Goods Imbalance

[Mykan]

I would like to be able to post a way to fix this, but am at a loss to think of any way this could really be fixed

There are lots of ideas for fixes, some better than others. The bigger question is what is the cause? The assumption been made is that "it is too much T3 goods", assuming that is the case you have to ask why are there so many T3 goods. Likely suspects

• Rankings grab - T3 factories give loads of points, so people build way more than "needed"
• Trader "abuse" - Many reasons for cross-tier but some of the big negative ones are
  • Using T3 as a way to "over-produce" T1 and T2
  • Trying to snag a trade from a miss-click
• Event buildings offering T3 goods

It is also possible it is a combination of multiple matters which means multiple solutions. Minor tweaks not a big sledge hammer for each.

I only see 3 major options.
1. Nerf T3 set buildings (queue pitchforks and torches)
2. Buff T1 & T2 production (OP T1&T2 sets next event?)
3. Introduce a T3 sink of some kind? (Massively weight spire catering towards T3?)

These might work depending on the cause, for example number 1 is pointless if event buildings aren't the cause but very effective if it is. For me I have had pages of these sort of trades for closing in on 2 years, well before the more recent event buildings. While they may have added to the issue I don't believe they are the root cause.

For me I think the first place to start is the trader:

• Provide a cross-tier filter
• Default the trader so cross-tier trades are off

This would eliminate the miss-click issue, reduce the less informed user issue while still allowing trading of this type for people who genuinely would like to participate. It also lets you "clean-up" the trader a lot.

Once you have done this you can reassess the situation and if needed then something like a T3 sink is probably the next best option. As it lets people who like to over build factories especially T3 ones to still have them for points but gives a use to the excess supply. Of course you would have to design the sink to only kick in from chapter 4 once new towns have these factories and are a little established with them.

If these don't fix things then it might be time to find the sledge hammer but only if the root cause can be identified.

 

[Ashrem]

There are lots of ideas for fixes, some better than others. The bigger question is what is the cause? The assumption been made is that "it is too much T3 goods", assuming that is the case you have to ask why are there so many T3 goods. Likely suspects

• Rankings grab - T3 factories give loads of points, so people build way more than "needed"
• Trader "abuse" - Many reasons for cross-tier but some of the big negative ones are
  • Using T3 as a way to "over-produce" T1 and T2
  • Trying to snag a trade from a miss-click
• Event buildings offering T3 goods

It is also possible it is a combination of multiple matters which means multiple solutions. Minor tweaks not a big sledge hammer for each.

Consider the last time you can think of multiple, active, analytical players (who have something to lose) saying that they believe something needs to be nerfed.

The problem has been building for a long time, it's not new. The Jester's tavern simply outlined it in sharp relief so that it is a lot harder to ignore.

People who have multiple factories and run them are at least required to produce the supplies to run them.

 

[Sir Squirrel]

I really wanted a cross-tier and sentiments goods filter in the trader, but the more I think about it the less I am sure it would help. I am fairly sure if you filtered out the cross-tiers and sentiments goods trades your trader window would look like this:

Spoiler: click me

 

[DeletedUser5521]

LoL that may have been a maximum. 8:6:4 was only for those with zero military or a lot of the premium expansions.

Yeah, Soggy, for about the first year (back when the dinosaurs walked about my little cities), the game was new and bright, premium expansions were really inexpensive, and just about everyone in my FSs had mega numbers of manufactories. When I hit Woodelves was when I cut my Marble factories from 10 DOWN to 8, which made me soooo sad because Woodies level 23 Marbles are beee-uuu-teee-fullll!! One of my favorite structures. I remember thinking "Whaaaaaaattt???? That dude cray!!!" the first time I saw your suggested factory numbers lol

• Provide a cross-tier filter

• Default the trader so cross-tier trades are off

YESSS please

 

[juniperknome]

for some reason it became cheek to remove all or most tier 1 and 2 and turbo load up tier 3 . at most 2 tier 3 is needed with the event building 1 is plenty and load up tir 1 and 2. 5 each is not unreasonable

 

[DeletedUser9601]

I just wonder how much of the 'don't bother building factories' angle is pushing this. If I remember correctly, 8 T1, 6 T2, 4 T3 at a minimum used to be a rule of thumb.

Maybe for blue city/max expansion players. Yeesh. I played 3/3/3 (or 4/3/3 if you have marble at T1 with its smaller footprint).

 

[DeletedUser9601]

I really think this comes down to @Mykan's point about trader abuse. Some people can get away with down-trading (and reaping huge rewards doing so), so they keep doing it. I presume someone must be taking their trades.
Question for the group - if you have 10 pages of cross-tiers, is it all 1 or 2 people? Because that's how it is for me. I might have 30 pages of trades. There might be 50 players offering trades. And 1-2 of those people are doing downstream cross-tier, and they're posting 10-15 pages.

While I do think the economy is broken, I think its more that the trader system is broken, and there are a variety of ways to fix it (change the star system, various filters).

