Greedy Players

[nightrider1]

I find it obnoxious and totally against the the atmosphere of community play that some players are using their size to vacuum up sentient goods to corner the market and then post 2 to 1 trades in their favor making it impossible to to move forward in the game . I won't post names but its not hard to figure out
NIGHTRIDER

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Before the trade system was updated a few weeks ago, 2:1 cross-tier trades would have been awesome. But now that the star ratings were adjusted, it is suddenly a bad deal?

 

[KarlD]

I find it obnoxious and totally against the the atmosphere of community play that some players are using their size to vacuum up sentient goods to corner the market and then post 2 to 1 trades in their favor making it impossible to to move forward in the game . I won't post names but its not hard to figure out
NIGHTRIDER

Are you talking about Sinya Arda or do you have another world in mind?

 

[KarlD]

Before the trade system was updated a few weeks ago, 2:1 cross-tier trades would have been awesome. But now that the star ratings were adjusted, it is suddenly a bad deal?

They aren't talking about cross-tier trades. There are people placing zero star trades asking 2 for 1 in the same tier. In some worlds certain sentient goods are relatively scarce and people take these trades because it's actually cheaper than the wholesaler because you can trade larger quantities at that price whereas the wholesaler price increases quickly. Yes, you can place a trade for a better price, but there's no knowing if or when your trade will get taken.

I have mixed feelings about this. There's the part of me that believes in free trade. If there are people who, of their own free will, are willing to give me 200 bismuth for 100 soap then why shouldn't they have the opportunity to take that trade? They save goods compared to the wholesaler and I make a profit. We both win. Yay!! The problem comes when I use the profits to bid up the price to get more of the scarce goods, soap in this example. Bidding up the price makes it more difficult for all bismuth producers to get the soap they need. So I can trade back and forth and make a profit without actually having produced anything while making trading more difficult for the many bismuth producers who have to offer higher amounts to get their trades taken.

Now when I was confronted with this issue I chose to build more factories and use MM spells and produce a ton of bismuth which I then used to place higher bids for soap. So still the price of soap went up, but in a way some might perceive as a more holistic manner. I'm not sure how much it really matters in the end since the price has to go up because of the law of supply and demand. If you want to get your trade taken you have to get to the top of the list and that's by offering a bigger bonus. If you are not patient enough to wait indefinitely for enough soap to become available that you can get an even trade taken then you will have to bid more. The only question is how you get the extra goods you need in order to bid more. I think people who trade back and forth tend to push the price up higher and faster. It's one thing for a bunch of bismuth producers to bid against each other, but when non-bismuth producers are making the top bids offering bismuth then there's a problem.

 

[mucksterme]

I am constantly amazed to see bad sentinent trades.
The trades are global so it doesn't matter what your neighborhood or FS are like
Maybe I'm just lucky to be on F world, but it seems impossible that anyone could corner the market

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Yes, you can place a trade for a better price, but there's no knowing if or when your trade will get taken.

That's how all markets work. There are market makers, and then there are price takers. Market makers buy low and sell high, providing liquidity and earning bid/ask spread. Price takers pay this spread; they pay it for immediate access to resources, and certainty of price. Market makers bear the risk of being unable to exit their positions at a profit (hence the spread).

This is especially true with trading perishable resources such as sentient goods. If they don't have their trades taken, noticeable part of their resources disappears (as far as value is concerned). Those guys are also presumably buying scarce resources at the top prices, but still can have enough people buying at even higher prices. Those buyers can do better if they just offer higher prices directly to the producers (still lower than that they're getting it for). But they lose certainty of timing and even final price. Clearly there are enough impatient people who can justify reseller prices.

I very much doubt that there is true cornering of the market. For that, 1 or a few players would need to soak up a large proportion of the daily supply of the whole world. This sounds highly unlikely, with paying top prices and decay preventing accumulation of larger amounts of sentients. And as long as there is more than 1 player in the scheme, they would have to run a cartel (complicated) or compete against each other (bringing margins and prices down).

