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    Your Elvenar Team

Fellowship Adventures Discussion 2021

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Alram

Flippers just flip
I'm sorry I didn't answer you sooner, lyapo; I've been running around like a headless chicken, lol. But to answer your assumption, I believe that the FA is 20 percent harder if you won 1st place with a 50K score last time, and this time you're in 2nd place with 60K because your competitor is not working "harder," but simply has a new whale member who can buy the badges that the fellowship was out of. That's not competitors putting forth more effort. That's a harder FA when new people choose to buy diamonds because they can't bear to lose. Frankly, I think that's inherently unfair.
Too bad the new member didn't join your fellowship instead.
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
We wouldn't have allowed that behavior, lol. I'm lucky I have a very ethical archmage. She would have put a stop to it. :)
What behavior? Is buying badges unethical? I did accidentally buy a badge this last FA, a carpenters of all silly things. I'm pretty sure no one knows. Lol. They know now.
How do you know what people in other fellowships are doing with their diamonds?
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Is buying badges unethical?
It's P2W in PVP- considered icky by many, but the whole game is set up that way so it's rather unavoidable.
E.G. If someone buys 20 diamond expansions to place a shanty town for the FA are they less of a "Pay to Win" player than the one who buys badges directly?
How do you know what people in other fellowships are doing with their diamonds?
You can look and see how many factories etc competing fellowship cities have and calculate the max badges they can produce with such a set up, but mostly when you see a 60K+ score when not enough hours have passed for them to get that many recipes you know they are flipping the MA
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
you know they are flipping the MA
And....that's a bad thing?

My smallest city is a non diamond account in chapter 5. I have over 1500 diamonds on that account that I have won playing the spire and the MA.
I could flip the MA 300 times. It is not unethical and it is not a sure sign of P2W.


Edit to add: to be fair I only have enough speedups and relics to craft 35 CCs. The T1 tournament has not run through since the last FA so I am a bit short in my smallest city.
 
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Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
Besides, so what if someone is spending money. It is not unethical.

Edit to add: Thank you to everyone who is spending money. I like this game and if the devs cant eat the game will vanish!
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
And....that's a bad thing?
It depends on your perspective.
Allowing real money to influence the outcome of a competition makes that competition undesirable for me to compete in(unless it's texas hold-em), but as I said, the whole game offers massive advantages to anyone willing to spend money, so I feel the point is moot.

Yes, there are free diamonds now which muddies the issue a bit, but it's still there because there is a direct perceived & measurable value to diamonds.
E.G.
  • Magic Workshops are desirable.
  • They cost 2,000 diamonds.
  • 2,000 diamonds cost $20
  • so diamonds have a minimum value of $0.01 each (until MWS become undesirable)
  • This means that flipping the MA "costs" $0.50
This formula is different for every player based on their goals, desires, luck, but unless they have zero desire for anything else that diamonds/real money can buy, there exists some formula for them.

Thank you to everyone who is spending money. I like this game and if the devs cant eat the game will vanish!
Like you, I thank anyone spending money on this game, but it's just not for me as I feel it removes too much of the challenge. I even placed 150+ wishing wells when I quit for a year so that upon my return(if I did) I wouldn't be able to skip/reduce any new challenges presented.
Since that opinion is mine and I have no ability(or desire) to force it upon others, the FA competition and any other PvP in Elvenar holds no interest to me.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
How is using the game features a bad thing?

By the logic presented .. this would mean that ANYTHING you didn't do for yourself would be undesirable... so if you feel that buying badges is undesirable, then I hope you are not using elvenarchitect to design your city and that you aren't using elvenstats to evaluate your play or your fellowships because those are third party applications that allow the work done by others to improve your personal game... just saying
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
It depends on your perspective.
Allowing real money to influence the outcome of a competition makes that competition undesirable for me to compete in(unless it's texas hold-em), but as I said, the whole game offers massive advantages to anyone willing to spend money, so I feel the point is moot.
I agree it's inevitable that there will be fellowships filled with players spending money and the advantage will always go to them for the win. That's the game and I'm all for everyone getting to play this game the way they want to. And I've spent plenty of diamonds in my time on an expansion here or there, or to flip the MA when the fire phoenix conversion spells were in there, for example. But not to win a FA, or to beat out another team.

