Fair Trades?

[Ashrem]

Actually, not true, at least in some cases. I just checked and in my chapter, Sorcerers and Dragons, a marble manufactory (my boost) upgraded to its highest potential (level 23) gives 290 marble per 3-hr production run (base production, not counting relic boost). A gem manufactory (also my boost) upgraded to its highest potential (level 19) gives 247 gems per 3-hr production run. The gem manufactory has a footprint of 20 squares, while the marble only takes 18. The gems are also 13.62 times more expensive to produce (7900 supplies and 79000 gold vs. 580 supplies and 5800 gold), meaning they need more workshops and residences to support that production. People down-tier trading are actually losing out by quite a bit in terms of space and costs if they are producing those T3 from factories. If they're just excess goods from event buildings, well, then, there's no harm in them trying to even out their goods.

The math has been done to death. @SoggyShorts went to the extremes of laying out comparable cities just to show how ridiculous the ratios are:

https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/fair-trades-are-they-really.12036/#post-68146

After looking at that, then go through the links in
https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/fair-trades-are-they-really.12036/#post-68153 and then make a case for why gems are more expensive to produce and maybe we can all do it all over again for chuckles.

 

[MaidenFair]

@Ashrem, I skimmed through the threads you linked, although I had seen many of them already, just to make sure I wasn't missing something. I am not trying to rehash old arguments; however, those threads are old and the ratios which were being argued against and compared are no longer used in the trader, so the math shown is no longer particularly relevant, at least to the discussion we're having. The original post in this thread that I was responding to didn't reference trading *ratios*, just production values. I was disagreeing with the statement that it is cheaper in time, costs, and space to produce T3 than the other tiers, which on a one-for-one ratio, it is clearly not.

Thanks to your prompting, however, I dug a little deeper this morning and discovered that even accounting for a 2.25:1 production ratio as suggested by the trader, marble is actually 17% cheaper to produce in terms of space than gems and that's without accounting for all the coin needed for the gems. If you add enough residences to account for the missing coins, then the marble takes 27% fewer squares to produce. (I ran the numbers in Sorcerers and Dragons for a human; I imagine the outcome could vary depending on whether you had recently unlocked new upgrades for one tier vs another, and possibly from elf to human.)

Spoiler: Marble 2.25 production - 392 squares

Spoiler: Gems without accounting for coins - 473 squares

Spoiler: Gems with coins accounted for - 537 squares

Because of the stigma against cross-tier trades, many players also offer them at a discount, which makes it even more unfavourable for those offering T3 in favour of lower tiers. However, since most event buildings that offer goods past chapter 5 give T3, it is entirely possible to have a city with no T3 manufactories at all and still be gaining more T3 than one needs, so some players are offering cross-trades out of that surplus. I don't think there's a way to measure fairness on that, since the productions vary by building as well as chapter.

All that being said, I was not originally arguing in favor of the game's definition of fair trades, even as adjusted to the current ratios of 2.25:1.5:1 some time after those threads you linked, since T1 has more value in the game, being needed in greater quantities, and is simultaneously harder to obtain in later chapters, as @SoggyShorts has recently argued here. Between the competing facts that T1 is needed almost twice as much but is also roughly 2.5x cheaper to produce, yet there are fewer options beside building manufactories for producing it...I almost wonder if a straight 1:1:1 valuation wouldn't be the most even, after taking all the factors into consideration? I'd have to do a lot more math before I committed myself to that idea, though.

 

[Ashrem]

Thanks to your prompting, however, I dug a little deeper this morning and discovered that even accounting for a 2.25:1 production ratio as suggested by the trader, marble is actually 17% cheaper to produce in terms of space than gems and that's without accounting for all the coin needed for the gems.

The math in those old discussions is what Inno used to make the current setup, so it remains relevant.

It is 17% cheaper to produce marble with the specific race and chapter and building options.

The problem with using any specific example (i.e. marble vs gems above), and which Inno faced in making their decisions of what constitutes a "fair" trade, is that all of the ratios of those variables are slightly different in each chapter, and between human and elf, and depending on what event buildings a user has. They had no choice but to rationalize something as close to average as they could, with considerable input from people who spent a great deal of time and energy helping, and nothing that any individual can calculate to say anything else is going to cover all of the cases. Averages are all they can work with.

 

[Katwick]

it is entirely possible to have a city with no T3 manufactories at all and still be gaining more T3 than one needs, so some players are offering cross-trades out of that surplus. I don't think there's a way to measure fairness on that, since the productions vary by building as well as chapter.

