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    Your Elvenar Team

FA push towns must End! That's clear cheating!

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Since when is it anyones business what the next guy does ?
In a competition where there are prizes to be won based on how well your team does vs others?
I mean *I* don't care about the FA PvP prizes, but I can certainly understand why others might.

Edit: come to think about it, if the developers made it an even playing field by implementing some changes I (and presumably others?) might be interested in joining a fair competition. It might make an otherwise forgettable feature of the game quite attractive.
Yup, upon further reflection I do care how other people play.
 
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Henroo

Oh Wise One
This is the final score for the FA. I erased any names, so it won't get edited.
If it this can't show that 3 swap cities can destroy the competitive aspect of the FA, I don't know what can. Look at the difference between the first place and all the others. I'm closing my posts on this topic. This will probably never get to Inno and even if it does, I don't think they will do anything about it and that's that.
On US4 Khelonaar the FS you are so worried about would have lost by 28K because the top scoring FS in Khel had a final score of 131,300. Not going to name the FS here in order to be polite, but anybody who plays there probably knows who it is. But I will say I double checked Elvenstats and there were no membership changes in that FS for several weeks previous to the FA. So there were none of the substitutions you are concerned with. Nothing questionable at all, this FS is just THAT good at FAs. As far as I can remember: since I started playing in Feb 2020, they've been top ranked in every single FA except for 1.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
you could try so many things to curb the "problem" but the "offenders" will always find a way around it.

You are correct, of course, that some people will try to find away around anything you put in place to stop them. But consider bank robbery. If it were easy to rob it, and if doing so was a minor offense, we'd have a lot more bank-robbers, right? The thing about stopping just about any crime through legislation or technology, is that each rule or technique you use makes it more difficult -- and if it's more difficult, fewer will do it. Stopping crime is not a light switch you can flip, it's a fire hose you begin squeezing.

As for how hard Inno is willing to squeeze the fire hose, I am pretty sure, for reasons others have given, not very. It's only a problem if it hurts the bottom line and I'm pretty sure they have done the comparison of "how much we are going to lose if we 'squeeze the fire hose' compared to "how much are we making by leaving the fire hose wide open?" So far, the "leave it wide open" is probably winning.

In a competition where there are prizes to be won based on how well your team does vs others?
I mean *I* don't care about the FA PvP prizes, but I can certainly understand why others might.

Edit: come to think about it, if the developers made it an even playing field by implementing some changes I (and presumably others?) might be interested in joining a fair competition. It might make an otherwise forgettable feature of the game quite attractive.
Yup, upon further reflection I do care how other people play.

It's always nice to see when somebody, having taken a stance, does some 'further reflecting" and changes his or her mind. Of course, the stronger a stance one takes the more difficult it might be to do that "further reflecting" but at least that option was exercised in this case.

AJ
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Anyone who wants to and is willing to put down the most cash can win the FA. Inno isn't going to change that, so any other changes to make it appear more "fair" are irrelevant. As long as they don't stop the swapping of optimized cities they can point at them and say that there is a non-diamond path to the win. To treat them as cheating requires openly admitting that nothing matters in the FA but diamond sales.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Anyone who wants to and is willing to put down the most cash can win the FA. Inno isn't going to change that, so any other changes to make it appear more "fair" are irrelevant. As long as they don't stop the swapping of optimized cities they can point at them and say that there is a non-diamond path to the win. To treat them as cheating requires openly admitting that nothing matters in the FA but diamond sales.
I wonder how many diamond sales would be needed to compete...

I can only guess and go with what some have told us, but when races were tight for the top FA spot the spending players dropped a thousand diamonds here and there to skip badges in the pit that they didn't have.

If @BrinDarby's tiny city had 175 bracelets at some point(as per his pic), then a purpose-built one as pictured in this thread (with a lot of rounding and some guesswork), I'm estimating that swapping in 3 ringer cities could have a "value" as high as 20K USD in diamonds.
Yes, someone else could spend 21K to beat them then, but at some point... they won't.

