Fair Trades?

[ajqtrz]

Yes @Enevhar Aldarion, I know. That's why I believe it is up to us as PLAYERS to impose our will in the trader and NOT accept the trades we consider unfair, not to be the cash cow that other players can profit from. WE have to make the difference. We have to ignite the change. I cannot and will not forbid anyone in my Khel fellowship from posting the trades, but I have already told them that I cannot take them. I don't have that kind of hoard. I will do what I can for my crew when I can. But I don't post them or take them unless it is arranged for one reason or another. If I notice the one and zero star trades from small cities, I reach out and ask them why they posted that way. If they are desperate to move on with a tech, I may take it, but if I look at their stats and I don't think it sounds true, I don't take them. I've become very mean as a player that way. I verify everything.

Yep, and organizing and calling for actions that influence the markets in a manner that reduces overproduction is all so quite acceptable so long as it's using market forces, and not social coercion.

The rebalancing of the markets is exactly what you would get if you simply said: any offer is okay to post and if you trained people to NOT take trades they think are unfair. In general, except for miss-clicks, nobody takes trades that are not fair in their own mind, the intangible factors being part of the trade. If I need it "now!" then that makes what is offered worth more. I, therefore, may take a trade at that time when I wouldn't at another. So we agree, that it should be, "take the trades you think fair and ignore the others." That's an open market approach and I like it. And it's what I have said I, now, do. ""cross tier trades should be fine and I do take them as I need."

Now here's the thing about the following chart. Yeah, the "5000" and the "15000" sort of look alike, but the "no stars?" That's a pretty clear signal that you might need to STOP clicking and check. Miss-clicks are a pain (who hasn't done them?) but they are self-inflicted pain and the poster shouldn't be blamed when it's pretty clear you didn't stop and read the screen. Assuming all the trades are "fair" by you definition is not the wisest thing even if it does make it easy to just click away and take everything! As the Roman said, "caveat emptor."

Just the right sort of quantities to catch people in the mid chapters through miss-clicks. I hoped it was a mistake, but the only response to my message suggesting so was an increase in the number posted.
View attachment 13695

AJ

 

[Ashrem]

Now here's the thing about the following chart. Yeah, the "5000" and the "15000" sort of look alike, but the "no stars?" That's a pretty clear signal that you might need to STOP clicking and check. Miss-clicks are a pain (who hasn't done them?) but they are self-inflicted pain and the poster shouldn't be blamed when it's pretty clear you didn't stop and read the screen. Assuming all the trades are "fair" by you definition is not the wisest thing even if it does make it easy to just click away and take everything! As the Roman said, "caveat emptor."

C'mon, AJ. It's fine to expect people to be cautious, but nobody puts a trade of 5000 T1 for 15000 T2 (marble for silk in the example) thinking someone might think that's a fair deal becuase they desperately need some marble and don't mind offloading 12 times the inputs to get it. They are putting it there to take advantage of people in a hurry, or half-asleep, or just never get used to the hinky way the game suddenly and instantly rearranges trades when you can no longer afford something from the list above. I'm not asking to stop them, but those trades are manipulative, and it's not unreasonable for people to want to filter them out.

 

[ajqtrz]

C'mon, AJ. It's fine to expect people to be cautious, but nobody puts a trade of 5000 T1 for 15000 T2 (marble for silk in the example) thinking someone might think that's a fair deal becuase they desperately need some marble and don't mind offloading 12 times the inputs to get it. They are putting it there to take advantage of people in a hurry, or half-asleep, or just never get used to the hinky way the game suddenly and instantly rearranges trades when you can no longer afford something from the list above. I'm not asking to stop them, but those trades are manipulative, and it's not unreasonable for people to want to filter them out.

How about 100k gems for 100k T2? Ever see that? I have, as I posted it. That's what it took to move nearly 10 million gems and get 5 million T2. That's a 3 star, of course. But, technically speaking a zero star trade could have the same ratio. And since all those trades were taken it could have been 66,000 gems for 150,000 T2, about the same ratio, but listed as zero star. In other words, the zero star is nothing more than a 3 star trade in reverse when it comes to actual ratios. Psychologically, it may be "worse" but not mathematically. For me the psychological distaste is not enough to ask/require everybody to not post zero star trades. And, I don't like the idea of second guessing people's motives when, obviously, some of us are willing to trade at a steep discount. And there is nothing wrong with asking for a steep discount if you can accept it's okay to post a trade at a steep discount. The "no zero star" trade rule is just saying, "don't post a trade I find distasteful."

AJ

 

[Killy-]

@ajqtrz So you are wasting your goods by trading them for a bad price and that is supposed to be an argument for what exactly? I can't follow.

