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    Your Elvenar Team

FS Badge Pools instead of Individual Badge Pools

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
I am proposing an alteration in Fellow Ship Adventures. Right now we have 25 players with individual badge pools. This is a group event, lets change that out for a group pool; Fs Badge Pool. It is a small change that i feel would have great impact on the FA and has been on my mind for the last year or two.

The FS Badge Pool could look just like the individual ones we have now. Only instead of counting a single player, it counts the whole FS. Tho i would like to add a second number, the total. So instead of it saying 'Brewers: 87' to indicate the fs has 87 brewers available, I would suggest 'Brewers: 87/150'. That way we can see how many are available AND how many we have made in total.

Right now every player in a FS has there own badge pool. Through the system, we have no way to know what someone else has. This leads to many groups requesting that every player make posts of what badges they collect and what badges the set to be done; every single time they collect or set a badge. Then someone has to copy all that info down into a spreadsheet where they can compare the totals of what the FS has to what is needed. This is incredibly tedious, tiresome, and stressful even under the best circumstances. But we rarely ever get perfect reporting. Some times ppl are in a hurry, lose count, got a badge name wrong, on mobile (which makes it harder), or they simply dont care to report. This makes counts become inaccurate over time and causes more stress to the ppl keeping the count. - As someone that has personally kept the count for a few years now, i absolutely confirm this. - A FS Badge Pool, would alleviate nearly all of this. We would all be able to see, at a glance, what we have available and our total badges made. This would allow for better planning and cooperation withing the FS. Combined with the simplicity of it, it could help lead to better participation in the FS.

Another big factor that causes less participation is the badges that get lost because a player isnt able to be on at the end of an event. If they cant get on, all the badges they had are wasted. This leads to players not even bothering making them to begin with, because why bother if they cant use them. It also hold true for players that are on at certain times of the day, but the badges they made are not what they waypoints are requesting at the very moment. The same waste happens which is demoralizing and leads to players not participating, or participating less. - Having a FS Badge Pool instead of an individual one would eliminate this problem. With all badges going to a FS badge pool, that means ALL badges made have a chance to be used. That allows for further progress in the FA itself. So now instead of being demoralized and making less/none, the players could be more inclined to make all they can because they know there work will help there FS out even if they are not logged on at the right moment. Every player becomes truly important. So this reduces stress, increases participation, and makes FS able to get farther in the event.

To reiterate that point ill add this quote from my own FS right after the FA ended.
"DAMMIT! Ugh i was at work or else I could have pushed us farther, I had so many statues and stuff! :("
^ A prime example of one of the issues i referred to. All those wasted badges. The FS didnt get as far as it could have. The player is annoyed now and might be less likely to make badges or participate in the next FA because his effort this time was wasted. A FS badge Pool solves this problem.

Off path badge placement! Few thigns are as annoying.. if your trying to do a specific path and a player is not paying attention, not caring, or is just in a hurry and had to get on and off fast and end up placeing valueable badges off path. Thus rendering them potentially useless and wasted. It annoys me every single time i see it. - A FS Badge Pool helps eliminate this problem cause they will not have to be in a rush to place them. (Who gets to place badges discussed below.)

Many ppl have complained about the increase of FA in the last year or two. Sometimes we've had a FA after only 1 maybe 2 months since the last one. But one has to think, 'Why is this bad?' 'Why is this causing players stress and anger?' This game has tournaments and Spire every single week. Iv never heard anyone complain that there is to many tournament or wish the system would skip a week. Same goes for the spire. - So why is the FA perceived so differently? Why is one every couple MONTHS to close together? - The main answer i can come up with is how the system is laid out. For tournaments, you do your own work and your points AUTOMATICALLY go to the FS total points. You dont have to manually add them. Same goes for the spire. You do your own thing and your points go to the FS Total Points AUTOMATICALLY. There is no extra manual work to do. Which is good. - The FA however, you have to do all your own work making badges, then there is the added work/stress of trying to time being on at the right moment to place your badges and fear of them being wasted if you cant get on at the right time. This is not a good formula. And it makes ppl more stressed and less likely to participate. - So you already have two systems in place that prove the concept of automatically combining the points/badges to help the players out.