This is always the issue with introducing any PvP element into a "free" game. In the best games, free players can always get the top spot with the right combination of time & strategy whereas "diamonds" only allow others to replace some lack of time but are capped at free play.
E.G.​
Your building makes 1 widget every 6 hours, but can only hold 2 before needing to be collected, or else production stops.​
vs​
The premium building can hold 4 widgets before production stops​
The maximum is still 4 widgets per day, but free players need to be online twice as often.​

The current way the FA is done where you can directly buy a theoretically unlimited number of points is super lame.
 

Smooper

Well-Known Member
We have written a lot about push cities and how they are cheating. I really think that only one type of push city is illegal as far as Inno thinks and that is the ones that push KP onto another city. The cities that push fellowship rewards and points are totally legal. The one type that I haven't seen anything written about here is the diamond push city. You could make 10 cities that are optimized to push spire (could be done at very low level) and join them with gold spire reward fellowships and you can make 3000 plus diamonds every week. These diamonds are pooled into the players account and can be used by the city receiving the "push". 3000 free diamonds every week can really push a city along much quicker. I am definitely not an expert on these things but this is a powerful type of legal push city. You just have to make your way up the spire quickly since time to run 10 push accounts is your enemy here.
 

Killy-

Well-Known Member
@Smooper You don't share a diamond pool between those cities. You could play one extra city per world for extra diamonds. If that is worth your time, go for it.
 

Smooper

Well-Known Member
@Smooper You don't share a diamond pool between those cities. You could play one extra city per world for extra diamonds. If that is worth your time, go for it.
I recently started a second city that shares diamonds. What happens if you have more cities? Where do the diamonds go for those cities?
 

Killy-

Well-Known Member
I recently started a second city that shares diamonds. What happens if you have more cities? Where do the diamonds go for those cities?
A second city in a different world, but you cant play more cities in the same world with the same username. You need a new account with it's own diamond pool to play in the same world.
 

Smooper

Well-Known Member
I guess if you have an account in each world, you could have 8 cities. 7 of those could just give "share" their diamonds with the main city.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
@muffy. If you have multiple cities on the same account, they share a collective diamond pool. For example, I can win diamonds in my Khel city and use them in my Winy or Arendyll cities. But each time I use diamonds in 1 city, the pool is reduced by the same amount in the other cities. This also means that players who buy diamonds can make a single large purchase and split it among their cities instead of having to buy diamonds separately in each city.
 
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Killy-

Well-Known Member
I guess if you have an account in each world, you could have 8 cities. 7 of those could just give "share" their diamonds with the main city.
Sure, but you need to play the city enough to get to the top and actually have the time to go to the top on all those cities and you need to find a gold fs for them, which might come with extra responsibilities, like playing tournament or something. It seems less effort to get the money and buy the diamonds instead, if you want to have diamonds.^^
 

muffy.

Chef - Scroll-Keeper - Chandelier Swinger - EAA
@muffy. If you have multiple cities on the same account, they share a collective diamond pool. For example, I can win diamonds in my Khel city and use them in my Winy or Arendyll cities. But each time I use diamonds in 1 city, the pool is reduced by the same amount in the other cities. This also means that players who buy diamonds can make a single large purchase and split in among their cities instead of having to buy diamonds separately in each city.
Ok I get what you are saying now… thanks
 