 

[Ashrem]

How about 100k gems for 100k T2? Ever see that? I have, as I posted it. That's what it took to move nearly 10 million gems and get 5 million T2. That's a 3 star, of course. But, technically speaking a zero star trade could have the same ratio. And since all those trades were taken it could have been 66,000 gems for 150,000 T2, about the same ratio, but listed as zero star. In other words, the zero star is nothing more than a 3 star trade in reverse when it comes to actual ratios. Psychologically, it may be "worse" but not mathematically. For me the psychological distaste is not enough to ask/require everybody to not post zero star trades. And, I don't like the idea of second guessing people's motives when, obviously, some of us are willing to trade at a steep discount. And there is nothing wrong with asking for a steep discount if you can accept it's okay to post a trade at a steep discount. The "no zero star" trade rule is just saying, "don't post a trade I find distasteful."

AJ

The inverse of 100kgems for 100k T2 is a far better deal than the one I quoted, which was the equivalent of 100k t2 for 300k gems. It's been sitting there for several days, so it's not in internal push trasnfer. You can't possibly convince me that you think that is anything other than a hope to profit from a mis-click

 

[ajqtrz]

@ajqtrz So you are wasting your goods by trading them for a bad price and that is supposed to be an argument for what exactly? I can't follow.

Let's look at this another way. I had 20 million gems. I can't imagine those gems will be needed any time soon, so I looked for a way to part with some of them, in this case 1/2. Now I could put up some "fair" trades...like 100k gems for 100k dust, and 100k elixer. If I did that I would then have 5 million dust and 5 million elixer, but what if nobody wants my gems at "even steven" for dust and/or elixer? The abundance of gems means almost everybody has a surplus so why would the trade at "even" for what they don't need? So I made a decision: I would rather have 1/2 the amount in T2 now, when I need it, than sit on 20M of gems until I can trade them for the other T3. The time factor is what I purchased with the large discount. (I did try 100k gems for 140k T2, then 135k T2 and then 130k and so on. They finally sold at 100k gems for 100k T2.) So your basic premise that the price was "bad" is where you misunderstand. The price was good because I'm the one who decided what my gems were worth for me and included the time it would take to get rid of them if I priced the too high...meaning at not enough discount.

The inverse of 100kgems for 100k T2 is a far better deal than the one I quoted, which was the equivalent of 100k t2 for 300k gems. It's been sitting there for several days, so it's not in internal push trasnfer. You can't possibly convince me that you think that is anything other than a hope to profit from a mis-click

Sorry if I didn't get the actual ratio right. I'm a lazy mathematician. On the other hand, does it matter? The one posting either expects somebody to take his/her trades or doesn't. If he/she does then they may have measured the way others play and found that some don't pay attention to what they are clicking upon and he/she can take advantage of that. If I walk onto a used car lot and fail to have an independent mechanic inspect the car before I buy it, only to find out later it's transmission is about to go, who's fault is that? My point is, as the Roman said, "caveat emptor." The buy is responsible for closing the deal and is the last defense against a deal he/she would consider "bad." Every "bad" deal is probably "good" for somebody and even if they are being sneaky in what they post. It appears to me the inattentiveness of the one taking the trade should teach them after a couple times, to pay more attention and, perhaps, slow down. Due diligence is the responsibility of the buyer.

As for being so certain that the person is "out to get you," is not wise, I think. Yes, you may be right...in fact you may be 100% right, but, as I've pointed out, there may actually be players who are just trying to use what they have to get more for their city and don't realize what their posts actually appear to be to some other players. And that would mean there is a possibility that this person is not consciously using what might be called "trickery." And as long as there is a possibility, I'll pass on the judgement.

AJ

 

[Ashrem]

Sorry if I didn't get the actual ratio right. I'm a lazy mathematician. On the other hand, does it matter?

Yes, it matters, and the ratio is ludicrously different. And it isn't a miscalculation. When I sent a message asking if an earlier batch were in error, the user doubled-down and posted more, and worse, trades. You are attempting to rationalize something which can, in my estimation, do you no good. You may or may not care about that, but be aware that further arguments should be provided only with an intent to sway others. I am comfortable in my interpretation of this situation.

 

[BrinDarby]

Untill the useless and harmfull trade fee is eliminated,
the discussion of "Fair" in trading is Moot !!!! otherwise
in every situation you 1st have ask, is a trade fee involved,
how much is the fee, and which player is paying the fee.
Next you'll have to ask what total Boost% is each person at,
and yess that includes any modifiers like a AW.
Remember just cause a trade is "fair" does Not effect if it
is expensive, even, or cheap. Next you have to have a real
cost-to-produce for each good.... Then and only then can
you determine , in between 2 players, a trade is "fair", and
only if you stay within 1 type of good ( std/sent/asc )

Not only is it every player's duty to police thier own mis-clicks,
ie- try not to make them, and own up to thier mistake if they
make one............... but its also up to each player to decide what
they think is "fair", not for a FS to dictate policy....
I don't know how many times now, I've need'd some goods, in
small qtys, that I'd pay thru the nose for , just to save me a few
hours waiting for my production to finish. Thats when even
up to 2:1, is a pretty good deal, certainly not unfair, hahahaha.

