Goods Imbalance

[DeletedUser9601]

Still better than trading T3/T2 at 1:1 IMO.

Its not though. Assuming T3 costs 33% more space than T2 (basic assumption - since it depends on which chapter you're in, and what your boosts are, as building sizes don't become uniform until the last 3 chapters).
So you can keep a boosted T3 factory, produce 7 T3 goods (because of your 700% boost), and trade for 7 T2 goods.
Or you can build a non-boosted T2 factory, and produce 1 T2 good (because you have no boost).
So unless T3 takes more than 7x the space that a T2 factory takes, you're better off trading down 1:1 than you are running unboosted factories. But it doesn't. It takes about 33% per more space.
So your T3 factory really produces 4.69 T2 goods. Still much better than an unboosted T2 factory.

 

[DeletedUser20951]

To balance my goods, I post trades same tier with a 10% discount and they get taken over a couple of days. Our FS problem child has been silk. I tried 20% discounts offering Crystal/Scrolls.

Oh Jesus, I almost glossed right over this, but that sounds like a very rough neighborhood. Are there fellows you can funnel your second tier to, where they can then exchange it with their neighbors for silk?

 

[Ashrem]

Still better than trading T3/T2 at 1:1 IMO.

Actually, trading off boosted T3 production at 1:1 still gives you the equivalent of having about a 175% boost on the T2. And it doubles for producing T3 when you actually need it, which an unboosted T2 factory wouldn't.

 

[DeletedUser5521]

Still better than trading T3/T2 at 1:1 IMO.

Had a reply to this, but Tedious and Ashrem covered it, so no need to reiterate..

At the same time she should be jumping on her silk-boosted producers in her FS and asking why they are not taking her trades.

Are you serious?? I'm AM in 4 FSs, and I would NEVER think of "jumping" on any of my members for anything! That would certainly NOT boost FS morale

And if no response maybe it's not a very good FS.

...or maybe no response because the AM jumped on them instead of simply asking "Anyone with silk out there able to help out with some trades?"

 

[DeletedUser20951]

Are you serious?? I'm AM in 4 FSs, and I would NEVER think of "jumping" on any of my members for anything! That would certainly NOT boost FS morale

Completely agree. Don't Arch it anymore, but when I did, I would address issues in private with a fellow, and if there was no response or improvement, I would remove them, not harangue the player, nor try to incite bullying against them.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Maybe for blue city/max expansion players. Yeesh. I played 3/3/3 (or 4/3/3 if you have marble at T1 with its smaller footprint).

You guys are a bunch of high-rollers I am running 3/2/2 (had 5/2/2 when planks were a lot smaller). It's doable.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

I still think that the economy is not "broken" - it just needs time to settle down in a new equilibrium. What we observe (allegedly) is that there is increased supply of T3 with respect to T2/T1 - comparing to our previous equilibrium. What we expect to see in this case is that prices for T3 should go down with respect to T2/T1. As the prices go down, we would expect supply of T3 to decrease (remove/don't build extra T3 factories), and supply of T2/T1 to increase (build more T1/T2). These 2 processes converge until we get a new price.

Think about it - if current T2/T3 price would indeed be 1:1, why would you build or even keep T3s? Just build T2s, these are cheaper to build and operate, and trade them up to T3.

Now, the prices are sticky so it will take some time for people to realize that 4:1 price is no longer accepted by the market. All this is perfectly normal. The only thing that distorts the market is the star recommendations from the Trader, these are simply misleading as Trader is not standing by to buy or sell at 4:1 prices. But even this cannot persist for long - it doesn't matter what anyone's recommendation on the price is, in the end it is supply and demand that sets the prices. And if you're unable to move the goods at 4:1, you need to adjust prices.

By the way, this is not specific to cross-tier. There is no reason that all goods within the same tier will be perfectly balanced at all times. As such, there is no universal law that stipulates that, say, crystal:scrolls need to trade at 1:1.

TL;DR - I think the economy works out just fine - we may simply get T2/T3 prices significantly different from 4:1. Which is fine by me.

P.S. Some historical perspective: look at aluminum:gold prices back in the 19th century. Aluminum used to trade at 1:2 to gold (yes, it was twice as expensive). Within about 40 years with the advent of the new smelting process, aluminum became extremely common - as it is still to this day. The solution was not to nerf aluminum production But the outcome meant that aluminum:gold prices became more like 600:1 (so aluminum became cheaper by more that 1000x). Today, it is more like 20,000:1. And we're all cool with that.

 

[Vergazi]

Comparing make believe commodities to real world commodities is bizarre to my mind in this case. What revolutionary new manufacturing process do you propose for making silk in the game? or maybe I'm just tired and cranky...

 

[DeletedUser20255]

Are you serious?? I'm AM in 4 FSs, and I would NEVER think of "jumping" on any of my members for anything! That would certainly NOT boost FS morale
...or maybe no response because the AM jumped on them instead of simply asking "Anyone with silk out there able to help out with some trades?"

Firstly, yes. I'm serious.
Apparently the phrase "jumping on" is considered too strong. Asking "any silk out there able to help out" is another way of putting it. And what if Elvenstats tells you there are silk-producers out there that have never chatted or communicated in their life?
If it's not the AM's job to give producers a kick up the backside when needed then who's is it?

 

[DeletedUser]

Economic is broken flat down and T3 goods are multiplied like a plague. There are only players offering T3 goods.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Comparing make believe commodities to real world commodities is bizarre to my mind in this case. What revolutionary new manufacturing process do you propose for making silk in the game? or maybe I'm just tired and cranky...

Why? What's the difference? The market functions the same way. And I am not proposing a new manufacturing process - we already have it on the T3 side. It is event buildings.

 

[DeletedUser5521]

If it's not the AM's job to give producers a kick up the backside when needed then who's is it?

