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    Your Elvenar Team

Fellowship Adventure - Fellowship Badge Pools; instead of individual badge pools

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
I know there is a general format kept to for posts in this thread. But this idea is a long (typed out) one i typed up in the FA thread in general discussion. So i dont want to redo the whole thing, so im just going to quote it.

Summery:
The idea is simple enough. Change out the current FA's system of individual badge pools and make a fellowship badge pool instead.
Currently. when we make our badges, they go into our own individual pool and each player used them individually.
Instead i propose all the players badges made go into a 'fellowship badge pool' where all the badges can be used to help the fs's progression in the FA.
It might seem an odd thought at first, but i think this would yeild many positive aspects to players.

Details: ... my long quoted idea from the fa feedback earlier today...
The Fa itself was unchanged, so anything noteworthy i probably mentioned last fa. So i wont restate the whole thing.

But there is one point i do feel is worth mentioning again.

The UI needs some improvement before ppl go crazy. And yes, i do fully acknowledge and appreciate the UI changes over the last year or two in FAs. Such as the the method we now collect badges, instead of the old, cancel 10 times to get back method. That was a massive help. But with the drastic increase of FA's.. the system needs improvement. Ppl say all the time they are getting/got tired of FA's. But i think a better UI/system would help alleviate that.

Honestly, in terms of group cooperation, this was a horrible FA for my FS. - And my fs is a good one. We are doing better then we have in ages. Tourney has improved, spire has improved. And we finished all 3 paths on all 3 maps of the FA and went to the pit. - We do well. But the 'group cooperation' aspect was rather poor this time. We once finished #8 on our server without any intentions of trying for score/points. But now... 6000 fa's later... ppl rly don't seem to care any more. And i know that goes well beyond just my fs. (Even our servers top FA FS.. they have hit #1 for as long as iv been watching fa records. The #2 wouldnt even come close to touching them. They dominated FA every single FA that iv seen... Even there fs apparently said 'screw it' this time. As they did a combined '0 points'.. So even the top fa players are getting tired of this.

Ill skip over how we set things up and run the fa, im sure that will change with the FS in question. And ill jump to the fact that probably around 75% of the ppl still made badges, but would not take part in any of the 'group' accepts of the fa. This was not a group event for us this time. It felt more like a massive group of individuals, playing individually. And that really hinders progress in something like an FA.

There is also the issue of 'wasted badges'. Both in terms of making to many of one badge, and being away from the game for real life during the last day of the fa so they cant use any of there badges. What ever the reason, ppl generally dont like 'wasting badges'. - And i dont blame them on that.

Over all, i think something needs to be done to ease the pressure on the players. And i think that can be done without having to drastically change the FA as a whole. (Probably not a bad idea there, but one step at a time' ).

You've made the act of collecting the badges much easier. You changed that around completely and it helped everyone that does fa's out. But it did not change the over all fa system. - Im talking about more changes like that. An improvement to the UI that made massive impact but not altering the events core intent.

Now im sure everyone will have there own ideas, This following one is just mine. But im trying to keep it in the same spirit as the badge collection change i just mentioned , while trying to address the issues i mentioned as well.

And my first thought is a 'fs badge pool'. - Now this idea is nothing new. Every player has an individual badge pool each fa. We all have that list that shows each badge and how many of each badge we have... thats the individual badge pool.
What i suggest is a FS Badge Pool instead. When players make there badges, they go to the FS badge pool instead of an individual badge pool. And the whole fs can see the numbers of the FS badge pool.

Sounds fairly small and simple. But i think it would help in many ways to alleviate pressure on players and maybe even make players that dont really care.. more active in the FA.

Having a FS badge pool instead of an individual one means no longer does anyone have to post the badges they collected. Trying to get everyone to post what they are making or have collected is a major pain. To many ppl are in a hurry, forget, lose count with so many badges... or simply dont care to do so. And when to many dont post, the badge count becomes very inaccurate. Its also a lot of work for the player that has to keep the count. - So alleviating that aspect would be far less pressure on players.

A Fs badge pool instead of an individual one would also mean that players dont have to worry as much about wasted badges from not being able to log in at the right time, every time. All the players badges would go to the fs badge pool so all players badges would be able to be used as needed. This would allow most fs to actually get further in the FA event itself.
This would also make every player important to the FA effort. And on the flip side, it would make it so the FS wouldnt get screwed over by a single player. Intentionally or unintentional.
For example; i go production crazy during FAs. This last Fa i made about 535 badges on my one city alone. (I have two. So total was probably over 1000) I like to think that helps out my FS a decent bit. The previous 2 fa's before this last one, my internet connection went out. Took a couple days to get it fixed. Which ment a couple days before i could get back on to the game. Under the individual badge pool system, my fs was jsut screwed out of my badges. The badges were right there.. but they couldnt use them. To no fault of there own. To no fault of my own. But thats how it is. - Under a Fs Badge pool, they would have had access to all the badges i made. They would be able to use them, help the fs out, get further in the FA, and not have to stress out about losing that many badges unexpectedly and without time to replace them. And i think thats a massive benefit.