Folks seem to overlook using The Spire to bleed off any excess of unboosted goods. When you have more slots than item types, why not use your LEAST flexible item type to plug the hole? As you can use Wholesale Trades (at 5:1 or worse - ouch) to clear everything BUT unboosted goods, they're an obvious choice when you need to duplicate something that you're likely to lose.

"Fairness" is an odd duck. There nothing wrong with an efficient market; fairness only needs a Willing Buyer and a Willing Seller. In my mind "Unfairness" only exists when "The Rules" are cumbersome.

 

[Yogi Dave]

"Fairness" is an odd duck

I treat the term "fairness" as what Inno labels at a 2-star trade. While not perfect by any means (nothing ever is), the 1:1.5:2.25 is much more reasonable than the original 1:4:16 ratios for 2-star trades.

 

[Katwick]

In the Trader you post quantities,
rather than values, so:

• T1:T2:T3 (quantities)
• 2.25:1.5:1 (fair-trade ratio of 1.5)
• 9:6:4 (math fractions × 4)
• 90:60:40 for small cities
• 900:600:400 for balancing
• 9000:6000:4000 if you're hurting

 

[Nerwa]

However, since most event buildings that offer goods past chapter 5 give T3

Historically that's been true (speaking as a ch 8 player with far too many examples of such buildings). However, I've noticed in the last few events a shift away from that:

• Autumn Zodiac: Only 1 of 3 new production buildings produces T3s (Succulent Crabs, ch 6-8). Witty Raccoon goes from T1s to T2s, then jumps to Divine Seeds & T4/T5. Luscious Cakes is perma-T1.
• Gateway into the Past: Only 2 of 7 Dwarven Citadel Set buildings produce T3s at all, for limited chapters (ch 7 in Temple of the Sun & Moon; ch 7 & 8 in Moon Vendor). Three other Set buildings produce T1s until switching to T4s in ch 12. Of the 4 new non-set buildings only Lunar Factory produces goods at all, with T3s for ch 6-8.
• Lucky Little Fin: Out of 5 new buildings, only Glory of the Nimble produces goods. Depending how evolved it is, it can start producing T3s earlier than usual - which can actually benefit lower-chapter cities that don't have many T3 prize buildings. Alternatively, by under-evolving it a higher chapter city can get T2s from it (for ch 8, T2s are produced up to Stage 7).

I'm hoping this is an intentional effort by Inno to reduce the long-term T3 glut & that future events will continue to offer non-T3 options for the ch 6 & up crowd.

 

[SoggyShorts]

as @SoggyShorts has recently argued here.

And then last night here. I did have a pretty strong feeling of deja vu writing that I even found that same spreadsheet to use for my numbers... so the ol' memory might not be what it used to be but at least I'm consistent I guess?

T1 is needed almost twice as much but is also roughly 2.5x cheaper to produce, yet there are fewer options beside building manufactories for producing it...I almost wonder if a straight 1:1:1 valuation wouldn't be the most even, after taking all the factors into consideration? I'd have to do a lot more math before I committed myself to that idea, though.

Yeah, as you pointed out your marbles are level 23 and gems 19. When those even out it's a slightly different picture.
iirc I did the calculations for every available chapter(at the time) and used the best roads/culture for each. Now that we get free diamonds and magic res/ws it would probably be worth factoring those in too.

What makes it much harder these days to do fair calculations is all of the goods that we get from event buildings. Making a fair assumption of what buildings a player would have in each chapter would be nearly impossible, and with each event would require an update.

One assumption that is really safe though: "1:1 same-tier trades are even"

Also worth noting:
Many advanced players have coins as a non-factor for productions (I have zero residences and still have to buy KP for coins every day).
The same goes for culture- I haven't had a pure culture building in my city for several years.
And actually, after a quick look tools are a total non-factor for me as well: My rather modest level 11 Prosperity towers gives me over 100K every 3h, and to start all 10 of my factories costs under 50k
When training troops and making orcs requires 4.5 million tools the cost to fire up a factory is basically a rounding error.

 

[SoggyShorts]

On production costs:

Honestly? Forget factories. In the last event that I paid attention to I got some shaman buildings at 3x3 which give 1400 pop and 5k planks.
I got them because my Steel factories make 10k in 25 sq and cost 15,000 pop.
Today the prize is a 2x5 that gives 2,000 pop and 9k goods!

I thought inflation in RL was high...

Will this trend continue? What about players who start after and miss such rewards, or simply have terrible luck? With so many factors changing the balance, finding a fair ratio for cross-trades is going to be rather elusive.

