Fights - How do I beat this fight?

[Mykan]

With the change in the battle system a lot of people are learning and trying to win fights. This thread is a place for you to post details (screenshots) of your fight and seek help from other players who may have different ideas of strategies you can try.

There are several resources to help you learn how to fight in addition to posting questions here:

• Elvenar Platinum Leaf Facebook group
• Elven Architect Units section and battle calculator
• Mykan's Guide - Combat section

Before posting check your squad size
The battle system is designed that you are not suppose to win fights where you are outnumbered 2 to 1. Only with great skill and terrain might people succeed against those odds. How do you determine your squad size?

For fights where the enemy is not 5 squads we need to convert the squad size to that of a 5 person squad. This is done by: (Enemy squad size)*enemy squad number / 5

Information to post
When posting information about the fight several things will make it easier for people to help you:

• Confirm squad size or ratio of your squad size to enemy squad size
• Image of map (if possible)
• Units available to you
• Units in enemy squad
• Province type
• Any tactics you have already tried.

Please note
This thread is for a specific purpose, there are multiple threads to post thoughts about the battle system and you are welcome to post opinions and comments in those threads. This thread is for trying to help someone solve a province through combat.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

The battle system is designed that you are not suppose to win fights where you are outnumbered 2 to 1.

Ah, I'd been meaning to ask about this and I finally located it. What exactly does outnumbered mean? Outnumbered in terms of squad size or total number of troops or both?

 

[Mykan]

Ah, I'd been meaning to ask about this and I finally located it. What exactly does outnumbered mean? Outnumbered in terms of squad size or total number of troops or both?

In terms of squad size, in my guide and in a few other posts, there is a graphic showing fight difficulty and it explains about the squad size and difficulty. This is not saying you can't win but you are not expected or meant to win in those fights.

The last level of a tournament is 1 to 1.8 so it is a very hard fight near the limits of Inno's expectation for us to win.

 

[DeletedUser3696]

The more stacks the harder the fight is, despite there being less per stack as compared to a 4-5 stack fight. Converting the stack size into an average (based on 5 stacks) is/can be misleading.
I'd way rather fight 4 stacks with higher numbers than 8 stacks with lower numbers - for obvious reasons.
I think it would be best to put the stack size based on an average of 5 stacks, but still list total number of stacks.

I have a stack size of 1140.
Here are some examples of ring 12
2,152 avg - 8 stacks/1,345
2,067 avg - 7 stacks/1,477
1,976 avg - 6 stacks/1,647
1,893 - 5 stacks
1,817 avg - 4 stacks/2,272

 

[Mykan]

The more stacks the harder the fight is, despite there being less per stack as compared to a 4-5 stack fight. Converting the stack size into an average (based on 5 stacks) is/can be misleading.
I'd way rather fight 4 stacks with higher numbers than 8 stacks with lower numbers - for obvious reasons.
I think it would be best to put the stack size based on an average of 5 stacks, but still list total number of stacks.

You are correct that fights with more squads can be harder and impact the difficulty. Providing stack size and squad size are both helpful information.

The only reason to convert the enemy squad size to the equivalent of 5 is for a gauge of fight difficulty based on what we know from inno of 2:1 not meant to be winnable. It might not be a perfect gauge but it is a starting place, map terrain can also dramatically impact difficulty.

 

[DeletedUser3696]

You are correct that fights with more squads can be harder and impact the difficulty. Providing stack size and squad size are both helpful information.

The only reason to convert the enemy squad size to the equivalent of 5 is for a gauge of fight difficulty based on what we know from inno of 2:1 not meant to be winnable. It might not be a perfect gauge but it is a starting place, map terrain can also dramatically impact difficulty.

I agree, and if the enemy is all melee I can win 4-8 stack fights. It gets tricky when they have cannoneers, mages and golems who can hit you first :O

 

[DeletedUser4778]

I must say though that the new enemies I'm facing are weaker than the old ones. But I hate it that the sorceress's range will be decreased. That's gonna result in a lot more deaths for me.

 

[DeletedUser594]

This has been my recipe more or less

Spoiler: steel

 

[Mykan]

This has been my recipe more or less

Spoiler: steel

About that for me too, notice anything missing? I almost never use light melee now.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

Mine is sor &/or arc or archer since I can often kill the thieves in 2-3 rounds. That will soon change though since I'm going against farther rings now. I'll give the golem a shot next time when there are lots of stacks of thieves. I haven't used melee at all since my very close call against thieves, war dogs, and cerberi. I can see using treants again in some encounters but not sword dancers. He's not even good cannon fodder anymore.