I think ultimately the trader is going to have more "gluts" going forward. We're producing more goods and we're needing fewer goods as you progress (unless you dump them into the tournament). I think the real path forward is introducing some sort of game-changing mechanic that has us spending far less city space on goods production, and far more on a new resource.

 

[Ashrem]

While the trader needs fixing, it is not the source of the problem. I have mostly stopped running my T3 factories, got rid of two in the last month, and never offer cross tier trades. I am still running 4 - T1 and 4 - T2 factories 24/7, and my T3 exceeds the total of the other two combined. That is in no way the trader's fault.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

While the trader needs fixing, it is not the source of the problem. I have mostly stopped running my T3 factories, got rid of two in the last month, and never offer cross tier trades. I am still running 4 - T1 and 4 - T2 factories 24/7, and my T3 exceeds the total of the other two combined. That is in no way the trader's fault.

I mean its loosely "a problem" but it really only manifests itself in the trader. Its not like you're getting T3 for free. You're still devoting city space to it. Just not as much. Its just a question of are you getting too much T3 relative to T1 and T2.

If anything, I think the issue is that people aren't adapting game strategies and city layouts to accommodate very powerful sets. We all talk about "This set is worth 5 expansions" or "that set is worth 2 factories." But I think very few people actually delete the buildings they could now replace. And so now you have a lot of players over-producing T3, and trying to dump it in cross-tier trades.

I'd be curious. You note that there are basically no T1/T2 trades. If you want to balance out goods, are you able to do so?

 

[samidodamage]

Question for the group - if you have 10 pages of cross-tiers, is it all 1 or 2 people?

It used to be 1 or 2. Over the past several months, the number of cross-tiers (T3 downward) have mushroomed. Neighbors who never used to post them are posting them. Almost zero T1/T2 trades in my trader. To balance my goods, I post trades same tier with a 10% discount and they get taken over a couple of days. Our FS problem child has been silk. I tried 20% discounts offering Crystal/Scrolls. Eventually took down the last 5. Realized I could do T3:T2 at 1:1 and be happy to give it. Put those up and it took a day or so. At that point I was thinking of reducing my T3 factories, but now I'm keeping them as a source for silk

 

[Deborah M]

You all are assuming that everybody keeps the set buildings. In a way that makes me feel screwed for playing as Elvenar designed. Even they said in one of the Q&A's that there was an assumption that the sets would mostly be replaced by the following sets. That is how I and a whole lot of other players I know & see played the game. Most old sets were replaced by the newer sets. Then when new chapters came out most, if not all, sets went bye bye to make room for guest races. The result for me is that I only have the Carnival set minus one piece I disenchanted when I thought I wasn't going to put it out.

In my case, I have recently worked my way down from 45 magic houses to 18 + 8 regular houses & culture/pop buildings and sold off 4 magic workshops. When I did that I went from 10 of T1, T2 & T3 to 7 each and from 2 to 1 of T4, T5 & T6. I found myself running out of too much because I do rely on goods quite a bit for tournaments, especially if I go big. I do not like battling so auto-fight and cater all the way. I also want to be able to be a productive member of my FS for trades. So, I needed to go back to 8 each of T!, T2 & T3. Of course, for space it does help that I have all expansions. Now I have 20 expansions of "disposable" and clear space. If for some reason I get an excess of goods I'm happy to convert it to KP. Never enough KP for me

As far as the trader goes, it seems to be really messed up. It didn't seem that way until Constructs. I think so many people were forced to sell off so much to make room for constructs that now it is lopsided. For T3 I can go for long periods not seeing anybody requesting dust. Up until recently I didn't post trades much because there were always plenty of T3 trades already in the trader.

Now the worst of the worst is soap! Even now there is still 12 pages of soap demands even with 1/2 or more posting 3 stars

@samidodamage I wish you were closer to me on the map! I see your trades for sentient goods sometimes but not regular goods. Thank God I'm done with sentient goods for now but I wish I could help out with silk. I usually have plenty of it

 

[Ashrem]

Its not like you're getting T3 for free. You're still devoting city space to it. Just not as much. Its just a question of are you getting too much T3 relative to T1 and T2.

I think that''s untrue. I'm already getting as much mana as 7 grape farms from the fountain. plus the coins of two residences, The supplies of half a workshop, a bunch of divine seeds, 2KP and 12,000 culture. The 28,000 T3 goods really are free. The Mana is probably worth the space by itself.

 

[SoggyShorts]

We all talk about "This set is worth 5 expansions" or "that set is worth 2 factories." But I think very few people actually delete the buildings they could now replace. And so now you have a lot of players over-producing T3, and trying to dump it in cross-tier trades.

This is always an issue. I believe it's the core of why players claim that they need more space late game when costs actually don't increase by much.
E.G. A premium player with a 7:7:7 build gets into halflings unlocking T3 upgrades which increase production by 62%--how many of them drop 2 or 3 of their factories?
With Elvenar's powercreep you can improve your city significantly almost every event using the exact same space if you replace.