A fs badge pool also means less pressure on things needed to be done when you log on. With the fa's new badges spanning the spectrum now, there is a lot to do for an FA. All combined it can take a lot of time. Massively more for those that have multiple cities. The fs badge pool would help to simplify that. - I have only two cities and iv run FA's for the last few years. Doing every part of my duties combined.. i can spend 3h~ getting everything done when i log on sometimes. Granted, i go a bit crazy in fa's.. but still. - Many ppl dont have that kind of time to invest all at once. They have these things call 'lives' that they generally live. So the FS badge pool would mean they could log in, collect everything, set everything, and be done. Because there badges went right to the fs badge pool, they didnt have to worry about the map, and they didnt have to report it. It saves players time and energy and sure enough.. stress. Ppl have enough of that at this point in history. They dont need more added from a game.
This would be similar to the 'Challenges' system you guys use every now and then. Its a pretty stress free mini event. Players make things, collect things and see if they reach the end. No pressure. The fs badge pool, as just stated, brings players closer to that same thing. Collect badges, set productions, hope it reaches the end. So you already have a mini event that proves the idea of simplicity in an event that can still be good/fun.

So the FS badge pool instead of the individual badge pool would be a minor adjustment to the players perspective, but i think it would do a lot to help them and help alleviate the stress of the FA; while in turn encouraging more ppl to participate due to simplicity. And if you need some self interest arguments... a stressed out player thats getting sick of it all is far less likely to ever make a $$ purchase. Show them a more simplistic yet fun time and they will be more likely to make that purchase one day. So this would help inno out as well!

So all in all i think it would be nothing but benefits. And it would still be a 'group based event'. In fact i think it would be even more true. Because more ppl would be likely to participate. And every badge from every player would count to the whole in an even bigger way. I really think this is something worth trying. - There is probably more reasons.. but im a bit mentally thoughts out right now.. But i think/hope iv made my point after all that. So please try this!

So... i should probably say thank you to anyone that actually read that whole thing.
But i think it makes a good argument for a 'fs badge pool' instead of the 'individual badge pools'.
Lot of up sides that revolves around simplicity and less stress on the players.
And i think its a small/simple adjustment from the players perspective that would have a big impact on the event similar to the new badge collection system.
 

OIM20

Well-Known Member
Question: Who can apply the badges to the adventure routes? Because one of the biggest complaints is misapplying them/putting them in the wrong spot. That means the FS doesn't move forward along the route. I know you said
Having a FS badge pool instead of an individual one means no longer does anyone have to post the badges they collected.
but I'm pretty sure you meant in your own FS' chat window - "I've got 10 blacksmith", "I've got 7 farmer's" ... like that. So if they're in the pool, who applies them? The archmage? That can be a problem for the same reasons - not online, not available, etc. that you named for having the pool. The mages or the archmage, same people who can now choose a route? More likely at least one would be online.

Since someone has to apply them to the route, if this were implemented with the new function put in place during this FA to select a route, would choosing one be mandatory in order to make sure the badges got applied at all? Then it could auto-apply the pooled badges to the route, yes?

...Then what about the FS who complete all routes for scoring purposes? Would the flag still be pulled manually so that they could then go back and select the next route and let the automated system fill in the badges on each waypoint?
_________________________________​
Follow-up: Participation by putting a badge in a waypoint on the level is what determines whether the individual gets the credit towards getting a prize. How would that be determined?
_________________________________​
I'm asking questions because if this can be presented to the developers, then they'll want some idea of the structure you have in mind to keep the FA as a group effort. If only a few people in the FS are making badges because they're all going into a pool but everyone is benefitting from the prizes, I don't see this as being a change they would make. If they were willing to overhaul how the badges are collected and applied within each FS, then they would need to know that the group participation aspect - the community this is intended to foster within each group - would be preserved.

So how would you do that and still implement a pool like this?

And how would a pool like this affect the FS who compete for the top spots for those bonus prizes?

It's got merit. I just have questions. :)
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
The idea has merit; I'm interested to see the discussion around the issues raised by @OIM20
As far as the format of the original post, you just need to edit it into that format before asking a mod to review it and set it for an official vote. The rules of voting are that we are voting only on what is contained in the original post; no changes are allowed after a poll has started. The devs have only agreed to look at the original post, so they won't see any of the discussion or your linked discussion (though that made a good case for the suggestion!). Also good to know is this is a one-way path of communication. If the mods hear anything back from the devs, they'll let us know. But, that is rare and usually along the lines of 'Not what you wanted to hear, but...'
 

Sprite1313

Well-Known Member
_________________________________​
I'm asking questions because if this can be presented to the developers, then they'll want some idea of the structure you have in mind to keep the FA as a group effort. If only a few people in the FS are making badges because they're all going into a pool but everyone is benefitting from the prizes, I don't see this as being a change they would make. If they were willing to overhaul how the badges are collected and applied within each FS, then they would need to know that the group participation aspect - the community this is intended to foster within each group - would be preserved

They currently track who places badges on the waypoints to ensure group participation; maybe the tracking could just be changed to take effect when somebody dumps a badge in the pool. Only those who drop into the pool get the rewards.

I think you could still have somebody apply badges to the paths. Most FSs designate a player or two to manage the FA, so those players would have the appropriate rank (mage, ambassador) to apply the badges.

This would still give fellowships the option to fill in all points, but it would reduce the risk of applying badges to undesirable waypoints.
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
I figured the 'who would apply/use the badges' would be the first question. - My first thought would be the arch and the mages. - If everyone can apply then it would defeat a lot of the purpose. But if only the arch can, then you are back to the 'single point of failure'. If the arch isnt there or cant get on then nothing gets done. So thats no good either. - So i would suggest the Arch and the Mages.