Smooper

Well-Known Member
Sure, but you need to play the city enough to get to the top and actually have the time to go to the top on all those cities and you need to find a gold fs for them, which might come with extra responsibilities, like playing tournament or something. It seems less effort to get the money and buy the diamonds instead, if you want to have diamonds.^^
I don't think it would be as much work as you think to run 7 extra cities to the top of the spire if you have them. @BrinDarby What are your thoughts on the time to get a second or third city to a spire run position and how much time would it take to get to the top of the spire and run the city to do it. I am sure others have thoughts but I know Brin runs low level cities.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
I don't think it would be as much work as you think to run 7 extra cities to the top of the spire if you have them. @BrinDarby What are your thoughts on the time to get a second or third city to a spire run position and how much time would it take to get to the top of the spire and run the city to do it. I am sure others have thoughts but I know Brin runs low level cities.
I do agree Brin would be the expert here. Getting the city to the end of chapter 3 would be very easy. I think the key issue is: how aggressively do you have to play a ch 3 city in order to top the spire weekly? What kind of collection schedule does a low level city have to have in order to produce the resources to top the spire?
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
I do agree Brin would be the expert here. Getting the city to the end of chapter 3 would be very easy. I think the key issue is: how aggressively do you have to play a ch 3 city in order to top the spire weekly? What kind of collection schedule does a low level city have to have in order to produce the resources to top the spire?

Input from a chapter 3 city is pointless, since now new cities will have the new tech tree and not unlock Spire until chapter 4 and be useless for anything tournament-related until chapter 5.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
Input from a chapter 3 city is pointless, since now new cities will have the new tech tree and not unlock Spire until chapter 4 and be useless for anything tournament-related until chapter 5.
@crackie recently started a new city and she said she got the old tech tree. I do not know if this is a situation where existing accounts get grandfathered into the old rules. Or if it is random right now which tech tree a new city gets.

But also, don't you have it backwards? I thought the new system unlocked tournament in ch 4 and the spire in ch 5.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
I think the key issue is: how aggressively do you have to play a ch 3 city in order to top the spire weekly?
What are your thoughts on the time to get a second or third city to a spire run position and how much time would it take to get to the top of the spire and run the city to do it.
Look, I dont run push cities, or farm cities.... altho some of you might
think 2 of my cities are farms....

1st off, I'm on the old tech tree, so getting to CH3 is a matter of 1 thing.
Join a FS, and accept a loan to get thru CH2, then pay the loan back.
This only takes 2-3 weeks. Next optimize that city for catering, and avoid
all optional expansions/SS increases. Even then keep expansions to a bare
minimum to offset Spire cater cost. the 1st 5 fights in either the tourn rnds,
or the Spire can be won easily with Dogs & HM. Catering tourn thru province
8 is reccomended, but not necessary. 6 Prov x 6 rounds is 1620 pts.

As you do Events, you can add those bldgs that will greatly add to the goods
you need to cater each week. The only other thing is to get to 700% boost.
That takes a couple months, @that point its easy-peasy. Remember, ya dont
have to almost finish CH3, just get into CH3 and unlock 1-2 things.

I can't stop Inno from making some event bldgs better than others, nor can I
stop ppl from spending $$ to buy multiples that really stops Inno from better
balancing, well..... everything. The reason I ended up with 225+++ bracelets
xtra was a combination of those 2 factors. Inno cannot rebalance the game
for what <5% of the playerbase has or is willing to buy.

Henroo, I don't really..... my CH3 cities do 8 provinces/week to 6 rounds
and they top the spire every week. Outside of events/FAs... I do lvl-1
spire as soon as it opens, then I do lvl-2 when my MH recouperates, after
that I do 1 segment a day in lvl-3.... its pretty casual if ya ask me....

@Enevhar Aldarion , has just posted the new tech tree forces players
to reach CH5, and the badge req's are not as favorable in that CH.
That won't stop players from parking there if they want and running
a city that just excells @ bracelets. Will they get 225+ prolly not, but
I can reasonably see ppl having over 100 xtra, in a non top 5 FA FS.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
Lets face it, proper balancing of the game cannot occur, untill
Inno stops allowing ppl to buy 10 or 20 of something, and we
know thats not gonna happen anytime soon, therefore players
and FSs will continue to adapt to any rule changes, and always
look for ways to optimize thier city "per the rules".....
 
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