• Dear forum visitor,

    It looks as though you have not registered for a forum account, or are not signed in. In order to participate in current discussions or create new threads, you will need to register for a forum account by clicking on the link below.

    Click here to register for a forum account!

    If you already have a forum account, you can simply click on the 'Log in' button at the top right of your forum screen.

    Your Elvenar Team

Goods Imbalance

Vergazi

Well-Known Member
The construct guest race space only accounts for no more than half of those wishing wells (taking road space into consideration). Sounds like that person can afford to run two guest races at once.
I suspect that they already had half the wells deployed already and just plopped down the rest that they had stored up in their inventory as soon as Constructs was finished. Makes me wonder though, in the final chapters before the next guest race...don't you typically need to save certain things for use in beginning quests lines as a new chapter begins?
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Have you ever studied feudalism or monopolies?

So all of the people who don't have access to large amounts of free T3 productions should just work harder to produce T1 and T2 and trade up, accepting whatever price the free producers settle on, because the people who are producing large amounts of free T3 are special, and those who have to run T3 factories can just be run out of the market since they clearly don't belong there.

I think what the person was suggesting was those with "excess" T3 can adjust their towns so they aren't having such an issue. Or as someone else said, find an avenue to spend it productively like KP.

I don't question that there are several large WW farms out there. What I have doubts on is that these cities represent any significant proportion of the server population. When you have tens of thousands of players on a server, a few dozen cities even with 20-30 WWs won't move the needle. If I have to speculate, the average Elvenar player would rather pay for the same amount of diamonds that they can get via massive WW farm. The extreme cases that we do indeed see are just that - extreme cases.

Where this sort of thing will have an impact is in the market surrounding that player. No clue how many people that is because trading is only nearest 200 plus fellowship. I think the sets fall into a similar category which is another reason I don't feel they are the root cause of the issue. I have not seen many set farms so again the problem from such large exceptions should be limited. If there is a more universal issue it would speak to a problem that is more universal. Granted it is possible the tiny population of players on the forum were the unlucky ones to have such exceptions in their neighbourhood/fellowship. Again one would think neighbourhood cause if it is your fellowship there are simple solutions there as well.

Is it possible for someone to provide some proof to support the hypothesis that sets are the issue? Short of access to inno's data anything we do is mostly speculation or isolated to our section of the map/server
 

Vergazi

Well-Known Member
There is also the forums themselves. If someone wanted to they could go and look back over the last few years and see when all of this talk about tier3 being a problem began and that would be a fairly good indicator of when it began.
 

DeletedUser17455

Guest
So all of the people who don't have access to large amounts of free T3 productions should just work harder to produce T1 and T2 and trade up, accepting whatever price the free producers settle on, because the people who are producing large amounts of free T3 are special, and those who have to run T3 factories can just be run out of the market since they clearly don't belong there.

I just don' think this is a fair reading of the situation.

- early chapter players who are not in a fellowship should be self-sufficient
- players who are in a fellowship can discuss it in their fellowship (we limit cross-tier trades in mine, for example)
- middling players who are contributing to the glut of T3, like me, are now finding that they have a hard time trading for T1 and T2 so they will shift production, which they can do because they are middling
- the rich will stay rich

The "free producers" are not in control of T3 goods they do not have a monopoly. I think this is not a good analogy.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Makes me wonder though, in the final chapters before the next guest race...don't you typically need to save certain things for use in beginning quests lines as a new chapter begins?

You don't need to keep anything. People talk about that for the quests that say delte x building but those quests don't say delete a level 4 portal they just say a portal. From memory you can start a portal production and sell (not cancel) it before completion and it still counts. So for the sake of 20secs you don't need to keep anything, especially not for months and months.

There is also the forums themselves. If someone wanted to they could go and look back over the last few years and see when all of this talk about tier3 being a problem began and that would be a fairly good indicator of when it began.

Interesting idea. Perspective still comes into play a bit as I firmly believe the T3 cross-tier trading is a major part (if not the issue), and that has been complained about forever but the frequency has certainly ramped up more and more over time.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Where this sort of thing will have an impact is in the market surrounding that player. No clue how many people that is because trading is only nearest 200 plus fellowship.