That would also give the arch and potentially the mages to increase/decrease the amount of ppl able to place badges. Or chose specific ppl to place badges. If a fs wanted everyone to be able to, then they could do that. If a fs only wanted a select few to place them, then they could do that too. If a fs has certain players that alway go off path no matter how many times you tell them... then they could make it so those players cant place. There is actually a lot of control and a lot of options possible there.

And the arch and mages would apply thebadges the same way we do now. Only the badges are taken form the 'fs badge pool' instead of the 'individual badge pool'. So all the highlighted waypoint stuff and flag pulling stuff.. would all remain the same style as it is now.

--

but I'm pretty sure you meant in your own FS' chat window - "I've got 10 blacksmith", "I've got 7 farmer's" ... like that.
I specifically didnt go into detail on that part because i know every FS might operate a bit differently.
But for the record, i run the FA's in my fs. Have for a couple years now. What iv realized real quick is that most players do not want to bother with the details and do not want to deal with the nitty gritty, so to speak. Many just want to set there badges, collect there badges and move on. (Verified by so many complaints i see on elevnar facebook groups as well as elvenars own personal fb group)

So my approach had a simple theory to start with. Since im disabled and have the time... ill do ALL the nitty gritty work that i possibly can, in order to make every other players experience as simple and stress free as i can.
So i come up with the FS fa goal (discuss and confirm that with the arch./mages). I put together the spreedsheet. Tally up all the badges for each badge type and on each map. Come up with a game plan (usually very similar each time depending on the badge numbers required.)
I also take down every single badge that players report they are currently making as well as every badge they report they finished. Compare the total badge we have made/making to the total badges we will need for each badge type (as well as by map stage). All so i can be able to answer ppl correctly when they want to know what they should make next. With a full and accurate count i can see exactly what we have and what we need. This help to reduce wasted badges. (I also record down every badge that each player spent by looking at the numbers on the fa map itself. This becomes nessicary as i will explain.)


Thats all the crap i do every single FA... it is incredibly tedious, incredibly annoying, and incredibly time consuming. (Dont forget i also have two cities to run as well. And both cities are top teir badge producers... so a LOT of time and sanity).

Why the hell would i do all that if its that annoying? Simple... i do it all 1. because i can/i have the time. and 2. because that means noone else has to bother with any of it. The rest of the fs only has to log in, collect there stuff, set there stuff, and then go to a message thread titled 'FA Badge Productions' and make a simple post. Something like "Finished 3 carpenters, 1 coin, 2 staffs. - Started 3 farmers" . - The end. That line is the one and only thign they have to do extra. I will do all that other bull crap and be happy about it; they only have to post that 1 line.

And to be honest. It works incredibly well for doing a 3path on all 3 maps (or less) plan. (by thte time the pit hits, im exhausted...)
But it only works IF the players post that line when they collect/set badges. And sadly, the more and more fa's we get... the less ppl want to bother even posting that one post after set/collect. - And without them posting, my count becomes inaccurate.

Point being.... Even when players only have one extra thing to do... after a while... they get sick of doing it. And its a pretty common mentality i hear from players across the game. (Im not picking on my FS here, that was not the point of that. They jsut did a 3-3-3 fa run. So they did a good job on that.)
And if even that one extra thing becomes that annoying to so many ppl... then it demonstrates why UI improvements that help alleviate tasks like that would be so helpful.
With a 'fs badge pool' all the badges made from the fs would go there. We would no longer even need a badge completed count. I would know what was spent, and the pool shows how many the fs as a whole has made. - So for me and my fs personally, i would no longer need to keep that count and they would no longer have to bother posting about it. Saves a lot of time and sanity for us all.

And again, i know different fs have different ways of running there fa's. Im not trying to question that or get into that debate here.

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Follow-up: Participation by putting a badge in a waypoint on the level is what determines whether the individual gets the credit towards getting a prize. How would that be determined?
Valid question/concern. There is only two ways i see this going (tho im sure there is probably more).
1. Either a list is entered in the background (that players wouldnt see) that tracks each players contribution to the fs pool. - So right now the game tracks if each player added a badge to the map. It would have to be adjusted to tracking if each player submitted a badge to the fs badge pool.
or 2... jsut get rid of that requirement. Im sure that might annoy some ppl. But if that were the cost to get the FS badge pool, then i would gladly pay it.

--
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
I'm asking questions because if this can be presented to the developers, then they'll want some idea of the structure you have in mind to keep the FA as a group effort. If only a few people in the FS are making badges because they're all going into a pool but everyone is benefitting from the prizes, I don't see this as being a change they would make. If they were willing to overhaul how the badges are collected and applied within each FS, then they would need to know that the group participation aspect - the community this is intended to foster within each group - would be preserved.


So how would you do that and still implement a pool like this?


And how would a pool like this affect the FS who compete for the top spots for those bonus prizes?


Ask away! I always welcome constructive questions.

I think this 'fa badge pool' instead of a 'individual badge pool' does almost nothing to change the group aspect of the FA event. It still requires all the players to be making badge, making the needed badges and cooperating in that aspect as a fs group. - The actual change to the average player will be a shift..