I've only been a part of one fellowship that has gone for gold, once. It was a ton of fun to try and 2nd place felt like a well earned achievement. I would hope that the 1st placers didn't edge us out in the end with diamonds because the idea that they out-organized us is a fun notion. It means we might out-organize them the next time. Perhaps it's not unethical to win with diamonds...but it sure takes some of the fun out of it for others so I don't mind frowning on it.

By the logic presented .. this would mean that ANYTHING you didn't do for yourself would be undesirable... so if you feel that buying badges is undesirable, then I hope you are not using elvenarchitect to design your city
I do think there is a difference between buying badges to win a ranking place in the FA and using elvenarchitect to get the best layout - even if that layout gives you an advantage in the FA. Elvenstats is a tool available to everyone and is a donation based tool. Buying badges is not financially feasible to every FA player.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
How is using the game features a bad thing?
I thought I made my position on that pretty clear. The game is IMO flawed for anything PvP because money has too great an influence in the outcome.
Perhaps an analogy would help:
The fact that you or your supporters can spend millions of dollars on advertising campaigns to get you elected to office isn't great, but that doesn't mean I think you shouldn't do it- I think that's the game we have and it's the game that needs changing, to reduce the impact of $$$, otherwise I, personally, will never even consider running for office.​
By the logic presented .. this would mean that ANYTHING you didn't do for yourself would be undesirable... so if you feel that buying badges is undesirable, then I hope you are not using elvenarchitect to design your city and that you aren't using elvenstats to evaluate your play or your fellowships because those are third party applications that allow the work done by others to improve your personal game... just saying
I think there's a pretty huge leap between
Using Elven architect instead of graph paper or legos or w/e to design an optimal city layout
vs
1-click to complete any task
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
If someone buys 20 diamond expansions to place a shanty town for the FA are they less of a "Pay to Win" player than the one who buys badges directly?
I think so, yeah. In the same vein, I'd also say that flipping the MA isn't a big deal. Or even correcting a workshop pick-up error. But buying badges outright is.

For another analogy: We all know major sports competitions have major financial backing. At the end of the day, that gives a serious advantage. The winning NBA team or Olympic athlete or whatever had a lot of resources that helped them train, prepare, attract the best talent and support network, etc. So the game or race or whatever we watch is heavily, heavily influenced by money. Someone without those resources might have superior talent, but they're at a disadvantage. On one level, we know that, but we still enjoy the game. But if it became about simply auctioning off the trophy to the highest bidder, folks would stop watching. They want people to walk onto the field or the track or get into the pool and compete. Not buy their way past each other.

My opinion is the same as Atagus:
Perhaps it's not unethical to win with diamonds...but it sure takes some of the fun out of it for others so I don't mind frowning on it.
In the FA, buying badges with diamonds feels like it defeats the purpose. It feels like auctioning off the Superbowl trophy. Or riding a car to the finish line of the marathon. Or buying your way out of penalties. It feels like...cheating.

To be clear, I do not think diamonds are "cheating" in other ways. I am talking about only the very specific action of buying FA badges instead of making them.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
For another analogy: We all know major sports competitions have major financial backing. At the end of the day, that gives a serious advantage
That's why they have salary caps ;)
It doesn't fix the issue but does diminish it. I wouldn't want to play* in a league without them, but I might still watch the occasional game.

*Note: obviously I still would considering fame&fortune, but given the choice, a level playing field would be my preference.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
the very specific action of buying FA badges instead of making them.
Okay. Narrowing it down to this one specific action...how do you know when a player in another FS is doing this? Unless they are talking about it because they dont realize it's a shameful secret and you have a spy friend in the FS.
 
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SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
My point is and was... if you aren't doing it yourself it is a form of a cheat. If a player buys diamonds only when there is an advantage to it... aka, getting badges, KP's or whatever, then they have those.