I am not sure that number applies once you scout beyond those 200 nearest neighbors. I have neighbors beyond that who show up in my trader, including a couple who were the 250th or so neighbor I discovered.
 

DeletedUser9601

Guest
Elvenar isn't a functional economy. It's an artificial economy for the game's purpose.

Have you ever studied feudalism or monopolies?

So all of the people who don't have access to large amounts of free T3 productions should just work harder to produce T1 and T2 and trade up, accepting whatever price the free producers settle on, because the people who are producing large amounts of free T3 are special, and those who have to run T3 factories can just be run out of the market since they clearly don't belong there.

Yes, all those fellowships that run on the back of Chapter 4 serfs. :rolleyes:

No one without large T3 productions are complaining. They're doing just fine (though they're probably not as successful in tournaments). Some random player's T3 excess doesn't hurt my T1 or T2 production in the general progress of the game. They might make it harder for me to even out my T1 or T2 goods, but that's something to address in #1.

This "problem" is a problem for two types of people.
1. People who don't want to pick a balanced FS, and so have trouble evening out tier goods. That's fine. But that's 100% on them. You can't say "I want to play with a small set of people, or close friends, or with 24 steel producers" then also complain about your trade results. Have your cake, or eat it. Not both. And that's a problem that existed well before the T3 glut from sets.
2. People who don't like the trader having 50+ pages of cross-tier trades. I'd call this an "annoyance," and option 2 (which hopefully Inno sees as the simple answer) hopefully settles it.

The "solution" is easy and twofold.
1. Build more T1 or T2 if you see a lot of cross-tier down trades, and capitalize on good returns. Don't make this into some sort of unite-the-proleteriat "haves vs have-nots" issue. If anything, strong set buildings are EXACTLY the sort of building that can bridge that gap. If you start playing now, there's nothing you can do short of spending $100s on blue buildings to compete with a player with a level 30 GA and Needles. The sets can equalize that difference so much more so than the standard buildings.
2. Have the next set produce T1 or T2. The problem as we all see it is that the game was mostly balanced around equal production of T1:T2:T3. Sets have offset this a bit.

I don't want to see Inno tweak tech costs, or catering costs, or whatever else might sop up the excess T3, because I don't trust them to do it right. The fact that their heads are still in the sand based on the star-rating system for cross-tier trades, which has been a 4+ year issue, gives me zero trust.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I think what the person was suggesting was those with "excess" T3 can adjust their towns so they aren't having such an issue. Or as someone else said, find an avenue to spend it productively like KP.
Why should they, when everyone else is being told to just produce more T1 and T2 to balance it. They can keep offering their trades at virtually any price, because the goods cost them almost zero to produce. That's what anti-trust investigations are usually about. When one group can produce a good for substantially less than anyone else, they can control the market by lowering the price until their competition is driven out. There is no disincentive that can cause me to stop making them. I don't care if they are there or not. I drag my mouse over the building that gives me 1/3 of my daily Mana needs, and a bunch of coins and supplies and KP, and without any extra effort, I've picked up 30,000 T3. There's nothing any player can do that will make it worth my while to be careful not to produce them. If I trade them 1:1 for T2, or even T1, they cost my less than anyone who doesn't have those buildings. Zero supplies and zero space. The essential point is that the market can not drive me out by pricing them too low. They are free to me. Using that space for anything else would cost me 14,000 mana per day on my fountain. Several times what I could get from putting any other buildings in those squares. There's absolutely nothing today that makes it worth my while to stop getting those T3.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Yes, all those fellowships that run on the back of Chapter 4 serfs. :rolleyes:

No one without large T3 productions are complaining.

Don't make this into some sort of unite-the-proleteriat "haves vs have-nots" issue.
I think you missed the part where I'm one of the haves. The issue is costing me nothing. I freed up all kinds of space by getting rid of some T3 factories I don't need any more. So now I have more T3 than I can use, for free, and I get to m ake more T1 and T2 at a lower opportunity cost than the people who don't have those buildings. I'm feeding smaller FS members to 1000 points or more a week because I have no use for the goods I produce. that is great for my FS, not so great for those who aren't so lucky.
 

