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    Your Elvenar Team

FA push towns must End! That's clear cheating!

muffy.

Chef - Scroll-Keeper - Chandelier Swinger - EAA
If it is against forum rules, to name people, that in my opinion are doing something wrong, I apologize. I have no intention in breaking rules here. The only thing I'm trying to say is that practices like that are detrimental to the game and should be looked into, not only by the development team but also by other players who play fair.
I get your issue ..Check out the search button in the Forum on this subject … trust me it’s been around for quite some time.
There comes a point in time where you are here for the fun , not for what others are doing or getting away with …. Worrying about what others do eventually is gonna burn you out on the game . Just be the best you can be .
 

Dadnaz

Active Member
I get your issue ..Check out the search button in the Forum on this subject … trust me it’s been around for quite some time.
There comes a point in time where you are here for the fun , not for what others are doing or getting away with …. Worrying about what others do eventually is gonna burn you out on the game . Just be the best you can be .
Not sure I totally agree with that, but I get your point.
 

Yavimaya

Scroll-Keeper
i dont see it as cheating. its a choice to play that style. if the FS can afford to do this, that's their choice to hold space for cities that dont contribute at any other time than during the FA.

What i do find to be a bit lopsided is that all fellowships compete against one another regardless of their ranking. I would like to see something in place that pits FS of certain point totals/ranks against those that are similar.
From what I'm reading above they dont, those cities leave the fs then come back for the next fa? (I think I read that right) If you scroll up and look at Kadhrin's comment.
 

defiantoneks

Well-Known Member
Same people multiple accounts...look at kadhrin's comment above from checking pattern on elvenstats. Just saw this.
sounds odd. if a regular player has a big tent city to swap in just for the FA, why would they leave the FS and get none of the rewards in the 'good' city? i've been in FS before where a regular player played a secondary acct, and it was always part of the FS but fairly inactive outside of the FA weeks. Never liked the approach because if you want spire gold, you need everyone to contribute and obviously those tent towns cant. Same with tourney. So your FS takes a hit during every week that is NOT a FA just to keep those tent towns around. And while they may make more WS badges, they won't generate bracelets, ghosts, hats, marbles, residue, druid staffs, etc (or if they do, it wont be many b/c they wont have the resources to craft - no relics, fewer catalysts).
 

Smooper

Well-Known Member
I would say the rewards in a Fellowship Adventure could easily be secondary to the glory of coming in first. Plus, you are pushing the rest of your teammates to get the best prizes. Somewhat noble act though perhaps the method is wrong.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
It's not a "push town"; it is not using its resources to push another player rather than to grow itself.
Isn't it though? Space is arguably the most important resource and if a player is using an alternate account only to assist his main account during the FA that certainly seems against the spirit of the game to me.
so, are you also going to suspend the ability to purchase badges with diamonds? that's not good, honest competition either. it's buying a win.
Diamonds aren't against the rules. Pushing is.
It's debatable whether this particular case is "pushing" since inno refuses to even give examples of what qualifies, but if I was to judge it I'd say it's a little cheaty.
 
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Astram

Forum Moderator
Elvenar Team
Just to clarify, as long as the city is not being used to "push" and a city stripped down for an FA does not meet the definition of a push account, This was confirmed by Helya, during the last FA.

I have removed the player and city name as that is not allowed
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Just to clarify, as long as the city is not being used to "push" and a city stripped down for an FA does not meet the definition of a push account, This was confirmed by Helya, during the last FA.
Stripping down your main city isn't pushing, but I don't see how having a spare city whose only purpose is to assist your main city isn't the exact definition of pushing.

Does anyone have a link to @helya / @Queen of Snacks reasoning on this?
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Stripping down your main city isn't pushing, but I don't see how having a spare city whose only purpose is to assist your main city isn't the exact definition of pushing.

Does anyone have a link to @helya / @Queen of Snacks reasoning on this?
Problem is it's not facts, it's supposition. It might be a perfectly reasonable and likely, supposition, but we can't say for sure that the cities aren't mostly-inactive people who just like to come back when there's an FA running because they find the rest of the game boring.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
Compared to other games Ive played, Elvenar is a plethora
of cheating strategies. Some against the rules and not taken
care of, others are clever workarounds that violate only the
spirit of the rules, but not actually the letter of the law.....

Then we have clever workarounds that violate nothing, and
simply are players's way of maximizing the current rules.

Swapping in/out cities only for FAs, is just as detrimental
as allowing AWs to be swapp'd in/out to aide tourn/spire
play, which the Devs said they'd never allow.

Stripping down a reg city for a FA, always has been a legal
way to augment a FS for FAs.
 

Gkyr

Chef
Swapping in/out cities only for FAs, is just as detrimental
as allowing AWs to be swapp'd in/out to aide tourn/spire
play, which the Devs said they'd never allow.
No it is not 'just as detrimental'.
Please do not use this comparison because on the strength of it they are not equal at all in effect. In fact, they are so unequal in effect that a gamer pursuing the 'AW option' is actually disadvantaging themselves.
First, as mentioned, the 'farm cities' have a big effect on the outcome of the FA. The judgement of this is ongoing and it is not my point.
My point is that the presence or absence of one fully upgraded AW (say, lvl 30) makes a difference in the cost calculation of Spire or Tourney of only .09. This is a difference that does not make a difference, and it costs the gamer one teleport spell, which are a rare resource. So while the intent to 'game the rules' can be seen as manipulative, the outcome does not materially degrade the game, disenfranchise other players or benefit the instigator. Let it rest. Use other examples, if you must.
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
Stripping down your main city isn't pushing, but I don't see how having a spare city whose only purpose is to assist your main city isn't the exact definition of pushing.