By the way, do you guys feel the special abilities simplify or complicate and balance or unbalance things or is it too early to say since we're still getting the hang of the new release? I have mixed reactions about it. I no longer hate certain provinces since I get a bonus against all or most of them but I am now choosing my battles even more selectively than before as I can't produce troops fast enough to replace losses. I've lately been producing only archers and sorceresses since they yielded the best results in my fights. I'll only start producing the others when I've run out of options to use the sor/arc against.

(Sorry if I'm derailing the thread. Feel free to ignore if I am.)

 

[DeletedUser594]

I miss the oddities like sending axe/cerb against golem. I don't know how much they will alter the AI but so far they left the ability to split enemy troops pretty easily and with the new terrain that can be interesting. I would like to be rid or the line o'bushes dead in front of start position leading to single file walk around before combat.
I'm liking the distancing issues when facing the combo heavy melee with knights/orcs warriors/swamp. Thats going to get hairy when sorc gets her leash (Priest can't be far behind for a nerfing).
I think the swords/axe may be needed against Archers- especially if first shot cannot be avoided. Thieves are more annoying then ever. Treants kinda suck right now. I'm not liking the fairy troops so much- the thorn rose mage is a powderpuff. The new canon for my human army is apparently lobbing marshmallows- he's benched until upgraded.
I would like to see some edge added back to the Treant strike. I think an attack bonus against LM would be A-Ok and not detract from the complexity. Balance doesn't have to mean all the edges are dulled.
All in all I'm waiting to see where all the chips fall and then playing a little while to see if any interesting qualities emerge. So far I think gthink it's going to be a better system all around but i will be holding off on commenting on changes other than those noted previously in this post and other posts, and all interim posts between now and then.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

I would like to be rid or the line o'bushes dead in front of start position leading to single file walk around before combat.

Ugh. That's the terrain I hate the most and the only one where I had to negotiate in the old battle system because the cannoneers kill me before I'm even halfway. Haven't come across it again because I cleared all silk provinces except for one before the new release and that remaining province is in Ring 8 so it's very hard to impossible for me now as I'm only in Chapter 5 but with Chapter 4 armies.

Gotta admit I enjoyed fighting in the steel tourney. Zero to light losses with sor/arc combo, especially if going against only or mostly heavy melee. A bit trickier with thieves but still quite manageable. Didn't fight that many provinces or go that far with them since it's not my boost. I just wanted to stock up on steel relics for Power of Provision spells and I won't even produce them -- I'll just save them for future events or emergencies.

I have to admit, I'm more concerned with troop number than squad size because I feel like each troop's special abilities counter squad size and even unit size to a considerable extent. It depends, of course. I'm now saving my troops for easy fights where I have bonuses against all or most of the enemy. Just came out of a very easy and straightforward tournament fight in the first province with no losses.

Squad Size: 26 vs. 126
Troops: 36x3 Archers II and 9x2 Sorceresses vs. 21x2 Orc Warriors

If I just looked at squad size, I'd be intimidated by the x10 factor but the number of my troops actually outnumber theirs (126 vs. 42). I was initially iffy at first because, despite the sor & arc bonuses vs heavy melee, they killed only one at a time but at least their movement and attack ranges are low and my sorceresses can make the archers immune to the orc warriors -- the same reason why I like fighting swamp monsters and the old ents and treants. I'm really loving the sor/arc combo.

Addendum: I just checked the Battle Simulator and it says I should have lost that fight. Now running what I remember of past fights and current encounters on my map that I know I can win and see what the Battle Simulator says.

Haha! Ran 10 scenarios that I won or know I can win and the simulator says I lose every time. Admittedly, it does deal with only one vs. one unit type, not multiple units and doesn't consider terrain and other factors.

Also, I just checked the number of open provinces I have left. I need 10 more to get to Dwarves but, checking my notes and looking at the map, I have no Ring 5 provinces open as those were conquered back in Chapter 4. So my only options are 5 in Ring 6, 8 in Ring 7, and 4 in Ring 8. Based on the scouting cost, I have 3 unscouted Ring 7 provinces left, the rest are Ring 8. So it is inevitable that I will have to fight or negotiate 5 provinces that are 2 rings above me. This makes me disagree even more with the "overscouting" and "overconquering" comments that I've been seeing. It also makes strategizing both my goods and army even more important. I view both the economic and military sides of Elvenar as battles and intend to negotiate the harder fights even if I can win them and save my army for the easier fights and tournaments. No more full fighting mode for me since losses are heavier than before the new release. It doesn't matter if the barracks is faster if I lose more troops and my armories can't power it all the time.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

I'm not liking the fairy troops so much- the thorn rose mage is a powderpuff.

I ran the stats for the thornrose mage compared to the enchantress II since she replaced those in the steel provinces and her base attack and HP are indeed weaker. Even her special ability bonuses to attack and damage are lower than those of the enchantress although she's better against HM while the enchantress is better against HR. As someone facing her, I appreciate that since the enemy army is now a bit weaker but I'd be ticked off if they were an option for my army.