Instead of a US vs THEM mentality, lets just join forces and
emplore Inno to give us the filters necessary to make ppl happy.

 

[Killy-]

@ajqtrz Why do you need t2 suddenly? I thought after the first chapters everyone has those in abundance and the only good use for them is tournament and spire. But let's assume you need t2, how come you don't have enough but you have 20kk t3? Just change your factories and you should be fine?

 

[Ashrem]

How aobut a "Reject Offer" button? No filter, so I have to look at all the crap once, but at least only once until it gets replaced?

 

[Ashrem]

Untill the useless and harmfull trade fee is eliminated,

Harmful, yes, useless, no. I expect it does what it is intended ot do, by the people who are driving hte game. It drives expansion/scouting, which drives diamond sales, and it pushes people into fellowships which improves player retention.

 

[ajqtrz]

@ajqtrz Why do you need t2 suddenly? I thought after the first chapters everyone has those in abundance and the only good use for them is tournament and spire. But let's assume you need t2, how come you don't have enough but you have 20kk t3? Just change your factories and you should be fine?

Excellent question! I was imbalanced because I kept "helping" smaller player who put up Gems for T2. In other words, I made the mistake of thinking I was helping (and I was helping a few) when I was actually not only not helping those few, but not helping the markets to be balanced! It works like this. If I take what I don't need I am stockpiling what I don't need...right? If I stockpile what I don't need then I am telling those producing what I don't need that I actually need it, (because why would you purchase what you don't need?). So the production imbalance has no need to change and that makes for pages and pages of T3 for T1 or T2. The solutions suggested of trading everything for 2 star, no mattter whats on either end, and not having cross tier trades, doesn't work because it doesn't address, but justifies, the over production of T3. Why would anybody switch production when all their trades are taken?

On the other hand, if everybody takes only trades that benefit them (without the benefit of "helping" others) all those T3 trades will sit there until the players offering them begin to see that they can't move their T3 (which means it's not the same value as T2 and T1 in spite of what the star system says), and switch to producing T1 or T2), And bringing production back into balance is a solution that works to bring inventory into balance. And if inventory is balanced and production is balanced, most of those those cross tier trades and zero star trades will go away. Most, not all, of course.

Yes, it matters, and the ratio is ludicrously different. And it isn't a miscalculation. When I sent a message asking if an earlier batch were in error, the user doubled-down and posted more, and worse, trades. You are attempting to rationalize something which can, in my estimation, do you no good. You may or may not care about that, but be aware that further arguments should be provided only with an intent to sway others. I am comfortable in my interpretation of this situation.

Thanks for recognizing you could be wrong. I take "which can, in my estimation" to be an admission that your estimate is not simply a "certainty" but and estimate, of the players motives. It may not be as clear as I'd like, but I'm just trying to get people to refrain from "certain" judgements since such judgements make the player into a "certain jerk."

On another line and meant as a question for all, "what's with the anti-profit" thing? If you take 3 star trades aren't you profiting? And it's even easier to take 3 star trades since you aren't looking at them and saying, "yikes, profit is there, can't take that!" But if you see a zero star or no star trades, is it really a bad thing that the one posting those trades gets some, or even a lot, of profit? I do wonder how many miss-clicks occur to the profit of the player in comparison to miss-clicks that harm the one accepting the trade? Probably a ration of 4-5 to 1 (just an "off the top of my head estimate), but nobody complains about that, do they! It is true, I think, that the disparity of goods is probably less in the three star trades, than in a zero star or even one star trade, but the presence of profit isn't different. I suppose the only real consistent answer is that those who complain about the miss-clicks that cause them to take zero and one star trades should be complaining about the 3 star miss-clicks as much and/or refuse to take any 3 star trades as they are that evil thing called "profit."

And finally, it may not be profit, per se, that is the problem, but the "insane" amount of profit. On the other hand, if there were a 3 star trade of the same scale and ratio or profit, would you take it? Honestly, you probably would, not by a miss-click, but intentionally. Who wouldn't? So in the end what's the problem with profit except perhaps that is isn't your profit? (overstated a bit, me thinks as I doubt those hating profit really hate profit, but, instead, hate unnecessary loss).

AJ

 

[Jianju]

There is a disturbing trend in the Trader these days. A majority of people are posting seemingly fair trades for 3-tier downward goods. I find this practice to not just be rude and exploitative but insulting. Since lower goods require considerably more time and space, our primary resources, these are not by any definition “fair trades”.