In terms of players buying diamonds, I think this adjustment of a FS Badge Pool would help as well. If you want a player to buy diamonds, then they have to care enough about what is going on in order to want to make that purchase. If they have a FA system that seems designed to work against them, cause more stress, cause more annoyance... then they would have no desire to buy diamonds for such an event. But with the FS Badge Pool implemented, that allows FS to go further then the ever have before. This could lead to more competition between the FS for finishing on the top charts. And if they've actually enjoyed what they have been doing, then they would be more likely to make a purchase. - I can speak for myself in saying i would never make a diamond purchase for the FA they way it currently is. (Rewards aside). But im trying to help you get me to that point!

Pros: So there is a ton of reasons why i feel the FS Badge Pool would be much better then the current individual badge pool. It will make thigns a lot easier for players. Reduces stress, annoyance, and fear. Which in turn would increase the joy of the event, participation in the event, and even competition in the event. It is better in every regard. And i certainly hope this gets implemented.

Cons: Inno has to code it.. but they have to code any change.
A new method of determining credit would be needed. As of now, you need to place a single badge on a map to get credit and the rewards for that map. With a FS Badge Pool, this would no longer be an option. - But i think it could just be adjusted so a player that sends a badge to the FS Badge Pool is granted credit for the map they are currently on. - Its basically the same thing just slightly altered. Make a badge, get credit for that map.

Pro and Con: Ill add this note separately. There is a small group of ppl that like placing badges, others that dont really care, and some that go for maximum efficiency. We will always have a wide range of players. So a few might not like the idea of not being able to place badges. But that works into the answer/suggestion for the question of 'who gets to place the badges from the FS Badge Pool'

1. You could make it everyone. But that could lead to many issues.
2. Give all mages or higher the ability to place badges.
3. Create a new designation. A 'Mage+FA'. Which is higher then a mage but less then an Archmage. They would have the same abilities as a mage PLUS the ability to place badges. And only the 'Mage+FA' and the Arch could place badges.
Some smaller FS or open FS like to make everyone a mage. So that could be an issue if all mages could place badges. The addition of the 'Mage+FA' would allow those FS to keep everyone a mage, but keep the badge placing to select ppl. So you have have certain players that are always going off path, the archmage can manually set it so that player is not in charge of placing badges.
4. No new designation, but a check box or something where the archmage can decide who gets to place the badges.
5. Something else.. Maybe you can come up with a better idea for this part here.

Over all i feel the FS Badge Pool idea would be hands down better then the current individual badge pool system that we have now. I think the improvements are vast and well beyond what one might think at first glance; and has no real down side to it either.
I personally invest a LOT of time and effort running FA's in my FS for the last couple years. It is very stressful and tedious. And i think this change would alleviate so much of that for both be and the rest of the players. So i really hope this idea is considered and implemented!
---

If the over all idea is not agreed upon, a smaller more simple adjustment could be tried. Simply leave the individual pools as they are, AND add a FS Badge Pool. And allow each player to decide for themselves if they want to hold on to there own badges or place them in the group FS Badge Pool
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
I had to remove a few things in order to post this. Apparently my first message was to long. Ill add those bits here even tho they may not be seen if the idea is forwarded.


(supposed to be second paragraph)
First i would like to acknowledge that Inno has made a few 'small changes' in the past for FA that have greatly improved the event. This includes the changing of the 'fa quests'. We used to have to square quests on the side and you'd have to cancel 10+ times to get back to a quest to collect a specific badge. Over and over. The new Grid quest window makes things infinitely better in that regards. Second is the addition of the 'check all' box for workshops and factories. No longer do we have to set them one by one. Which is really irritating when you have 50+ set. - Those are two great examples of small changes that made huge impacts. And i think the FS Badge Pool could be another one of them.

(And two notes to address concerns.)
Note 1: This system adjustment in itself does not change the need to log on often for an FA. The badges still take the same time to make, and you still have to be on to collect them and set new ones. And when it comes to the final hours of the FA event, players that can be on will still be on. There is still things to check and badges to make. Those that are not able to log on, will still not be able to log on. A FS Badge Pool does not change that part at all. - What it does allow is the use of the badges that players made that cant be on at the end. Increasing what the FS can accomplish.