Right now a player makes a bunch of badges, places them on the map when they are able to. But they have to align the need to be on the game at the right moment when the right badge is needed. (This leads to a lot of wasted badges)

The fs badge pool version would be almost the same in terms of the group effort.

a player would still be making a ton of badges, still have to make the right needed badges... But since they go to the fs pool, they dont have to worry about having to be on at the right moment to place them. They dont have to worry about not making it home form work in time to place them, or make it home before the fa clock ends and all those badges go to waste. They can take comfort in knowing the arch/mages can use the badges the player made when ever they are needed to help advance the entire FS progress.


So both methods the players still have to make badges, communicate and make the right, needed badges. The only thing 'being taken away' so to speak, is the potential stress of having to be on at the right time to place them. So i think the 'group aspect' remains completely in tact.


Heck, i could even argue that it might improve the group aspect of the event.

As i stated earlier, iv been running fa's for years now. Dealt with a lot of players over time. As well as scanning these game fourms, fb platinum leaf group and innos own fb elvenar group... i see a lot of opinions and complaints (sometimes even likes every now and then!)
Iv had players that opt out of FA's entirly because of the time/effort/stress involved. Iv had players that dont overly bother because they dont have the time for all the extra crap they have to do. Iv had players that stop early because they wont be home before it ends to place there badges, so whats the point of making them... and thats even if there badges are called for at that very moment.

... to sum up, iv seen a lot of reasons ppl have to opt out, to some degree, of the FA.


The 'fs badge pool' instead of the 'individual badge pool' could help with all of that.


Ppl that opt out of doing fa's entirely do not stop playing there city entirely during the event. They go about there normal business and ignore the event. But with the fs badge pool, they no longer would have to worry about placing badges. They would no longer have to worry about posting there badges made/collected. They could literally collect there stuff and set there stuff. The only thing they would have to do is click to open the badge menu. Click to collect the badge. ... ... Literally two click more then what they were already doing. - Now a player like this might not suddenly jump into the planning and organizing aspects... but they could actually contribute the the FA with next to no extra effort needed on there part. - (If you cant convince someone to give two clicks to help the fs out.. then they got a different problem.) - But for a player of this mentality.. they might find themselves participating in the FA. Which is adding to the group effort.


Players that would be out or at work during the times there badges might be needed, or be out/at work the last 8~ hours of the fa.. become less inclined to make any badges at all/participate at all... why bother if the badges wont be used anyway?

The 'fs badge pool' assures them that every badge they make has a great chance to be used to help the FS advance, even they are not home. And thats a good feeling i think. Noone likes to waste badges, it sucks. And being able to make badges but knowing you cant use them.. is worse, and very demoralizing. So them being able to know there badges are going to help both themselves and there FS is a great thing! And that would encourage them to participate. Thus increasing the group activity.


There are a few example like that. But i believe the point is made. The fs badge pool has the potential to actually increase the amount of ppl willing to participate as well as the amount that ppl participate. group (fs) badge pool = group participation


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And how would a pool like this affect the FS who compete for the top spots for those bonus prizes?

Honestly i think it would increase there productivity even more. Whether your a top competing fs or jsut trying to finish 1 path to get the reward... we are all subject to waiting for the right person with the right badge to come on at the right time in order to use there badges.

Fs badge pool means the right time can be all the time!!! All those massive amounts of badges in top competing fs would be accessible to be used my the arch/mage the moment they are completed. And would remain accessible 24/7 until they are used. They wouldnt have to wait for someone to get on; they woudl already have there badges to use. - So i think they could progress even further then before. - If inno wants to amp up competition for the top fs's in the fa... this could help do that. - And at the same time still be able to apply that benefit to all the fs's across the board.


--


It's got merit. I just have questions.


Hopefully i answered some of them. If you have more, ask away!!!
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
As far as the format of the original post, you just need to edit it into that format before asking a mod to review it and set it for an official vote. The rules of voting are that we are voting only on what is contained in the original post; no changes are allowed after a poll has started. The devs have only agreed to look at the original post, so they won't see any of the discussion or your linked discussion (though that made a good case for the suggestion!).
honestly, the idea that they wouldn't see the quote in my OP was not something that crossed my mind. But i will have to edit it and format it after the discussion for sure. Granted... editing is not my strongest suit... but ill try'
I think the details became so long that i lost most of any idea in my head of proper formatting...
 

Crow Last Elf

Well-Known Member
I am not in favour of being able to donate the badges to the pool as soon as you make them. I think the idea as presented will give the FA the same feel as the tournaments. The tournaments are a group activity, but my effort just stacks on others, it doesn't call for the co-ordination and communication that a FA does for the entire week.

If the badges were automatically or manually donated after 48 hours of non-use, then the FS who put in more effort or are better able to co-ordinate will likely progress better or maybe just sooner than FS where players passively let others fill in the waypoints. That also means that in the last 48 hours, you have to show up to donate the badges. Again rewarding FS with players who check in during that period. Encouraging players to check in often is more in line with this game's objectives rather than passive production and rewards.

Alternatively, if the pool only started for the Pit or for the last 48 hours, instead of the entire FA, I would be more in favour of the suggestion.