If there were ether a better definition of a fair trade or perhaps an exclusion feature for these with type of trades in the Trader, perhaps this scam would be less attractive and as such, discouraged.

If cross tier trades are inherently wrong and the stars given them unfair, then I don't see it as much a player problem as a problem the game developers have to fix. That being said, I almost always trade in the same tier.

 

[Myne]

Yes, it matters, and the ratio is ludicrously different. And it isn't a miscalculation. When I sent a message asking if an earlier batch were in error, the user doubled-down and posted more, and worse, trades. You are attempting to rationalize something which can, in my estimation, do you no good. You may or may not care about that, but be aware that further arguments should be provided only with an intent to sway others. I am comfortable in my interpretation of this situation.

Trolls abound. The six o'clock position is more prominent in some than in others, and SOME are nothing but a six o'clock position. I see more than a few lately.

 

[Ashrem]

Thanks for recognizing you could be wrong. I take "which can, in my estimation" to be an admission that your estimate is not simply a "certainty" but and estimate,

Yes. That's what I meant, and that's why I bolded "my." I hope it helped to point it out?

On another line and meant as a question for all, "what's with the anti-profit" thing?

Few people have an issue with reasonable profit. We face enough unreasonable profit int he real world that we don't need to acquiesce to it here.

 

[Ashrem]

Thanks for recognizing you could be wrong. I take "which can, in my estimation" to be an admission that your estimate is not simply a "certainty" but and estimate, of the players motives. It may not be as clear as I'd like, but I'm just trying to get people to refrain from "certain" judgements since such judgements make the player into a "certain jerk."

In retrospect, It's possible you have taken the wrong form of "estimation." "My estimation" was used in that message in the sense of my opinion of the value of your arguments, not something numerical. As in: The arguments a person uses may raise or lower their status in my estimation.

 

[SoulsSilhouette]

How aobut a "Reject Offer" button? No filter, so I have to look at all the crap once, but at least only once until it gets replaced?

That is a brilliant suggestion!!!!

 

[Katwick]

Or a Blocked User list.

 

[Dhurrin]

Actually, not true, at least in some cases. I just checked and in my chapter, Sorcerers and Dragons, a marble manufactory (my boost) upgraded to its highest potential (level 23) gives 290 marble per 3-hr production run (base production, not counting relic boost). A gem manufactory (also my boost) upgraded to its highest potential (level 19) gives 247 gems per 3-hr production run. The gem manufactory has a footprint of 20 squares, while the marble only takes 18. The gems are also 13.62 times more expensive to produce (7900 supplies and 79000 gold vs. 580 supplies and 5800 gold), meaning they need more workshops and residences to support that production. People down-tier trading are actually losing out by quite a bit in terms of space and costs if they are producing those T3 from factories. If they're just excess goods from event buildings, well, then, there's no harm in them trying to even out their goods.

In fact, it can be quite nice sometimes to be able to pick those crosstiers up. I haven't placed any myself because of the hate I see against them on the forum but my late-chapter-5 city has been avoiding putting down a T3 manufactory since they're such space and population hogs and event buildings will mostly start giving me T3 in chapter 6. However, I was running low on T3 trying to finish the requisite provinces to get into chapter 6 but I've got way more T2 and T1 than I needed thanks to the Dwarven Citadel set, so I was able to take a bunch of those trades from the trader, and it was a great boost to my city. Usually, I just scroll past them but there's no harm in them being there, and they may actually be extremely helpful to someone, as in my case.

Except that coins and supplies are much, much easier to come by than space. Coins and supplies are, at least in the later chapters, available in overabundance. Especially since one can now win magical residences and workshops in the Spire.
I'm in chap 20 and run my entire city (usually about 30 factories total+ of course the armories and the troops) on just 2 spelled magical workshops. Coins have, after the first few chapters, never been an issue either.

I usually don't take cross-tier trades unless it is inside my FS, but PLEASE, PLEASE add a filter to the trader to filter out the cross-tier trades

 

[Dhurrin]

Most people seem to forget one (possible) reason for the downtrades; the ability to buy KPs with goods. The cost of buying KPs with T3 goods is so much lower than T1, so it is far more efficient to place more T3 factories than T1 or T2 factories. Why would I want to pay 74.000 T1 goods for 1 KP, when I can pay 30.000 T3 goods? Especially since the rise in the amount needed is so much steeper in the T1 goods than the T3 goods?
So placing more T3 factories is far more attractive.
In the first few chapters the difference is slight, and people struggle with space, coins and supplies. But later on, the coins and supplies are a non-issue, coins and supplies are literally in overabundance almost all the time, (I use the rip-off saler at least once for each good every day to get rid of the excess coins and supplies).

And someone noticed they don't see a lot of T3 goods asked for in the catering in tourneys. I fight 95% of the tourney, but do keep an eye on the catering costs. I see no shortage in the need of T3 needed in catering.