The reduction of stress in the system and the ability to know your work will help the FS no matter what, could serve to encourage ppl to log on more often if they are able to.
Note 2: Players still need to coordinate a plan of approach for the FA. And they still have to coordinate who is making what badge to make sure the FS has them all covered. As well as what badges are still needed or any adjustments being made mid event. That group aspect of the event does not change. It is still the full group activity that it was. The FS Badge Pool simply allows everyone to know that ALL badges can count.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I like the idea of a badge pool. I just think the logistics of who would get to place badges (and trusting them to always place them perfectly ... even mages can accidentally pick the wrong path) is a bit daunting.

Maybe it would be simpler if Inno would redesign the FA to have more than 3 maps, but each map would only have one path that must be completed. The more maps you completed, the more prizes you could get as well as more points. What if there were 10 maps with only one path each? Then the moment you collected a badge, it would automatically go on the map wherever there was that slot open. Extras, if it wasn't needed on that map, could go into a "bank" and be used on the next map, when you got to it. As soon as the fellowship completed the map by automatically having it filled whenever you collected a badge, you'd get the next map. No worries about putting badges in the wrong spot.

Only those fellowships that got through all the maps would go to the pit. That would mean a lot fewer fellowships in the pit competing for points. (It would also mean a lot less lag on the game on the last day.) Maybe they could redesign the pit, too, to be a true pit. Dump badges willy nilly in the pit for points. Each badge would be worth a certain number of points.

I know they'll never do what I suggest, but I can dream! :)
 

BrinDarby

Chatspeaker
My FS uses a Spreadsheet thingy, we also have a badge thread for those
who don't/can't go to the spreadsheet site ....
Everyone does some of the work, so its not lumped on 1 person.

While I agree a " your badges" and " FS badges" could be (2) columns
not just 1, in the current format with very little coding, would be a godsend,
but.................... but if you have a badge pool, and 1 person can apply all the
badges on the paths, you virtually eliminate the whole "working together"
aspect of the FA. @ that point 24 ppl make badges, and 1 player does it all.

Lets say you run a FA discussion msg thread, in your FS.... and msgs are sent
basically with marching orders ( the plan ) and some of your FS goes "off path"
simply cause they didn't read the msg, then I'd say your FS needs to do some
teamwork building sessions, cause there's room to improve there....
(not have the devs chg the game, so we can be lazy)

Knowing FS totals of badges =/= a badge pool.

Edit: and the reason perhaps ppl also could care less about FAs is
due to having to tear down 1/4th of ur city every 7 weeks to put up
turd towns for a week, totally screw'n your normal productions....
OR ..... outlay of time =/= swag earned doing so.
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
but if you have a badge pool, and 1 person can apply all the
badges on the paths, you virtually eliminate the whole "working together"
aspect of the FA. @ that point 24 ppl make badges, and 1 player does it all.
Not at all. placing badges is minimal. The cooperation aspect of the FA is in making a plan for the FS as well as communicating what each player is making and what still needs to be made and coordinating between everyone to make sure that everything that is needed gets made. So the group aspect still remains.
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
Lets say you run a FA discussion msg thread, in your FS.... and msgs are sent
basically with marching orders ( the plan ) and some of your FS goes "off path"
simply cause they didn't read the msg, then I'd say your FS needs to do some
teamwork building sessions, cause there's room to improve there....
(not have the devs chg the game, so we can be lazy)
For some fs's out there its not a matter of 'team building'. Some times, certain ppl just dont listen, or dont care. There is nothing the fs can do about that short of kicking them out of the fs entirely. And judging by how many half full fs's there are combined with how many inactive cities there are.. sometimes just kicking ppl over something like that is not a great option.
Teamwork is a large part for sure, but there is no method to make ppl work together. Some just have to work with what they got.

As for being lazy, the change goes well beyond that one point as i laid out in my OP. It can help everyone across the board.
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
I like the idea of a badge pool. I just think the logistics of who would get to place badges (and trusting them to always place them perfectly ... even mages can accidentally pick the wrong path) is a bit daunting.
Thats why i included the option where arcmages could set it so everyone or only a few can place badges. It would be up to the individual FS to decide for themselves. Every fs would have the option to chose for themselves.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
Thats why i included the option where arcmages could set it so everyone or only a few can place badges. It would be up to the individual FS to decide for themselves. Every fs would have the option to chose for themselves.
That was good thinking on your part, but I still believe that in some fellowships it would make for hard feelings if the person or persons did not choose wisely for the group. As far as the devs go, I think both yours and my ideas have little chance of being implemented, no matter how good they are, because one thing I've learned about Inno ... they have to feel they're getting the biggest bang for their programming buck. If something will be controversial, then it has to be really easy to code before they'll consider it. If something is hard to code, then it better be something that the overwhelming majority will love (or that they think they will love.) Sadly, I don't hold out much hope, at least for the near future. Since they've already spent months revamping the FA just a short time ago (with new badges etc), I think they believe they've improved it, and are ready to move on to the next project. I just wish I thought their improvement was an improvement ... I don't. I hope the tourney improvements will be better.
 

