known Member
Much of the early game seems wrought with expansion/space issues.

ALL of the game is wrought with expansion/space issues. It's part of the challenge built into the game. Did you ever play tetris? The challenge is getting your city the most efficient and productive it can be in the space you have.

So, yes, advice on tempering the enthusiasm of a new player is welcomed

Settle in for the long haul. This is a game of patience and strategy. The long view is valuable.

What is 9-9-3?
T1-T3: Normally 'T' is used to designate 'Tier', do you mean Basic/T1, Crafted/T2, Magical/T3?

993 refers to the productivity time for manufactories. If you work, the norm is two 9 hour productions with a 3 hour in between. i.e. 9 hours at night and while at work. If you are at home/retired, you can do the opposite. One 9 hour production at night and 3 hour productions during the day.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
170% culture usually means you have way to much cuture in your city (unless you are in the early chapters)

And yeah spelling up buildings is awesome.

It allows me to get like 400-600% culture bonus, this gives me ample supplies to bake more units, with thse units I can play tournaments, with tournaments I het more spells, and those spells get me more supplies.

It's a lovely circle
 

Diellashana

Member
@Gustoff Welcome. I just started myself a few weeks ago. I would hope that someone reading this thread gains the enjoyment of reading about my experience. My tables have faults and tuned to a lens that I find useful looking though. There has been advice in this thread to not take numbers too seriously as a new player. That is good advice.

My advice is to find a fellowship. It's a slow game. Participate in tournament progress and in chapter 3 you can start the spire. Be active in your FS and community at what ever level of effort you are comfortable with and then define your own fun.
 

Sprite1313

Well-Known Member
This is accomplished through exploring (surveying, negotiating/fighting). As the troop technologies don't seem to advance in the tech tree fast enough to counter the strength of the explored areas (my starter Mage/Archers vs what looks like Tanks and troop carriers in large numbers), I've tended to negotiate myself out of areas to explore. I spend time with spreadsheets calculating the materials needed to complete provinces then patiently producing them until I can complete them. Chapter 2 also has this string of techs that require 24+ KP to complete which means more exploring and negotiating to advance to key points like upgrading the Main Hall.
It sounds like you might be over scouting already. You will earn one KP per hour, and can sometimes get them from neighbourly help visits (three rewards per game day). If you are finding enemies really hard to beat, you have probably scouted too far. Try and keep your enemies to medium (yellow color) as much as possible early on. It might feel slow, but that is the name of the game. It won’t be too long before you hit the point where you can be constantly scouting without making your enemies too tough and your battles/negotiations too expensive.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
I also disagree with the advice to follow the Advisor's quests, at least past the very first few that literally teach game mechanics. In my opinion, they force you to place too many buildings too quickly and encourage the overscouting-to-get-provinces issue that drives beginners to distraction. If it looks like the Advisor is teaching you to do something new, that you haven't encountered/didn't know what to do with before, then by all means try to follow the quest. Otherwise, I think it's best to leave those behind and just focus on doing things that support your goals.
This is sooooooo true. All the advisor/personal tasks do is get you stuck faster.
Do Not upgrade MH when it says to, do it when you want to, seriously......

An experience'd player can do CH1-2 in < 3weeks, no FS. ( new world/city )
In a FS, I'm sure with help, that can be cut below 2weeks, barely. A virgin
player can do this in < 4 weeks.... 3 if they're in a FS and fed goods.

Once ya hit CH3, balls to the wall on the next event. That should net you enough
current CH bldgs to have a solid city foundation, now Join a FS, because now
Spire is open, and you should be able to pull 1000ish tourn pts/week.
Park yourself there for 1 more event, while you fully (chapterize) your city.
( yeah get all bldgs upgraded to current CH and get a small warchest of
troops and supplies, and get relic Boost as high as you can )
If you really want you can move to CH4 and do that 2nd event, but still
park in CH4 till everything is upgraded fully.

From there start moving up again, every 2-3 chapters, pause and chapterize
your city, then keep going....

Since 9-9-3 is not what you thought, You are looking for 7-6-2, or pre-CH5
can survive on 8-6-0 or 7-7-0 .... min CH3 7-5-0........ (T1/T2/T3). Personally
I'm on alot more so 9-9-3 becomes 3-3-3-3-9.

Playing this game hand/mouth or paycheck/paycheck is a recipie for
frustration and burnout. Get a city with a solid foundation, find a good FS,
and make sure you have a small nestegg of troops/resources before you keep going.

I think (any new player) you'll find doing this simple thing will allow you
to prosper and have fun playing this game. Remember patience is a virtue,
and around here as with most games like this... Patience is necessary to a point.

As far as I see it, there are 4 sins for an early CH player
1) upgrading MH too much , too quickly.
2) going too fast and running outta just about everything
3) severe overscouting so everything is very-hard on map.
4) placing too many expansions, too quickly. ( kills cater costs )
( Implied is not letting the community play your game for ya )

The biggest problem with CH 1-2 specific help is :
Things are changing so fast for you, by the time we help you...
its possible you've already blasted thru whatever prob you were
having. ( especially if you're in a FS and getting resource help )

Personally, once ya get to CH3, and unlock Spire ( or CH4 )....
why not sit there till you get to 700% Boost, all the while you're
getting everything upgraded and squared away. It also allows
you to completely focus on an event or 2.

Getting to this point, gives you experiencce with the UI/buttons
and gives you a frame of reference so any help we do give you
not only makes sense, but is understandable ( in context ).
 
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