I think the aspect of checking for the needs of a particular waypoint and donating your badges is one of the most satisfying parts of the FA and that would be taken away from most players. I think it's inevitable that given the pressure to maximize points, FS will restrict badge placement and I don't see that as a positive for game enjoyment. I would definitely feel that the players who place the badges are getting more out of the event than me, if my badges could be donated by others.

One of your biggest concerns is badge waste. Including 1) player not having in inventory the badge that is needed next so is prevented from placing what they do have 2) player not being on when their badges are needed 3) players placing on wrong waypoint.

For 1) and 2) when a player doesn't have what is currently needed, this encourages the player to check in again and also to make more badges, including the badges needed to complete the waypoint. I think the idea takes away the incentive to check in often and to make more of the right badge. I can see the advantage of doing so, I just think some of the urgency and challenge to make the right badge will be lost. Whether that is good or bad probably differs for each player and each FS.

I could see the in-game messaging when the badges from another's inventory are used as an enhancement to the event's experience. For example, if there was an automatic message generated in chat saying "Crow used Dom's Necklaces and Sprite's Brews to complete waypoint Orange 3", that would be positive.

From reading your idea, I think one of the drivers for the suggestion is to find a way to make reporting inventory unneccessary and having a higher % of badges made actually used. I agree that the pressure to report inventory and then be available to donate that inventory is what causes the most negative stress during the FA. I hope there are other ways to manage that challenge/stress. If a FS knows it is going to get to the Pit, why not just have everyone strive to make the badge they have least of? Then at each waypoint, they will either have a few in inventory or are making them?
 

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper
One of my biggest reservations with this idea is:
Who decides what badges are used, and when? Is it everyone, or only a restricted group?
We just had a very public demonstration of issues that occur when the core of a FS goes inactive, and yet has newbie players joining them and expecting an active FS. So this then, would lead the developers to say that it should be open to everyone, to reduce the impact on both Support staff and the Forum (and social media) community.

Second issue: Should the pool be open to everyone? Ahm, no. That leaves one player dropping on map 3, blue 1 because they see the badges in the pool, never realizing (or caring) that the Blacksmith badges they see, were for a push to the top of the map.
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
From reading your idea, I think one of the drivers for the suggestion is to find a way to make reporting inventory unneccessary and having a higher % of badges made actually used. I agree that the pressure to report inventory and then be available to donate that inventory is what causes the most negative stress during the FA. I hope there are other ways to manage that challenge/stress. If a FS knows it is going to get to the Pit, why not just have everyone strive to make the badge they have least of? Then at each waypoint, they will either have a few in inventory or are making them?
I agree with Crow Last Elf on this one. Having fellows (and organizing fellows to) make and place badges where and when necessary are important aspects of the FA. While there is merit to your suggestion as a solution to some classic FA issues, I would likely not vote for it personally because it would change some basic nature of the FAs which I do enjoy. However...
I have always wanted to see a fellowship badge count included as an in-game feature of the FAs. This would greatly reduce the nitty gritty stuff of tracking/reporting badges that so many players find unpleasant, and which then falls to one or two members to take on. Then every fellow could check in-game to see which badges most need making and have a way of instantly seeing how their contribution and efforts are helping.
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
I am not in favour of being able to donate the badges to the pool as soon as you make them. I think the idea as presented will give the FA the same feel as the tournaments. The tournaments are a group activity, but my effort just stacks on others, it doesn't call for the co-ordination and communication that a FA does for the entire week.

The idea that the communication and cooperation aspect would be taken away was mentioned a few times in the last couple posts. So ill respond to all that here.

This would be no means eliminate the need for cooperation and communication. That is a core principle of the FA, and part of the reason i like doing them. - While my idea has many benefits (i think), the main actual in game change for the average player is not having to report badges finished (which to many players dont bother doing anyway), and not all players having to worry about placing badges themselves.

The badges required for the FA are still many and vast. Having a fa badge pool does not mean everyone can suddenly make random things and everything will turn out fine. They would still have to coordinate and communicate to make the right badges that will be needed for the paths that fs decides to take. That whole aspect would remain the same as it is now. - The fs badge pool would only reduce some of the more tedious things like reporting badges finished and the worry about being on at the right time.

Badges still have to be made and ppl still have to check in to collect badges and set new badges. This does not reduce the need to be on the game. If anything it increases the willingness to participate. As i mentioned before, iv seen many players that have lives, family, things to do, work, etc.. that know they wont be able to be on either at certain times or certain days or before the FA ends... they feel there badges would then be wasted. So they dont bother making anything at all. Now THAT is making ppl not log on as much, or at the very least, simply not participate in the fa event. But with a FS badge pool, they can know that even tho they are not able to be on at a specific time.. there badges, there effort, there time and energy will not go to waste. It will be appreciated and used to help the whole FS advance. And i think THAT would increase the desire to log on; increase the desire to participate in an fa event that they may not have bothered with.

So the communication and orginization aspect has not changed. And the possible desire to log on and participate could actually go up! So i see the Fs badge pool as a positive in both cases.

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One of my biggest reservations with this idea is:
Who decides what badges are used, and when? Is it everyone, or only a restricted group?
We just had a very public demonstration of issues that occur when the core of a FS goes inactive, and yet has newbie players joining them and expecting an active FS. So this then, would lead the developers to say that it should be open to everyone, to reduce the impact on both Support staff and the Forum (and social media) community.