Due to your comment, I looked at her stats compared to the Sorceress and the Golem and you're right, she's weak. Btw, I didn't know you could get the Thornrose Mage in Fairies. I thought it was Blossom Mage (who doesn't impress me either). So you get both? Or is one for humans and the other for elves?

I would like to see some edge added back to the Treant strike. I think an attack bonus against LM would be A-Ok and not detract from the complexity. Balance doesn't have to mean all the edges are dulled.

I definitely agree! The treant used to be my fave unit until I got the sorceress. I barely use it now as it keeps getting massacred. So sad. It is mostly kindling now.

 

[DeletedUser2963]

2 LM archers 3 hm. round one move hm forward, do not move light archers, round 2 kill enemy archer, he will move forward in round 1, you should be able to reach him with hm and archers in round 2, round 3 try to take out light melee with hm and archers, pull your hm away from enemy hm if possible without exposing your archers.

I dont have the fairy troops, any point in tossing one of those in? I wouldn't use a sorceress because of the number of lm units. And my archers on hit those things in high numbers so..also, i have no dogs, but they are pretty hard to kill even for an hm when I have faced them in a fight. Would love to see how they do in this fight.

Thx Varron, good idea

 

[DeletedUser594]

Sorry I had a mistake in my numbers and will have to find an appropriate province

 

[DeletedUser4778]

I can see your squad size, Bobbykitty, but what about unit numbers? So I'm assuming 1140 / 6 = 190 golems = 950 troops total, is that right? How many rounds did it take you to wipe out the bandits and wild archers (and are those bandits and wild archers II or III)? I'm no combat veteran but, for this one, I would use archers and sorceresses or archers only since those range attackers are enough to wipe out a sorceress squad in one strike. I wouldn't use golems since they're useless against heavy melee as I learned in a disastrous fight with a similar composition to this except much smaller numbers. I consider troop numbers more than squad size numbers since, IMO, the new system has effectively negated unit size and sheer numbers count more sometimes than special abilities. I've run the stats in my Battle Sheet (click link below and click on the tab I named after you) presuming that your enemies are the second promoted version and with an all archer complement and it should be winnable (especially if the terrain isn't awful). You have more HP and damage than them.

Correction: You have less HP but more damage than them so a lot will depend on first strike. You also have more HP than those 4 squads of range attackers combined and that should help a lot.

 

[DeletedUser43]

I did manage to finally win that battle with all golems. I was down to one little squad of golems but I did win. Sorry, I went to adjust that post and it deleted but here is the picture. My golems have 190 per squad, yes. I killed the archers first....I went after the far ones first. Then the closer ones. That took me 3 rounds to get them all. Then I ran and ran and ran against the orc generals playing ring around the rosy with a rock obstacle and just hiding as much as I could. I think I did 10 or 11 rounds? It took forever. They did corner me and one blow felled an entire squad, but I managed to have a few terrified guys left at the end. They are all suffering from PTSD, but I did win!! It was a ring 12 battle.

I didn't use the sorcs because I was fighting this on beta and they have such a shortened range now they are always in hitting range.

It seems the ring 12 provinces I had already researched before the woodelves came out have much larger troops against me. This was a ring 12 I researched after the woodelves and after an advanced scout. So all the old provinces are unwinnable, but the new ones, I might have some chance against.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

Congratulations! So glad you won. My golems vs. heavy melee didn't have a terrain advantage, sadly. I'm curious, do you remember the scalping costs for that encounter?

It's the same for me in that all Ring 8 encounters I have open before Advanced Scouts in Chapter V are very hard to impossible so I've been negotiating those slowly. I could wait until my tech catches up but I decided to negotiate the ones with mixed fights and 8 squads to save my troops for other fights. I'm now ignoring the stupid storyline quest that is asking me to scout 3 provinces. I also ignored the stupid first storyline quest that asked me to scout a province before I'd even researched Advanced Scouts and saved it for the Halloween event and scouted a boosted province.

 

[DeletedUser594]

Any territories discovered before you unlock the advanced scout will have tougher fights (more squads, higher squad size) than territories scouted after you unlock adv scouts.
That's a tough fight. If I understand the conversion factor correctly that would be 8*1159=9272
9272/5=1854
1854/1140= 1.6
so a 1.6 on a scale of 1 to 2 with 2 being nearly impossible.
nice work

 

[DeletedUser4778]

Do you think it was worth the loss of lives, time, and supplies spent? Would it have been cheaper overall to negotiate that instead? (This is why I'm interested in what the scalping costs for that encounter were.) I now prefer to negotiate/cater if it's 8 squads since my barracks can't cope with the deaths.