Does anyone have a link to @helya / @Queen of Snacks reasoning on this?
It's abolutely not agains the rules, quite often they are town "played by others" en "Gifted to the fellowship" which clearly is agains the rules but technically the city itself is totally fine.

But same as the OP it's the main reason I started to ignore FA's why. because it's a competition of destruction.
When they try to do something agains it (somewhat) people start to complain about the changes. how many complaints have we seen, "too many coins" or "to much goods for badge" or the imassive outcry about esotheric badges ect.

From that point it doesnt matter if they go either left or right the anwer is always a bad one.

As I said so many times before they only way to make an FA a team effort and not destruction derby is to hold the FA not in your city but in an event location/city. this means every team has the same working parameters and the only difference is in the effort.
 

defiantoneks

Well-Known Member
this means every team has the same working parameters
would that include making the T1s all the same size? i find it to be a disadvantage to be an Elf with Steel boost during the FA because my steel buildings are 2x2 while nonboosted are 1x2 or 2x1. So making necklaces and statues with my Steel boost means i make half as much, but contribute more to a bracelet. Conversely if i use nonboosted, i make more necklaces and statues but take a hit to bracelet production.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
would that include making the T1s all the same size? i find it to be a disadvantage to be an Elf with Steel boost during the FA because my steel buildings are 2x2 while nonboosted are 1x2 or 2x1. So making necklaces and statues with my Steel boost means i make half as much, but contribute more to a bracelet. Conversely if i use nonboosted, i make more necklaces and statues but take a hit to bracelet production.
This is why most steel players put down t1 marble for necks and statues, and keep their leveled up steel factories for bracelets. And the leveled up steel doesn't hurt you, because everyone else's leveled up factories are just as big. At least I find that to be true among my acquaintances with steel boosts. And it doesn't matter if the t1 marble are not your boost ... they give so little anyway it's negligible.
 

Myne

Oh Wise One
Ima throw in my 2 cents worth: If "normal" fellowships (and by that I mean those who do not follow that "stuffing the fellowship" pattern) have no chance at actually placing in the top 5 in the FA, then how could it possibly be a fair practice or at the very least not cheating? The premise of any game is fair play. At least I have never heard of a game that was designed to be used with cheating.
IMHO, this practice should be stopped.

BUT do we have enough pull to shape the rules?
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Swapping in/out cities only for FAs, is just as detrimental
as allowing AWs to be swapp'd in/out to aide tourn/spire
play, which the Devs said they'd never allow.
I suspect the devs aren't withholding AW teleports because of FA, but because it's a more complex interaction with the city and they don't want to do the math to check if it's balanced or not.

Everything else either produces something or adds culture or population. AWs do that and also interact with help and change the rate of population and change the rate of troop production and change the hit points or damage of troops.....
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Ima throw in my 2 cents worth: If "normal" fellowships (and by that I mean those who do not follow that "stuffing the fellowship" pattern) have no chance at actually placing in the top 5 in the FA, then how could it possibly be a fair practice or at the very least not cheating? The premise of any game is fair play. At least I have never heard of a game that was designed to be used with cheating.
IMHO, this practice should be stopped.

BUT do we have enough pull to shape the rules?
There's no win condition in Elvenar. All placing first in the FA does is get you some in game stuff that's no better than you can get with diamonds and your name in lights for a few days (if anyone bothers to look.)
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Addressing the "spirit of the game" or "spirit of the rules" is a bit like addressing "what is art." The spirit of the thing is tied up with the intention of the producer of the thing, the receiver of the thing, and the thing itself. We sort of know what was/is intended, how the thing strikes our sensibilities, and what the thing is, but all that is secondary to the concrete thing itself. In this case the "thing itself" is encoded in the rules and enforcement of those rules. What the rules say is not permissible, how those rules are applied and the degree to which they are applied constitutes the actual "spirit" of the rules at this time. And that means, pretty much, their is not real advantage of speaking of the "spirit" of the rules or game since if it's legal (or not but not enforced, which is a form of "legal by proxy") it's all you have to go on. So the idea of "cheating" becomes mute when it "violates" the "spirit of the game" exactly because you can't violate something that, legally speaking, does not exist.

As for the building FA farms, I do it all the time. I have about 200 workshops now and I parked all my Chapter 18 buildings and even deleted my portal for the room. Why? Because I like helping my team get into the top 10 (which we do every time we go "all out"). That, to me, is part of the game and makes it fun. One supposes it's a bit like playing any spoirt. You show up with people and they haven't made the effort to bulk up, or improve their sport skills, they generally lose, where those who sacrifice time and energy to do so, often do better.

AJ



AJ
 
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