You all are assuming that everybody keeps the set buildings. In a way that makes me feel screwed for playing as Elvenar designed. Even they said in one of the Q&A's that there was an assumption that the sets would mostly be replaced by the following sets.

"Mostly". I highly doubt that your normal factories were more efficient than your winter set(if you got one) or even more efficient than kirit/krarak.
If your city has
New set->best buildings(not yet placed)
Old set->second best buildings
regular factories->3rd best buildings
Why would you replace your set instead of factories? Because Timon said "players will mostly replace old sets."
That doesn't even factor in RR spells.

 

[SoggyShorts]

. The Mana is probably worth the space by itself.

Not sure about that-- the mana production has a value of exactly zero for 6-8 months per year once you catch up to the tech tree.
Same for seeds really depending on how much value you place on pushing T4-6 to fellows.

 

[Ashrem]

Not sure about that-- the mana production has a value of exactly zero for 6-8 months per year once you catch up to the tech tree.
Same for seeds really depending on how much value you place on pushing T4-6 to fellows.

I probably should have said currently. Fortunately for me, I'm not planning on ever catching up to the tech tree, so any pauses tend to be self-inflicted.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

To balance my goods, I post trades same tier with a 10% discount and they get taken over a couple of days. Our FS problem child has been silk. I tried 20% discounts offering Crystal/Scrolls. Eventually took down the last 5. Realized I could do T3:T2 at 1:1 and be happy to give it. Put those up and it took a day or so. At that point I was thinking of reducing my T3 factories, but now I'm keeping them as a source for silk

I think sets, especially T3 sets, certainly exacerbate problems, and your post is a great example. If you're short on a particular good (silk) and now everyone has more goods, that delta is even greater.

Another problem they exacerbate is the idea that "I have a certain amount of excess goods, so I should do more with them." Usually that is via the tournament. The problem with the tournament is that it has a varied cost structure, and it can be hard to predict if you use a combo of fighting/catering. So your huge glut of T3 actually may not let you do proportionately more in tournaments, because you need T1/T2.

Two factors that I think will improve this problem far down the road (assuming Inno does nothing). First, the Timewarp sentient boost production means that plays go from having 1 of each tier to reasonably produce to 2. Most people can use Timewarp to get their sentient production relatively close to their Mountain Hall boosts. That means if there's a particular good your FS is short of, the FS can have twice as many people (assuming average boost distribution) build up a factory or two to match those needs. There's still decay, so its slower. But it gets you there eventually.
2. Smart people can start leveraging their preferred T1 or T2 boosts, and trade T2:T3 1:1, and get the same T3 production in a half or a third of the footprint. Free city space!

 

[DeletedUser20255]

I was thinking of reducing my T3 factories, but now I'm keeping them as a source for silk

Why not just build more silk manus. Sell your T3 factories if it's a question of space. Use your abundance of T3 goods to trade for silk in the meantime but not as a long-term solution. The long-term solution to demand exceeding supply has to be more supply.

 

[DeletedUser5521]

Why not just build more silk manus.

That would be the ideal solution for someone with boosted silk, of course. But if she is not boosted in silk, not so bueno. Awfully big footprint for little return..

 

[DeletedUser20255]

That would be the idea solution for someone with boosted silk, of course. But if she is not boosted in silk, not so bueno. Awfully big footprint for little return..

Still better than trading T3/T2 at 1:1 IMO. At least it's it starts to address the imbalance. At the same time she should be jumping on her silk-boosted producers in her FS and asking why they are not taking her trades. And if no response maybe it's not a very good FS.

 

[Deborah M]

"Mostly". I highly doubt that your normal factories were more efficient than your winter set(if you got one) or even more efficient than kirit/krarak.
If your city has
New set->best buildings(not yet placed)
Old set->second best buildings
regular factories->3rd best buildings
Why would you replace your set instead of factories? Because Timon said "players will mostly replace old sets."
That doesn't even factor in RR spells.

Now I think you are actually being snarky? I have said on here for the past couple of years that I always replaced my old sets with the new sets. It helps keep the game at least a little interesting by refreshing the looks. Then for Constructs, as I indicated above, set buildings had to go to fit the guest race. This revamping my city to replace magic buildings with culture/pop and a few regular houses is a huge experiment. First is getting used to dropping from #7 or 8 on Elcy to ranking 20. In the environment I play this game in it does matter regardless of how much some pooh pooh ranking. Keeping 20 expansions available for next race also stinks IMO. I think Elvenar really alienates a bunch of players by putting such a huge damper on building our cities in a city building game! Last but not least, if I get sick of looking at the same old thing, not being able to spruce it up as I go along then I'm thinking Elvenar will no longer be interesting to me. It does concern me that it is going to turn into the same old grind once I'm done with this project if I don't have a good way to still evolve my city while all those 20 expansions pretty much just sit there waiting more than half the time.