 

[Yogi Dave]

Honestly? Forget factories

If you do the storyline quests, which I love even when frustrating, you need to level most of the normal buildings to progress through the quests. However, if you don't do the quests or have stopped advancing through the chapters, it is a totally different story.

Using stats and EA to look at your Winyandor city, it appears that you have been hanging out at the beginning of chapter 16 since April. The only non-event buildings you have at chapter 16 level are the magic workstations. A lot, if not most, of your event buildings are level 16. Interesting play style and becoming more and more common since the tourney mechanics changed. Well, maybe not the removal of all houses part, though it's not a bad idea.

 

[Smooper]

Historically that's been true (speaking as a ch 8 player with far too many examples of such buildings). However, I've noticed in the last few events a shift away from that:

• Autumn Zodiac: Only 1 of 3 new production buildings produces T3s (Succulent Crabs, ch 6-8). Witty Raccoon goes from T1s to T2s, then jumps to Divine Seeds & T4/T5. Luscious Cakes is perma-T1.
• Gateway into the Past: Only 2 of 7 Dwarven Citadel Set buildings produce T3s at all, for limited chapters (ch 7 in Temple of the Sun & Moon; ch 7 & 8 in Moon Vendor). Three other Set buildings produce T1s until switching to T4s in ch 12. Of the 4 new non-set buildings only Lunar Factory produces goods at all, with T3s for ch 6-8.
• Lucky Little Fin: Out of 5 new buildings, only Glory of the Nimble produces goods. Depending how evolved it is, it can start producing T3s earlier than usual - which can actually benefit lower-chapter cities that don't have many T3 prize buildings. Alternatively, by under-evolving it a higher chapter city can get T2s from it (for ch 8, T2s are produced up to Stage 7).

I Have just put in my set buildings of the Dwarven Citadel and 4 of 6 give me T3 goods and 2 give mana and one gives nothing but culture and population so I am quite confused by this statement. None give any T1 or T2 goods.

 

[Lady Dastardly]

@Smooper, are you sure you're talking about the Dwarven Citadel set? It looks to me like you have the Forbidden Ruins set out, which is a heavy T3 & mana producer.
The Citadel set at Ch. 9 would give you:
Caves of Dusk - steel
Gates of Dawn - planks
Gaming Lounge - marble
*in addition to a whole host of other stuff

 

[Smooper]

@Lady Dastardly Ooops, you're right. I have been contemplating putting out my dwarven citadel but I am a building shy so I am keeping it in my storage. Dwarven Citadel was a recent prize, though, that heavily skews toward T3.

The only other thing I have to say about "fair trades" is that people can post what they want but as far as trades that offer anything I need, there just are not any. I have to create my own trades to get Tier to Tier goods. 85% of the trades in my trader are T3 goods looking for T1 or T2. My own fellowship is very bad at this and I have mades posts two different times to get their goods balanced out as I was no longer taking anyone's T3 goods for other tiers.

 

[crackie]

I have been contemplating putting out my dwarven citadel but I am a building shy so I am keeping it in my storage.

You don’t need the full set to get the vitality surge.

 

[MaidenFair]

The problem with using any specific example (i.e. marble vs gems above), and which Inno faced in making their decisions of what constitutes a "fair" trade, is that all of the ratios of those variables are slightly different in each chapter, and between human and elf, and depending on what event buildings a user has. They had no choice but to rationalize something as close to average as they could, with considerable input from people who spent a great deal of time and energy helping, and nothing that any individual can calculate to say anything else is going to cover all of the cases. Averages are all they can work with.

Agreed. My comment about the trade ratios was just an off-hand, "I wonder" type of thing, not a serious call for change.

Yeah, as you pointed out your marbles are level 23 and gems 19. When those even out it's a slightly different picture.
iirc I did the calculations for every available chapter(at the time) and used the best roads/culture for each. Now that we get free diamonds and magic res/ws it would probably be worth factoring those in too.

They don't really even out though because the upgrades for each are available in different chapters, so they're never at the same numeric level for more than one out of three chapters.
I'm going to do more test city scenarios on EA in the next few days because of the three scenarios with various chapters and boosts that I've tried so far, only one has actually come out to favouring T3 producers (and then only by 3 squares). Maybe I've hit on the only three anomalies in the data. My curiosity is piqued.

What makes it much harder these days to do fair calculations is all of the goods that we get from event buildings. Making a fair assumption of what buildings a player would have in each chapter would be nearly impossible, and with each event would require an update.

One assumption that is really safe though: "1:1 same-tier trades are even"

Agreed.

