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    Your Elvenar Team

Goods Imbalance

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
The entire point of this thread is that they need to change something, so thanks for pointing that out. The only thing players can do is stretch out the problem for a longer horizon.
Um, if you mean that players need to change something (build more T1/T2 vs T3), then yes. If you mean Inno needs to changes something, then no, that's not what I meant.

After players adjust their production capabilities, the market will be in a (new) equilibrium again.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Lower tier goods require more space to produce, and without the free goods there were already advanced players taking advantage of that. Players can not make enough t1 and t2 to offset the excess that is currently piling up.

This isn't a real-world economy. It isn't even a close as games that have global economies. It's a building game, with trading geared into it.
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
Lower tier goods require more space to produce, and without the free goods there were already advanced players taking advantage of that. Players can not make enough t1 and t2 to offset the excess that is currently piling up.
There are no free goods out there. All goods require time and space, some more or less than others. If players cannot make enough T1 and T2 today with their existing capabilities, then they need to build more T1/T2, and less T3. It is as simple as that. So far, I haven't seen this happening (hence relative T3 excess), but eventually market pressure will force just that.

This isn't a real-world economy. It isn't even a close as games that have global economies. It's a building game, with trading geared into it.
This is irrelevant - Elvenar has all the blocks in order for the market to function. There is ability to adjust supply, demand and to trade with floating prices. That's all that is required.
 

DeletedUser20255

Guest
Um, if you mean that players need to change something (build more T1/T2 vs T3), then yes. If you mean Inno needs to changes something, then no, that's not what I meant.

After players adjust their production capabilities, the market will be in a (new) equilibrium again.
I think Inno needs to change the star rating equilibrium of the 3 tiers. Just about everybody who reads the forums agrees the 16:4:1 ratio is not correct. Even if they don't do (or check :) ) the math for themselves. There will always be people who try to game the situation and take advantage but by changing the star ratings we won't have to work so hard to educate newbies.
 
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DeletedUser9601

Guest
Lower tier goods require more space to produce
No they don't. They require substantially less space. They only require more space if you trade up at 4:1.
And that's part of the possible solution. If there's a glut of T3, and you can trade T2 one to one for T3, you can save city space by deleting your T3 factories, fill the same space with T2, and end up with more goods on net.

It's just a possibility though. And it requires a decent risk for some players.
 

DeletedUser20255

Guest
No they don't. They require substantially less space. They only require more space if you trade up at 4:1.
And that's part of the possible solution. If there's a glut of T3, and you can trade T2 one to one for T3, you can save city space by deleting your T3 factories, fill the same space with T2, and end up with more goods on net.

It's just a possibility though. And it requires a decent risk for some players.
Yep. You would be betting that a significant portion of your traders accept that T2 are worth T3 1:1. An individual choice. Not one I'm ready to make.
 

kctanzen

Well-Known Member
I suppose. It would only take 16 TM2 (96 squares) of my current level to make as many T2 as the T3 my previous-chapter Jester's tavern (16 squares) makes (setting aside culture and a kp every day).

I wasn't implying replacement, but thinking more along lines of addition to -- relatively small, no culture / supply support needed, and provides something you need. That seems to be a pretty reasonable solution for how I try to solve a problem. Small bits, over time, make large impacts - and it has been said many times by many voices that Elvenar is a game of patience.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
There are no free goods out there. All goods require time and space, some more or less than others.
We've been here before. Most of those sets are so useful (exclusive of their T3) production, that the T3 production really is free. Even if they took up the same space, and gave no T3 goods, they'd be worth having. So far we haven't eve gotten into the T3 goods produced by wishing wells, which people quite happily assess as worth farming purely for diamonds, and so are producing free T3 goods 30% of the time. I bet there are more ten thousand wishing wells deployed in each world right now. Each one producing tens of thousands of T3 during its 100 days without the owner giving two cents for the space.

There are no stats available to us to to prove one way or the other, so I'm just not going to address this any more with you. I don't think it will take more than a couple of months for either them to make some changes, or there to be substantially more evidence about who is right.
 

DeletedUser17455

Guest
I'm not getting hurt in the least.

You started this thread because you think the trades you are seeing are hurting other players? That's very nice :D

I'm OK! I'm short on T1 and T2 goods. I didn't realize that I was slowly running out until a 10 chest week happened. Then I was left with almost nothing and I thought "I'll be recovered in a few weeks". It didn't happen! Now I am adjusting my play style so that I will be OK in the long-run.