Wouldn't know. Never needed to kick anybody in the backside in this game for any reason. But to each their own way of running things I guess..

 

[Ashrem]

Why? What's the difference? The market functions the same way.

It doesn't. Among hundreds of other differences, in the real economy, if things become cheap, people find new things to do with them, and if they become dear, people find other ways to accomplish it. Players can not suddenly use Elixir instead of supplies, or invent a new good that can be used instead of silk to upgrade a building or negotiate with enemies.

We are seeing the swells ahead of a tsunami. With no path to T3 being used for other things, eventually it will be worth Less than T1, and it will be nothing but a joke.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

It doesn't. Among hundreds of other differences, in the real economy, if things become cheap, people find new things to do with them, and if they become dear, people find other ways to accomplish it. Players can not suddenly use Elixir instead of supplies, or invent a new good that can be used instead of silk to upgrade a building or negotiate with enemies.

We are seeing the swells ahead of a tsunami. With no path to T3 being used for other things, eventually it will be worth Less than T1, and it will be nothing but a joke.

Substitution puts some boundaries around how much price can adjust in the real world (and not everything has a reasonable replacement), but by itself it is not necessary. Laws of supply and demand still apply, with or without substitution.

And as I mentioned, with prices below T1 why would anyone have T3 manufactories in their cities? Everyone should just build T1, and trade for T3 with players desperate to offload their T3s. In fact, if prices fall far enough even players with T3 sets will be demolishing these in favor of T1 production + trading. But I just don't see this happening, I highly doubt there is that much T3 overcapacity. Regardless, there is a point where goods supply and demand meets. Until then, prices are going to move.

And we do have an unlimited goods sink - it is called tournament catering, so it's not like aggregate demand is going to dry up.

 

[Vergazi]

And we do have an unlimited goods sink - it is called tournament catering

Not to be a poopiehead overmuch, but last time I knew there were a finite amount of Tournament provinces and rounds. Granted, If one has an unlimited supply of time boosters then the supply of rounds is potentially infinite, but I highly doubt the Time Booster Fairy is going to do a fly-over and sprinkle us with an infinite number of time boosters. Sorry...I guess I'm a poopiehead after all.

 

[Ashrem]

Substitution puts some boundaries around how much price can adjust in the real world (and not everything has a reasonable replacement), but by itself it is not necessary. Laws of supply and demand still apply, with or without substitution.

The issue (as I mentioned re other uses), is that there is no way for players to increase demand. That can only be imposed externally. No matter how much extra there is in the economy, we can not make up other things to do with it.

And as I mentioned, with prices below T1 why would anyone have T3 manufactories in their cities? Everyone should just build T1, and trade for T3 with players desperate to offload their T3s.

That won't end it, it just delays the wave front. As long as some people can effectively produce free goods, they will eventually overwhelm the supply chain.

In fact, if prices fall far enough even players with T3 sets will be demolishing these in favor of T1 production + trading.

That could happen, if the rest of the set isn't worth having around. Even if it doesn't, over time those players will probably mostly go inactive or shift to other cities or hop off to the next world. Sadly, the damage is already showing, and by the time those things happen, it may be too late for the game.

And we do have an unlimited goods sink - it is called tournament catering, so it's not like aggregate demand is going to dry up.

We don't. It is not possible to go infinitely far in the tournament (even setting aside that you are limited by exploration) just because you have infinite supply of T3. Every single encounter requires goods from more than one level, so there is no effective change to the number of provinces you can do, because there is no infinite supply of T2.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Not to be a poopiehead overmuch, but last time I knew there were a finite amount of Tournament provinces and rounds. Granted, If one has an unlimited supply of time boosters then the supply of rounds is potentially infinite, but I highly doubt the Time Booster Fairy is going to do a fly-over and sprinkle us with an infinite number of time boosters. Sorry...I guess I'm a poopiehead after all.

You're doing all the provinces that you can, all the rounds you can? I don't. End game players have access to 40+ provinces each tournament. If done to 6*, that's more than 10K tournament points. Do you see many players hitting that? Considering catering costs are not linear, I don't see many people capable to exhaust their tournament allowance. So for all practical purposes, this sink is largely unlimited.

 

[Vergazi]

@MinMax Gamer Great, so you cater until you are out of tier1 and tier2 and still have a load of tier3. I agree with you about what you say about end game players, generally. However,

And we do have an unlimited goods sink

this sink is largely unlimited.

There is some daylight between these two assertions at this point meethinks. I think I'll let my comments stand at this point and cease this increasingly somethingish back and forth. Besides, got sun flares to collect! Yoiks!

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

You all so funny with your millions of elixir and your awesome locations. Meanwhile, on Felyndral, in my girlfriend's location, elixir is the good she has the least of and the good no one ever posts trades offering. She is almost done with Sorcerers and did not get lucky enough to get the Tavern. So obviously this excess is not everywhere in every world. And because it is not a game-wide problem, Inno will likely continue to ignore it.

 

[Socrates28]

Still better than trading T3/T2 at 1:1 IMO. At least it's it starts to address the imbalance. At the same time she should be jumping on her silk-boosted producers in her FS and asking why they are not taking her trades. And if no response maybe it's not a very good FS.

As a member of samidodamage's FS I firmly reject your assesment of it. Sami is the largest city in our FS and helps every member of it. I admit we are weak on silk production as those which have that boost are small and growing. They cannot support the entire FS because of their size. That is why they cannot take her trades.
However, we are a FELLOWSHIP and to suggest that just because we need to trade to have our needs for a particular resource met outside the fellowship does NOT make it what you suggest.
I believe you owe samidodamage an apology.
Encouragement of our smaller members is what is needed. Not jack boots and threats of expulsion.