The idea someone can buy their way through this game is a fact of the parameters.... However, my fellowship is uber small.... although less small than it was and we are very active in all aspects of the game... If by buying a badge or two gets us all three chests (and we only do one path btw) so that my fellows can get the loot to help their cities. if I have the spare diamonds or money to buy the diamonds I will, without apology. I'm not in the least interested in rank... I'm interested in my fellowship and helping all of them enjoy the game, get what they need to help their cities and have a good time....

And as a further thing.... I don't use architect ever and rarely use stats unless someone asks for something that I don't know the answer to. Or I come here and look up Soggy's and Minimax's words of wisdom about AW's and Military builds and pass on that info... giving them full credit of course because I tell everyone to go and see what they have to say...
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
If by buying a badge or two gets us all three chests (and we only do one path btw) so that my fellows can get the loot to help their cities. if I have the spare diamonds or money to buy the diamonds I will, without apology. I'm not in the least interested in rank
Absolutely. There's no PvP aspect to that, there's exactly zero impact to my game when you do that. It's like you're spending money on a single-player game at that point (or co-op I guess)
I come here and look up Soggy's and Minimax's words of wisdom about AW's and Military builds and pass on that info... giving them full credit of course
Oh, so when I'm wrong I can get all the blame? Thanks!:mad: :p
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
Absolutely. There's no PvP aspect to that, there's exactly zero impact to my game when you do that. It's like you're spending money on a single-player game at that point (or co-op I guess)

Oh, so when I'm wrong I can get all the blame? Thanks!:mad: :p

Ummm, I have yet to find where your evaluation of AW's or culture/pop builds have been wrong.... nor has any evaluation that I've read of Minimax. Just saying.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
This subject has really gone far afield. I never meant to cause anyone to look their noses down at players who spend diamonds. Everyone spends diamonds; if they didn't, everyone would have a ton just sitting there from the spire. I don't believe even buying expansions at the start of an FA is bad. If you have the money to give yourself an advantage, then I suppose you have every right.

There is something different about giving it all you've got and starting off at an advantage, where everyone sees your advantage, and coming in during the last few hours of an FA and buying hundreds of dollars worth of diamonds just to edge out the number one group. I see a difference in that. If you don't, then that's your method of play. I would never engage in it or, if I were the AM, allow it in my fellowship. (And just for the record, I am not accusing anyone, not because I don't know anyone who has ever done it but because I don't want a war.)

I just wouldn't want to win that way. But I'm not saying everyone else has to perform by my standards. Indeed, it's hard to even have standards in this world, with so many people thinking they must be number one at all costs ... a few of them even claiming they won when they didn't, just to avoid losing face (not that they had any face to begin with) ... but then, I digress. :(
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
This subject has really gone far afield. I never meant to cause anyone to look their noses down at players who spend diamonds. Everyone spends diamonds; if they didn't, everyone would have a ton just sitting there from the spire. I don't believe even buying expansions at the start of an FA is bad. If you have the money to give yourself an advantage, then I suppose you have every right.

There is something different about giving it all you've got and starting off at an advantage, where everyone sees your advantage, and coming in during the last few hours of an FA and buying hundreds of dollars worth of diamonds just to edge out the number one group. I see a difference in that. If you don't, then that's your method of play. I would never engage in it or, if I were the AM, allow it in my fellowship. (And just for the record, I am not accusing anyone, not because I don't know anyone who has ever done it but because I don't want a war.)

I just wouldn't want to win that way. But I'm not saying everyone else has to perform by my standards. Indeed, it's hard to even have standards in this world, with so many people thinking they must be number one at all costs ... a few of them even claiming they won when they didn't, just to avoid losing face (not that they had any face to begin with) ... but then, I digress. :(

I'm still wondering how you know what people in other fellowships are doing with their own diamonds. How do you know that no one in your FS bought any badges?
Insulting people for using their own diamonds whenever they want is unkind.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
I find it pretty hard to believe that a FS would "boot" a Whale from the FS. Any FS would be lucky to have a Whale in their midst and I don't believe they would cut their nose off to spite their face and lose the advantage a Whale brings to their FS. Human nature is to look the other way if you don't like the behavior and still reap the benefits. I have never seen a FS Overview that said "Whales need not apply"! LOL
 
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