Second issue: Should the pool be open to everyone? Ahm, no. That leaves one player dropping on map 3, blue 1 because they see the badges in the pool, never realizing (or caring) that the Blacksmith badges they see, were for a push to the top of the map.
This seems to be the first and most common questions/concern iv gotten. I did address this a bit in the Op, but ill discuss it here again.
Judging by the way you worded the concern, im guessing you realize that different ppl/different fs might want to take a different approach with how to manage who gets to place badges. One fs might only want the ppl running the FA to place them... another fs might want everyone to be able to. - Thats also part of the beauty of the idea, i think. Every FS would be able to make this discussion for themselves!

The same way the system ties being able to open a chest at the end of a map to only the mages/arch, the same would apply to being able to place the badges. Perhaps even extend it to Ambassador.

This allows the archmage and mages of each fs to make the decision for themselves. If they want everyone to be able to place them, they can make everyone an ambassador or more. If they want only a few ppl to place them, they only make a few ppl ambassador or higher. Or, if a fs has a specific person or two that always seems to go off path no matter what you say... then you can make sure that person is not an ambassador or higher. Every FS can chose for themselves what they want.

And that isnt a new idea. Thats what many FS already do. There has always been issues in the current system of ppl not paying attention 'accidently' grabbing the chest while the fs was working on the rest of the map. As such, many FS across the entire game, will demote everyone to 'fellow' status during the FA in order to guarantee no on takes the chest by accident. And at the end of the FA return everyone to what ever status they were. - Its done all the time already. And the exact same would apply to those allowed to use the badges. So it intergrates perfectly. Nothing new has to be done because its already being done.

--

However...
I have always wanted to see a fellowship badge count included as an in-game feature of the FAs. This would greatly reduce the nitty gritty stuff of tracking/reporting badges that so many players find unpleasant, and which then falls to one or two members to take on.
That is what this would help do. Eliminate the need for the harsh task of reporting and keeping that count. Because we will have a full count on screen of what is available across the whole fs. And we will see what we spend. .. So we know what we have, we know what we spent. That makes it very easy to see how much is left that needs to be made.

And I am one of those ppl that have to keep count of the entire fs right now. I keep count of whats needed each map as well as the over all totals. Keep count of every badge reported be every player that reports them. And i keep track of every badge spent by each individual player on the map. Tedious...time consuming... are understatements. So i know full well how that feels to be the one doing that. Iv been doing it for years. And in all that time.. not one single person thats been in my fs has ever said 'hey, why dont you let me do the count this time'. None wants to do it because its such a pain. In fact, as memory serves, when the last person that did the count in my fs when i joined saw my interest, she handed it over to me completely and immediately. No hesitation at all. And never asked for it back. And as i said, zero ppl since that day have wanted to do it. And i get why; it sucks. - But being disabled, i have the time to do it. So ill do my part to help the FS.

So the Fs badge pool would help out any one that does the count (as well as everyone else in the other ways I mentioned).
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
@Dominionofgod if I understand your badge pool correctly then I think the fs going for points would just make a lot of badges for most of the FA and then wait donating any of them until a few hours before it ends. So no one would know how many points any of the other competing fs have. I am not sure if this would be good or bad?
I think Dominion's idea of a badge pool is fantastic, but yeah, I'm sure you are right and people would game the system. Then again, there's nothing to stop a fellowship from gaming it now, if they all agree, and just hoarding badges until the very end. I have seen fellowships that look like they aren't doing well in the FA suddenly spurt ahead in the last few hours. So I still think a badge bank would be great.
This is called tactic, it's the way we won our second FA.
The idea is that you lull the competition in slacking because of there advantage already.
It has nothing to do with "gaming the system"

As crazywizard pointed out... hording badges until late in the event would not be a new thing brought on by the FS badge Pool idea. This is something that already goes on right now. We can argue over whether we feels its 'gaming the system' or purely 'tactics' all we want. But it is something thats already here and thus not something that the fs badge pool would bring on.

On a side note; I tend to agree with crazy wizard here about it being a tactic. If inno wants a point ranking system to encourage competition between fs to reach #1.. then fs are going to use any tactic to help themselves achieve that goal.
And whether or not a fs places them as the go or all at the end... its still the same number of badges being placed. They would still reach the same point. - At best it would be OTHER fs that might get complacent and slow down. And thats kinda there own fault (not to sound mean). But i wont blame on fs's actions on a separate/different fs.
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
I wonder if it would be a good idea to allow people to keep their badges individually, but have a separate button to "donate badges," meaning you can donate some to the bank for use when they are needed, but still have your own bank of badges. I'd certainly donate. Some players probably wouldn't, because they'd be afraid of losing something (whatever!) but you know, if you donated all your statues and then at the end of the game, the "bank" or "donation pool" or whatever had extra statues at the end, it would not feel like a personal loss. I don't think people would mind it that much then. And it would also give players a a sense of security to see that donation pool.
I thought of that as well. But in the end i figured it was jsut another step in the process that wouldnt need to be there and could cause issues. And i dont want add any complications to an idea designed to simplify things.
Linking in another question tho about how credit for the the map would be determined.. the system already tracks who places a badge on each map. If its altered slightly to track who made a badge for the fs pool then credit given would remain the same (for active participents) and there would be no need to hold on to badges individually, away form the rest of the fs.
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
...I like where this is heading. :)
Something that may need to be addressed...team mates being able to donate to all paths in play?
A level of trust and cooperation between mates and FA manager(s) would have to be secured.
It would be so nice for AM/Mages to coordinate/count/manage badges towards each Stage goal.
(Similar to a built in user friendly spreadsheet...that isn't intimidating to use by all.)