The nice thing about Elvenar vs the 2009 economic crisis is that I am not at risk of losing my house or my job.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
You started this thread because you think the trades you are seeing are hurting other players? That's very nice
I think if you look at my post history, I'm most often concerned with retaining players. I enjoy the game and want it to continue to be successful. It bothers me a lot when I get new neighbours and they make it past the first couple of days then vanish. I'm still helping Potston on Felandryl every day, though it will be at least a year or two before I'll be in their range, because it looks like there's stuff going on, and I want them to stick. I think it's a mobile only player, as I've never gotten a response to PMs, and they haven't found a fellowship, Every day at 6:00pm my calendar goes off to remind me to help them, in hopes that they will still be there a month from now.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Like all things artificial, market forces will eventually create serious imbalances. The entire set limits on the ratio of this to that is artificial and as the game mechanics change the stress on the the artificial market system becomes greater. The only viable solution is to rid the system of it's constraints and let it settle down into a flexible, and natural, valuation based upon the perceived value of the goods being traded. Those values are not, currently, really allowed to fluctuate so as the game changes they have a difficult time moving with the game. it's a basic strategy problem the developers got wrong at the beginning. They should have allowed a free floating relationship between each resource and let the market adjust itself...it would have been less work for them and a lot less coding as well.

What is being suggested is supply side economic theory. Adjust the supply of this or that and the balance will return -- until market conditions change and the new supply levels are out of sync and you again have to change the supply to demand ratio. With the new, new supply levels you go for a while until their out of sync again and so on and so on. A lot of work for little reward, in my opinion.

This isn't a real world economy and thus the fluctuations of a free market system will not cause anybody to actually starve to death (as might happen, and has happened in the real world), so there is really no reason to not allow a free market system to prevail.

AJ
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
I keep thinking about this. For as long as I remember the mantra has been that event prizes are lame. So now that there are a bunch of event prizes that are far from lame we are coming here complaining about the imbalance consequence caused by some powerful event prizes. While I am not thrilled with the glut of cross-tier trades and slow trades on what I need, I keep thinking that Elvenar devs are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
 

Socrates28

Well-Known Member
I have heard of the idea in this tread for awhile. I certainly see that certain areas and Fs's have shortages of players and of goods. I also see the glut of cross tier trades and the cross tier imbalanced ones, neither of which I take unless I am funneling goods to other members of my FS. I try to keep posted 50+ trades, same tier and 1:1, at all times split between 1,000 and 500 size. Since I have been doing this my non-boosted goods are all heathy and my boosted are as well. they are taken mostly by non-FS traders about 60% of the time. I must constanlty re-post these trades to the tune of 30 to 50 a day.
Perhaps what we are seeing is not necessairly a glut of t3, but of people trying to take advantage of others in their trading style on a large scale? (I try never to underestimate the level and extent of human greed, especially in myself.) If that is so, then they will eventually figure out that it is not working as well as it did before and stop, or their trades will stay there forever. I can think of one trader where this is so.
In that case Inno should do nothing and we must do a better job at showing newer players just how they are being taken advantage of.
 

DeletedUser17455

Guest
I also have 100k plus of each T3 good and < 50k of each T1 and T2 and I agree that this seems to represent a "glut".

I don't agree that "the economy is broken" and I don't agree that it is clear that this glut will lower retention.

In my first 3 months I had a variety of manufactories, not just my boost, because it is not "obvious" that you should only build your boost. If I recall, the early game teaches you to have a variety of manufactories, and it is only later when I joined a fellowship that my fellows explained that I should focus on my boosted goods.

So that's my conclusion:
- I think that very new players will not be turned off because the trader doesn't have a lot of trades.
- after several months of playing, they will join a fellowship and then they can coordinate with their fellows
- players like me or you are fine: we already know how to play the game

---

I also think that there is rubber banding built in. When I first acquired my dust buildings they were the crown of my civilization. I traded down for everything I needed. My surplus in all tiers was mighty. When I did the math to compare dust per square from the event building to steel per square of my boosted manus it was like, the event buildings were many many times better. I sold my steel buildings and used the space for armouries.

If I re-did those calculations today, I am certain that the dust buildings would be close to worthless. Why? Because of the chapters? No! Because dust is almost worthless in the current economy! Very soon every reasonable player with a dust event building is going to sell it off and the glut will end (and there will be a short period where everyone is on the forum saying "the economy is broken because no one is selling T3 goods!"

Yeah so: there is no "free dust building" because when dust becomes free it becomes worthless, which means those tiles are wasted, which means we remove them, which means no more free dust. Maybe some "prisoner's dilemma" stuff will make it so that people are slow to sell their T3 event buildings because they don't want to be the clown who turns out the lights.

That's what I think, anyway.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
This is not about the broken economy in the game or “The Glut”. It is about the many cross tier trades listed and the amount is so high making it unpleasant.

Players do cross tier because they do not generate enough. I had the same problem months ago. Destroyed my non boosted manufacturies and only built boosted ones. Problem solved. If someone see a problem they need to keep tweaking and research to see how to deal with it without affecting others with these trades.
 

DeletedUser20255

Guest
If Inno is too invested or too stubborn to change the 16:4:1 2 star ratio couldn't they fix the glut on the demand side. Change the "price" of catering, negotiating, upgrades and research in goods so that it reflects a lesser value of T3 goods. Would that work?
 
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