DeletedUser17455

Guest
They are free to me.

That's just not true. Those buildings take space and if T3 goods continue to drop in trade value, then at some point those tiles will be producing T3 that you trade for T2 that you could have produced more cheaply with T2 manufactories. At that point you can insist all you want that the goods are "free" but you are paying an opportunity cost by not replacing them with the (now more lucrative) T2 manufactories.

not take advantage of their advantage

Right but the advantage is going to vanish, is what I am saying. No question that I made out like a bandit with my dust production: no question. And now, because everyone has been "making out like a bandit" we are all worse off! Just like real life, we have a prisoner's dilema thing where we all chose the greedy strategy and now we are all worse off.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
That's just not true. Those buildings take space and if T3 goods continue to drop in trade value, then at some point those tiles will be producing T3 that you trade for T2 that you could have produced more cheaply with T2 manufactories. At that point you can insist all you want that the goods are "free" but you are paying an opportunity cost by not replacing them with the (now more lucrative) T2 manufactories.
You are absolutely wrong, which I explained a little later. Removing my tavern would cost me 14,000 mana per day by dropping the fourth link on my Fountain. There is no building or buildings available to me that makes it worth my while to give up that 14,000 mana. Anything else I get from it is 100% free of opportunity cost.
Right but the advantage is going to vanish, is what I am saying. No question that I made out like a bandit with my dust production: no question. And now, because everyone has been "making out like a bandit" we are all worse off! Just like real life, we have a prisoner's dilema thing where we all chose the greedy strategy and now we are all worse off.
I'm not worse off. I have more T3 than ever, and I got back all the space my factories used.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
I'm not worse off. I have more T3 than ever, and I got back all the space my factories used.

Yep, and in addition to certain event buildings, another reason why I am well off for tier 3 goods is that I am in chapter 14 and constantly make my tier 6 boosted sentient good and trade for the other two sentient goods every day. So every night, when the sentient goods decay, my tier 3 goods all go up up thousands at a time. I have one boosted tier 3 gem manufactory left and I have one boosted manufactory for the silly soap sentient good and that is all I need of either.

I am starting to realize that, while a lot of people are not saying what chapter they are in when talking about the goods imbalances they are experiencing, we may be able to draw a line between players chapter 11 or before and players chapter 12 and beyond. More advanced players are more likely to have the event buildings and are also getting normal goods back every night as their sentient goods decay.
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
There's nothing any player can do that will make it worth my while to be careful not to produce them. If I trade them 1:1 for T2, or even T1, they cost my less than anyone who doesn't have those buildings. Zero supplies and zero space. The essential point is that the market can not drive me out by pricing them too low. They are free to me. Using that space for anything else would cost me 14,000 mana per day on my fountain. Several times what I could get from putting any other buildings in those squares. There's absolutely nothing today that makes it worth my while to stop getting those T3.
I think you're missing the point of free trade ;) No one wants to drive you and your efficient T3 production out (well, maybe some Marx followers ;) ). On the contrary, you are (or can be) a very valuable participant in the marketplace. By all means, do not delete these sets! What is being suggested as efficient is for other people without sets to build less or no T3s. They are just not efficient. Instead, they should focus on T1/T2, and you and other people with T3 sets can provide for everyone's T3 needs. Everyone benefits. That's the point of comparative advantage.
 

DeletedUser17455

Guest
EDIT: as @Ashrem mentioned, their fountain is Chapter 12. I've adjusted the numbers to reflect this.

@Ashrem Your highest scoring city is on Felyndral, I presume that's the one you are talking about?

According to elvenstats you are in Chapter 13
According to elvenarchitect your Carnival Set was earned in Chapter 11
Your fountain is in Chapter 12

Your Jester's Tavern is 4x4 = 16 tiles
If you get rid of it you lose the 4th link on your Fountain
The 4th link is worth 14000 mana / day or 583 mana / hour

A Chapter 13 Magical Mana Hut produces ~70 mana / hour and is 2x2 = 4 tiles.