This would greatly improve FA from a management and planning standpoint, (decrease the "baby sitting") sorry...(chuckles) 24 hours a day.
Issues:
*Badge misplacements.
*Team mates (even after the pit) with many left over badges.
* Over-production...seems like a waste of tools, coins, goods, relics, timers, etc.

Reward: More team mate participation, ability to enjoy FA via chat, etc..., clear goals and timely posting of badges by all.
Thanks, vees

Agreed. But the trust and cooperation are something that needs to be in play now for fs to succeed in fa's. So i dont think that would change.
Archs and mages would have to decide who is trustwory enough to be granted access to place the badges. But most fs already have a select person or a select few ppl that run the fa's. So i dont think this would cause many issues.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
As a player and as the person who coordinates the FA (similar to the way @Dominionofgod does) in one of my cities (though I've had a highly competent and appreciated assistant during the last 2 FA's, yay!), I'd really like this idea to be implemented. So, I'm going to play 'devil's advocate' and try to come at this from another point of view. It is my hope that we can address some short-comings I foresee, making the idea more likely to receive serious consideration from the company.
I'm going to try to read Inno's 'mind' and come at this from the standpoint of increasing company revenue. My assumption is: that is the over-riding goal of any business. Another assumption is that Inno's revenue generation is focused on micro-transactions (for the game overall, but assessing it only for the FA here).
Here's my thinking:
Micro-transactions are valuable with large numbers of customers. For the FA, the more players participating, the better. The design change in the UI for badge collection was a successful expenditure of company resources for development/implementation when measured by increased player participation. Micro-transactions increase when players log in more often. Micro-transactions increase when players are actively engaged in content provided. Micro-transactions tend to be generated more frequently with a certain level of frustration on the part of the player(s). There's a limit to how much frustration is acceptable, but removing frustration completely is counterproductive. The current UI for badge collection seemed to fall within acceptable parameters when implemented.
One of the impacts of this UI development/implementation was a higher increase in player participation (especially at the very end) during the FA than was anticipated. There was a higher server load resulting in multiple technical issues. The ending time of the FA was adjusted to insure it ends during regular Inno work hours, making more staff available to keep the technical underpinnings running more smoothly. This meant less expenditure on more hardware that is not required when an FA is not active, and therefore upgrading was not considered to be cost effective.
The overall result of the changing of the UI for badge collection and adjustment of FA start/end times resulted in higher revenue. <<An assumption as well, but why would the frequency increase if it were not a revenue generator?
In my 'devil's advocate' opinion: The implementation of a FA badge pool as presented would decrease player participation. Players could log in less often and their active participation during the last hours of an FA (? possibly the highest revenue production period of the FA?) would no longer be required. This would reduce the number of customers as well as reduce the frustration levels, both essential ingredients to a successful micro-transactions revenue model.
Assumption: There is no motivation to expend company resources on development that does not at least maintain current revenue levels and it is preferable to expend those resources on development that increases revenue levels. This is especially true when considering direct revenue derived from intermittent content (ex: events, FA's, etc) . QOL improvements should maintain current revenue levels and result in an increase (albeit smaller and less measurable one) in overall revenue.
How do we address these (imo, legitimate) concerns on the part of the company?
Some ideas:
Place time limits on donation of badges (from @Crow Last Elf's post above) and possibly on placing of badges
Place caps on the number of badges the pool can store
Place caps on the number of badges an individual player can donate
Place caps on the number of badges that can be placed within a certain amount of time
Implementation of 'cool-down' times between ability to place x number of badges
Remove ability to place badges at all during the last x hours of the FA
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
In my 'devil's advocate' opinion: The implementation of a FA badge pool as presented would decrease player participation. Players could log in less often and their active participation during the last hours of an FA (? possibly the highest revenue production period of the FA?) would no longer be required. This would reduce the number of customers as well as reduce the frustration levels, both essential ingredients to a successful micro-transactions revenue model.

I see your logic. However, i disagree with your conclusions. (Granted, a lot of your statement as well as mine is based on assumption. And/or could vary player to player).

I do not see the FS badge pool idea decreasing participation. I see it increasing participation.
The simplified system would help make those that skip fa's normally, be more inclined to actually join in. They no longer have to report, or worry about placing things and being on to do that.. For those that skip fa's this will provide a way to contribute to there fs without having to go crazy over it.
For those that now they will be away, or unable to log in due to work or such, and miss the end... they are more tempted now to not participate, or to participate less. Why make badges if they wont be able to be on to use them? - The FS badge pool means every badge they make will truly count. They will be able to be used to help there fs out. This gives incentive to participate or to keep participating because there action will actually matter for the fs.

Simplifying the procedure.. reducing the stress for the procedure.. does not in any way mean less active.

And ill use the change they made to the badge collection system as an example of proof. That 'simple' change made collecting badges infinatly easier for all players. It helped reduce the stress of the process as well. But those benefits dont mean that ppl simply log on less just because collecting is easier. ... And it wont mean ppl will log on less because using badges becomes easier/more efficient. If anything, the helpful nature of the adjustment encourages ppl to participate.