Also worth noting:
Many advanced players have coins as a non-factor for productions (I have zero residences and still have to buy KP for coins every day).
The same goes for culture- I haven't had a pure culture building in my city for several years.
And actually, after a quick look tools are a total non-factor for me as well: My rather modest level 11 Prosperity towers gives me over 100K every 3h, and to start all 10 of my factories costs under 50k
When training troops and making orcs requires 4.5 million tools the cost to fire up a factory is basically a rounding error.

On production costs:

Honestly? Forget factories. In the last event that I paid attention to I got some shaman buildings at 3x3 which give 1400 pop and 5k planks.
I got them because my Steel factories make 10k in 25 sq and cost 15,000 pop.
Today the prize is a 2x5 that gives 2,000 pop and 9k goods!

Fair points. I suspect those might be side benefits of being a fighter, however, because as a trader/negotiator/caterer-type person, I'm nowhere close to being able to ignore coins, supplies, or factories, despite having many event buildings in my city (I have been able to completely ignore culture numbers since about chapter 5, though). Maybe that comes in the later chapters, since I'm a few weeks away from Halflings right now... Every time I place an expansion, upgrade a few wonder levels, or research a tech, I need a little more production of *everything* if I want to remain at the same Spire and tourney participation levels, and I can't rely on magically (heh heh) having the event buildings I need in my inventory at the level I need when I need them, whereas I can always throw up a new factory or residence at a moment's notice. Plus event buildings take RRs or loooots of diamonds to upgrade every new chapter, and even my 13-chest, Silver Spire+ fellowship can't give me enough of either of those to keep everything I've got current. I'm not knocking event buildings, by any means, because I use them extensively but at least with my build I can't use them exclusively.

(Total side note: how are everyone's Prosperity Towers numbers so much better than mine?? Even if I upgraded my Main Hall to its highest available level, which I just unlocked yesterday, the PT would only give me about what a Magic Workshop from last chapter gives in 3 hours, and I would have to upgrade it to level 11 to get the same production as sparkling that old MW. )

 

[SummerAmbrosia]

Since I'm extremely dependent on the trades I put out...I put 2 and 3 star trades across the board.
No cross trades, including sentient goods.
I will offer deals to my fellowship frequently. Most of my fellowship take my trades and decline deals.
I used to check out the trader but no more. It annoyed me, especially the unfairness of the trades.
My trades last about one hour and I put out a slew of them.
My game is my game. I don't like to feel annoyed, especially playing a GAME.
The OP has a point and I wasn't going to read this thread, but I'm glad I did.
The issue has been discussed a lot, but for me; newcomers and others should be reminded until something is done.
You can't fix greed, I have no idea how this would be addressed.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

"Fair" is a very misleading word to use because it varies so widely across chapters, factory levels, human or elf (in the 1st 8 chapters), how the goods are produced, how you use the goods, etc. The Star formula means that a 2-star trade is equal based on the costs to produce your boosted good in a factory and for your trade partner to do the same. It factors in the space needed for the factory and supporting residences and workshops, and maybe even the space needed for the connecting roads. It also assumes you and your trading partner are making goods in factories of the same level. This is the Base for the calculations and Inno cannot program the trade ratio for all the many different scenarios that make the production cost higher for one person versus the other making the trade.

@MaidenFair probably because they have an ridiculously high culture bonus, which boosts workshop production, but not that from the Prosperity Towers. In my chapter 17 city, my MW gives a base of 82k supplies in 3 hours and my level 13 PT gives 162k in 3 hours. If I had some crazy culture boost like 300 or 400%, that would jump the MW to making 240 to 320k in 3 hours. And some of the posters are talking about having 600 or 700% culture bonus. And all that is without a PoP applied to the MW.

 

[Killy-]

@MaidenFair If you have fun with the EA (I tried and gave up - no fun found), then try adding a lvl 30 GA and Mountainhall and use magic houses instead of the normal ones.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

There is a disturbing trend in the Trader these days. A majority of people are posting seemingly fair trades for 3-tier downward goods. I find this practice to not just be rude and exploitative but insulting. Since lower goods require considerably more time and space, our primary resources, these are not by any definition “fair trades”.

If there were ether a better definition of a fair trade or perhaps an exclusion feature for these with type of trades in the Trader, perhaps this scam would be less attractive and as such, discouraged.

Are you aware that for T1-2-3 trading T1 up is more lucrative than trading T3 down?

Producing 2.25 T1 takes less space then Producing 1 T3

 

[Killy-]

Producing 2.25 T1 takes less space then Producing 1 T3

nope