Two Magical Mana Huts produce 560 / hour and take up 8 tiles.

Right?

So you can't currently argue that 14,000 mana from the Tavern means the T3 goods are "free": they are costing you mana. You are spending ~12000 mana (the difference between 1 tavern and 4 mana huts) every day on the 30k T3 goods from the Tavern.

Now, I'm not saying that that this means that you should sell the tavern! 16k mana for 30k T3 goods is probably still a great deal!

I'm saying that you can't just waive your hands and say "it's free!" because you feel like it is free. If we do the math for the T3 manufactories we will no doubt see that the Tavern is still 100% worth the space. The T3 goods from the tavern are probably still "free" for the time being, in the sense that you should not replace it. After all, manufactories are _huge_ when you factor in the population, culture, and supplies they require. I'm just saying that they are not infinitely huge, which means that _if_ the price of T3 goods continues to decrease and _if_ you continue to advance in the chapters there will come a time when you really would be better off selling the tavern, throwing down some T2 manufactories, and trading (up) for the T3 goods. Or building your T3 manufactories if the economy is back to nice tradesies.

Lots of contingencies in there! I am trying to be honest about my convictions here. I am not saying that your tavern is bad _now_ I am saying that it _could_ be bad _eventually_ and that I think this is likely.

elvenarchitect: https://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/f4132209c2434c90b8f235d2a7288ab3/
 
Last edited:

Crowella

Well-Known Member
I am a new player (around 4k points) and just unlocked my production boost for elixir. I haven't built an elixir manufactory yet. I just traded 2500 crystal (my tier 2 boost) for 2500 elixir in a straight trade. If I could continue to do that, I might never build my elixir manufactory (or more likely I'll build one but only one). So it's possible that this might even out over a long period of time, and people will just come to put up with cross-tier trades.

By the way, Ashrem, those small players you are feeding so they can get 1k points in the tournament may not really need that help. I got 1600 points in the last tourney on my own. The main limit on tournament score is 1) dedication and 2) open provinces. Of course, having a level 10 fire phoenix doesn't hurt.
 

DeletedUser20951

Guest
No one without large T3 productions are complaining.
One is for sure, and that's me (the only me that truly matters). It's almost certain I am complaining when I open my mouth, though, so perhaps this is irrelevant, but I produce less third tier than my other tiers and have much less in stock (I could actually benefit, somewhat, from accepting cross-tier, but I would be undercut on the exchange, regardless). I took a look at the event prizes the finger is being pointed at (which I firmly agree with), saw how, at my chapter, they would mainly just give me more third tier goods (although I didn't realize then the extent of how great an amount overall) and nixed any inclination I had to grab 'em because I was already well on my way towards a balanced goods production. I hate imbalance, especially when it might tempt me to try to take advantage of others to correct it.
They are just not efficient. Instead, they should focus on T1/T2, and you and other people with T3 sets can provide for everyone's T3 needs. Everyone benefits. That's the point of comparative advantage.
It has been proven, with the Architect in a three year old beta thread discussing cross-tier trading, that you would massively exceed your total city space in order to be able to build enough lower tier to match third... at the default rate. If it were equal amount trades, one for one, you could come out ahead, but it would merely be shifting the problem to where constructing a mass of lower tier factories would rule supreme*, and require, to function, that a significant portion of players accept this ratio. Possible? Yes. Advisable? No.

*but only in a manner of speaking. The manual labor and workshop cost of constructing and maintaining these factories, so that the supposedly more efficient goods produced in this way could be traded with the players using the much easier third tier event producers, is not what I consider to be an advantageous route.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
@Ashrem Your highest scoring city is on Felyndral, I presume that's the one you are talking about?
According to elvenstats you are in Chapter 13
According to elvenarchitect your Carnival Set was earned in Chapter 11

Your Jester's Tavern is 4x4 = 16 tiles
If you get rid of it you lose the 4th link on your Fountain
The 4th link is worth 10625 mana / day or 442 mana / hour

A Chapter 13 Magical Mana Hut produces ~70 mana / hour and is 2x2 = 4 tiles.