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper, Keys to the Gems
I have an issue with your idea of mage+FA. Your basic premise here is flawed, the reason being that some FSs make a lot of mages. I am very hesitant to make players mages because of the ability to boot players. I think there should be another rank in the FS, maybe even two, all them below the level of mage.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious one
Teamwork is a large part for sure, but there is no method to make ppl work together. Some just have to work with what they got.

I agree. But "what you got" can be changed, can't it? In our fs we work at encouraging those who aren't comfortable with the vision we have, to find another home. It's pretty easy if you simply make sure everybody knows the goals, and, this it important, the time line. We are on a quest to be a Gold Spire Fellowship. Each month we raise our average a little bit and announce the goal to each player. I then monitor which players are moving ahead and which are not. I congratulate the ones moving a head, and discuss with those not, what can be done. Usually, after three to four months, they either fix the problem or we agree they need to move on. I've never had to kick anyone as it's a mutually decided thing. On the other hand, after 3-6 months without progress in which we've looked at things and suggestions have been made but not followed, I would expect the person to understand if I kick them. Like I said, I've never had to do that but as AM you have to be willing to be the "bad guy," from time to time. My point is, given time and a positive and engaged leadership style, you can remake almost every player and if you can't you can at least have them depart on a positive note -- which is really the only way you want anybody to depart, isn't it?

Another example. "Wrong Waypoint Syndrome" is common. "WWS" seem to occur in players who, obviously, don't read the general instructions you put out repeatedly. So, when somebody does that, I send them a private message. In it I lament the loss of the badges and understand that certainly they didn't do it on purpose, and then let them know, "it's okay, I've asked another player to make some extra to make up for it," or something like that. I then also remind them that when they put the badges on there is a great tendency for others to "jump in" and follow their lead...in the wrong direction. Sigh. It's taken about six FA's and, at first, a constant stream of "oops, I see you put some badges on the wrong waypoint" messages, but in this FA we had only one slip up, and thankfully, it was Elvarian Guards, which, as you know, grow like weeds and seem to spring up whenever I even glance at something producing military.

So, in the end it's a steady and gentle hand on each player that needs it. Give them time and monitor their behavior and you'll either have a better player, or an empty slot, all with little to no drama.

AJ
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
I agree. But "what you got" can be changed, can't it?
My point is, given time and a positive and engaged leadership style, you can remake almost every player and if you can't you can at least have them depart on a positive note -- which is really the only way you want anybody to depart, isn't it?
That idea is based on being able to replace a player if they were booted. On a more populated server that had enough ppl looking for fs, then that might be possible. On other servers where its more slim pickings, it can take weeks or even months to replace a single player; much less multiples. In that event then the desision has to be made of whether you want a somewhat active player who makes mistakes, or do you want to boot them and possibly spend the next 2-6 months trying to find a suitable replacement. And if the fs is on the fense for 10 chests or gold medal.. then that becomes even harder.

nother example. "Wrong Waypoint Syndrome" is common. "WWS" seem to occur in players who, obviously, don't read the general instructions you put out repeatedly. So, when somebody does that, I send them a private message.
That assumes that 1, they give a damn. And 2, they actually read the message that was sent to them. If the problem was that they didnt read the first message and follwo instructions, then there is a decent chance that sending them a message with instructions will not be the cure for that problem. - There are also some players that never look at messages. Iv seen a few of them. They ignore all messages equally; event, kp, personal. They just dont bother. And those ppl tend to not be active in chat either. Communicating then becomes very hard. Iv had players like this. And no matter what the problem is, if there is zero communication that it doesnt matter what you say, it wont help. And suddenly your back to that binary choice of keep them and work around them, or boot them. Which leads back to the start of the paragraph above.