Another Fa adjustment, allowing us to start or factories all at once, allowing us to start or workshops all at once... Two more examples of a very small change with a massive impact. Again, it simplifies the process. It makes it less stressful.. It does NOT keep ppl away. If anything they are more happy about collections now because of the simplicity.

The fs badge pool is more likely to fall into the same category. It simplifies the experience, reduces the stress of the badge maker, as well as those that run the fa (no more off path wasted badges).

And just to cap off this line of reasoning.. ill use an example of myself.
Back before we had the 'start all workshop' option, we had to start every single one manually. So during the FA when something like the brewers badge came up... 50 workshop collections... that meant we had to do all 50 manually.. one at a time... for each and every brewers badge needed.
This was very very very tedious and time consuming. So much in fact that it would give me incredibly painful migraines (which also bring along sensitivity to light, loss of equilibrium, and sick to stomach).. not fun.
So needless to say, i flat out stopped making them at all. I stopped my participation of that badge completely.
Then they added the 'start all' feature. It simplified that process. It was stress free. It was incredible for me. And guess what, now I can make the brewers again. I can participate in that badge again. This last fa i made about 150 brewers.
That is the difference a simple adjustment makes.
Now i 'could' argue that starting them all at once means less time on the game.. i 'could' argue' that it was a fundamental aspect of the system... But the bottom line is it was a simple adjustment that was a Massive improvement. That simplification, that stress relief allows me to play more then ever, and to participate more then ever. - And i think the FS badge Pool will have a similar effect on the player base.

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This would reduce the number of customers as well as reduce the frustration levels, both essential ingredients to a successful micro-transactions revenue model.
As i mentioned, i feel this will increase player participation once they are used to the adjustment. Which means more opportunities for a transaction.

That being said, and this is an assumption based on everything iv seen.. But i would think, not to many ppl are spending money on FA's. The prizes really are not worth spending real money on. (iv tried to avoid mentioning the prizes because this whole discussion is NOT about where we think prizes are good or not.) So my guess would be that the fa is not one of there top money generators. But i could be wrong. - But i dont think the badges ppl make going to a fs badge pool instead of a private badge pool makes any negative impact on sales.

If anything.... the simplification could increase participation. Increased participation could yield more fs's competing for top points. That could potentially increase sales if there are any.

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Micro-transactions tend to be generated more frequently with a certain level of frustration on the part of the player(s).
Perhaps for impulse buyers/buying. This is something that will change from person to person.
For me personally, frustration is not a good selling tool. Especially if its a UI or system issue. If im unhappy because i want something more.. then maybe. But if im upset because the system is a poor design/or not as good as it could be and thus it is causing me stress... then screw em'. Im not likely to support something thats fundamental programming is irritating me.
Frustration from content could be useful as a sales tactic. (Hence why magic residences, magic ws and expansions sell.)
Frustration because the games UI design is clumsy and annoying... not a good selling point.

So for me, making this FS badge Pool adjustment is an improvement to the UI. And UI improvements can be difficult to implement form a coders perspective. So when they do them (like they did with the badge collection and the 'start all' features), then it shows me that the programmers take player feedback seriously. It shows me they are trying to improve there work to help the player base out. And that make me want to support them with a purchase.

So for ppl of a similar mindset to mine.. the adjustment could improve sales.
For those that might go crazy and spend a bunch anyway, this adjustment would not stop them in any way.
So it seems like a good sale tactic as well.
 

Veesviewpoint

Active Member
...iron sharpens iron...let's see where we can go with this! For the most part...FA's are "fun". :) (removing all the stress components of communication and timely placement of badges)...means somehow, team mates would need to be able to participate within a given scope of time...while...many of our team mates live in other countries. We love that part, keeps things and information interesting in chat and mail.
A well thought out succint plan for all fellowships to understand and implement, once learned...easily transferred to new members etc.
The FA fatique may eventually kill FA's..or as history has proven...cause many to give up. vees
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
The FA fatique may eventually kill FA's..or as history has proven...cause many to give up. vees
Yea, thats possibly true. And it doesnt look like they want to elt up on FA's any time soon. But thats all the more reason to implement a UI improvment like the FS badge pool. Help simplify it and reduce the stress for the players asap. Before they get sick and decide to stop.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I have always wanted to see a fellowship badge count included as an in-game feature of the FAs. This would greatly reduce the nitty gritty stuff of tracking/reporting badges that so many players find unpleasant, and which then falls to one or two members to take on. Then every fellow could check in-game to see which badges most need making and have a way of instantly seeing how their contribution and efforts are helping.

Boy, that would help me tremendously. I have a thread for all those who can't/won't use the FA spreadsheet. They report the badges to the thread and then I put them in the spreadsheet for them. This would really cut down on my workload and make life so much easier for everyone in the group, because seeing what badges are desperately needed is a perfect way for the group to coordinate their efforts.
 

Veesviewpoint

Active Member
With something like this Dominion, there is a greater chance to "bring back to the table", team mates who state they will Never participate in an FA. And too, those of us who try and manage it...would have that opportunity to bring fun, joy and team camaraderie back to our fellowships!! :)
PS..thanks Sammi, have always respected your concepts and support you give to people along the way! V's
 
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