Two Magical Mana Huts produce 560 / hour and take up 8 tiles.

Right?

So you can't currently argue that 10,625 mana from the Tavern means the T3 goods are "free": they are costing you mana. You are spending 16255 mana (the difference between 1 tavern and 4 mana huts) every day on the 30k T3 goods from the Tavern.

Now, I'm not saying that that this means that you should sell the tavern! 16k mana for 30k T3 goods is probably still a great deal!

I'm saying that you can't just waive your hands and say "it's free!" because you feel like it is free. If we do the math for the T3 manufactories we will no doubt see that the Tavern is still 100% worth the space. The T3 goods from the tavern are probably still "free" for the time being, in the sense that you should not replace it. After all, manufactories are _huge_ when you factor in the population, culture, and supplies they require. I'm just saying that they are not infinitely huge, which means that _if_ the price of T3 goods continues to decrease and _if_ you continue to advance in the chapters there will come a time when you really would be better off selling the tavern, throwing down some T2 manufactories, and trading (up) for the T3 goods. Or building your T3 manufactories if the economy is back to nice tradesies.

Lots of contingencies in there! I am trying to be honest about my convictions here. I am not saying that your tavern is bad _now_ I am saying that it _could_ be bad _eventually_ and that I think this is likely.

elvenarchitect: https://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/f4132209c2434c90b8f235d2a7288ab3/
Partially right.
  1. I didn't know what I was doing when I started, so all of my cities are on Felyndral, only one of which is "Ashrem."
  2. I upgraded Ashrem's Fountain to chapter 12 weeks ago, so the numbers I quoted were accurate for that city while yours are not. I did not bother to upgrade the rest of the set, because it's primary value for me is Mana production. I will upgrade the fountain to chapter 13 soon. Unless mana becomes significantly less useful (or something else changes), my fountain will always be one of the first things I upgrade, so the tavern will continue to be free production.
  3. There is not an infinite supply of mana huts. I have deployed all of the mana huts to which I have access. You may not pretend that there is an opportunity cost to my not replacing my Jester's hut with buildings I can't deploy. Unless you mean to assert that I am missing out on the opportunity of my bank's high interest rate on accounts with over $1,000,000 in them because I don't have a million dollars? At 100% risk of repeating myself "There is no building or buildings available to me" that change the value of the Jester's tavern as a mana bump on my fountain. If the mana hut becomes craftable, or if a time comes when I have to choose between deploying a mana hut or not because I'm low on space, then we will be operating under different conditions.
I'm saying that you can't just waive your hands and say "it's free!" because you feel like it is free.
(bolding above is mine) Nor can you wave your hands at elvenarchitect and pretend that I am lying about my production numbers. Here's a hint: If I list specific numbers, rather than talking about thousands or tens of thousands, I've probably looked at them pretty carefully and I am not fond of being called a liar, no matter how subtle it is.

I think you're missing the point of free trade
Since you quoted it, I presume you're trying to take my response to someone who said players with free goods should just stop producing them and everything will be fine as a misunderstanding of how free trade works? I don't think so.
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
If it were equal amount trades, one for one, you could come out ahead, but it would merely be shifting the problem to where constructing a mass of lower tier factories would rule supreme*, and require, to function, that a significant portion of players accept this ratio. Possible? Yes. Advisable? No.
Why mass T1/T2 would rule supreme? They won't. Market equilibrium is just that - equilibrium, nothing "rules supreme" there. 4:1 and 1:1 are not just two possible scenarios. At 4:1 it is more efficient to build more T3, and 1:4 (or perhaps even at 1:1) it is more efficient to build more T2. At some point in-between there is an equilibrium where market in aggregate would be indifferent. It is likely not 1:4 nor 1:1.

So why is this not advisable?
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
If I could continue to do that, I might never build my elixir manufactory (or more likely I'll build one but only one). So it's possible that this might even out over a long period of time, and people will just come to put up with cross-tier trades.
This is exactly the free market mechanism in action that I was outlining. It is already happening.
 
Top