Now granted, all of that is a huge issue all on its own (outside of the FA), but atleast it becomes much less of an issue during the FA with a FS Badge Pool.
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
I have an issue with your idea of mage+FA. Your basic premise here is flawed, the reason being that some FSs make a lot of mages.
That is percisly the reason for it. Some Fs's out there make everyone a mage. But what if they dont want every single player to be a badge placer? Either they have to demote the whole Fs during FA (which is popular method now to prevent taking the chest to early) or make a ranking above mage. Same ability as a mage, plus placing badges.

am very hesitant to make players mages because of the ability to boot players.
Agreed.

I think there should be another rank in the FS, maybe even two, all them below the level of mage.
Could split the difference there. You could make the mage+ that is above a mage with the mage abilities plus badge placement. And you could make a second one, something like a Fellow+. For those kept at fellow status (keeps them form taking chest on map) but still have the ability to place badges. And its something that everyone could be placed on if it suited that FS.

Or for simplicity, i also included option #4. No changes to the ranking, but a check box or something next to each player. The Arch can chose who gets to be a badge placer with no effect on ranking. They can make only a few trusted ppl or everyone at there own discretion.

I would have gone into more detail and options in the OP but it has a character limit. I already had to remove some explanations just make it post. And if the idea is forwarded, they only forward the first post.. Its a shame in this instance. I could have done nearly double the OP in explaining things better. But i have to work with what i got.
 

BrinDarby

Chatspeaker
@Dominionofgod ,
Part of why I see badge pools as bad is because the logistics alone
is a good chunk of teamwork/participation, another part is ...
I have a FA rethink thread going, where 1 kewl addition was bonus
pts per WP for each person adding a badge... Your badge pool
completely eliminates that even as a possibility...

Yes I agree , on our current screen we should see both "our badges"
and "FS badges" in 2 columns, so its right there.... FAs are already
pretty brain dead, and badge pools make it even more so.. While
its a good suggestion , in my own mind the cons outweigh the pros.
 

Dominionofgod

Well-Known Member
Part of why I see badge pools as bad is because the logistics alone
is a good chunk of teamwork/participation,
Iv siad this a couple times already. It does very little to change the logistics of the FA. This change would effect only the act of placing the badge. That is it. The need to coomunicate and coordinate to develops a plan for the fa, as well as making the badges, seeing what still needs to be made and what is finished, and any plan alterations and such.. every bit of it is still there. The only thing changed would be actually placing the badge itself.
 

BrinDarby

Chatspeaker
coordinating ppl to stay on path, waiting to pull flag for stragglers,
adjusting due to different online times...

ALL the things you see as a problem, I see as legitimate logistics
and makes the FAs a little less brain-dead !!! and it is like 25-30%.

Did you completely ignore the rest of my last comment ? @Dominionofgod
 

JessMac

Active Member
I’m still trying to get through this post. Love the title hate the novel. Will repost opinions next month when I finish reading.
 

JessMac

Active Member
@Dominionofgod ,
Part of why I see badge pools as bad is because the logistics alone
is a good chunk of teamwork/participation, another part is ...
I have a FA rethink thread going, where 1 kewl addition was bonus
pts per WP for each person adding a badge... Your badge pool
completely eliminates that even as a possibility...

Yes I agree , on our current screen we should see both "our badges"
and "FS badges" in 2 columns, so its right there.... FAs are already
pretty brain dead, and badge pools make it even more so.. While
its a good suggestion , in my own mind the cons outweigh the pros.

You know the pit is the bonus points rights? The top FS plow through all three roads as quickly as possible only taking time to ensure all members place a badge on current map. Once all three roads on all 3 maps are completed they throw themselves into the pit for as many additional points as possible. Speed is the key to additional bonus points. Your waypoint method would slow that whole process down.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
You know the pit is the bonus points rights? The top FS plow through all three roads as quickly as possible only taking time to ensure all members place a badge on current map. Once all three roads on all 3 maps are completed they throw themselves into the pit for as many additional points as possible. Speed is the key to additional bonus points. Your waypoint method would slow that whole process down.
The top fellowships usually do every waypoint on all three maps, or at the very least all of the tricolor ones. They won't rush through the maps without taking those, or they'll have very little chance of being a top fellowship in the FA.
 
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