TL;DR: Existence of such businesses indicates that there is enough demand for the goods even at those prices. Don't blame people who are filling the market need; this is part of the price discovery process.

 

[KarlD]

Existence of such businesses indicates that there is enough demand for the goods even at those prices. Don't blame people who are filling the market need; this is part of the price discovery process.

I agree with everything you've said. The problem is that this is a real-world issue that has intruded on Elvenar. I think many of us have been enjoying Elvenar largely because it's more of a cooperative game than a competitive one. We compete to a certain extent in tournaments and FA in that we can get something for doing better than someone else, mostly ranking points, but also crappy prizes in the case of FA; but for the most part we compete against Inno to get more prizes without respect to how anyone else did. For most of my time here I could place 1:1 trades and get them taken. Many people offer bonuses on trades, not because they have to, but because there's a culture of being helpful to others, even those outside their fs. Now with these huge trade imbalances we have to compete with one another whether we like it or not. If we want to complete Chapter 15 especially and grow our city in an expeditious manner we must outbid others to get what we need. It's changing the nature of Elvenar and many of us are not so happy about this.

When I first realized the effect the arbitrageurs were having on trading I was angry. It was outrageous that someone who wasn't boosted in the overabundant good was placing trades offering this good with huge premiums while those of us boosted in that good couldn't make any progress. But eventually I realized that I just needed to relax and play the game as it is. I was in Chapter 15. Where was I rushing to? I just built more factories to compensate for the higher prices and played the game. Elvenar is not a game for those who lack patience.

 

[AtaguS]

@KarlD Well said. Couldn't agree more

 

[DeletedUser2959]

I'm not suggesting it doesn't happen, but my limited brain just can't wrap itself around the idea of cornering a market that has no value. Why the hell would anyone even bother?

 

[Vergazi]

For some players in-game trading is their main game in and of itself. Growing and developing their cities is secondary to getting some "action" on the trading floor, as it were. I speak from experience from a couple games where there were auction houses/traders. Also, I was somewhat addicted to auction house for awhaile so I know something about the phenomenon. Players who desire to play the trading game are just gonna happen and not much anyone can do about it...except complain.

 

[Deleted User - 1599294]

Why the hell would anyone even bother?

This same topic is under discussion under the heading "Imbalance of S goods in Sinya Arda". In that situation, the "trader" in question is a Mage in one of the top 3 FS with a lot of fellows in chp 15 or heading that way. Perhaps they are hoarding for the fellowship's good but I have also noted one of her own players have a trade sit offering decent bonus for goods that does not appear to be taken.

 

[KarlD]

This same topic is under discussion under the heading "Imbalance of S goods in Sinya Arda". In that situation, the "trader" in question is a Mage in one of the top 3 FS with a lot of fellows in chp 15 or heading that way. Perhaps they are hoarding for the fellowship's good but I have also noted one of her own players have a trade sit offering decent bonus for goods that does not appear to be taken.

What is quite laughable is that the FS description contains "Fair trading ... is our main aim." They are falling far short of hitting their mark on that one.
That they have a player waiting for Shrooms is not surprising since the demand on Shrooms is so high that I wouldn't expect one player to be able to supply all their needs, but they are probably covering a fair amount of their needs. The player is ginormous, has finished chapter 15, has more space than they know what to do with, and probably is doing the trading both to help the FS and just to have something to do.

 

[ajqtrz]

I've always suggested the game just let the markets go as they will with no star ratings at all and no limits on the trades. Market forces, especially in sentient goods, will correct any problems, and the more acute the problems the shorter the time it will take for the market adjustment. Here's how it actually works in a completely free system. Every resource has a supply (what's available or will be available at a certain time), and a demand (what's needed or will be needed at a certain time). If a player attempts to amass a large amount of a resource the supply shrinks because that player stores the amount purchased in anticipation of selling it for more than he or she purchased it. This drives up the price. When this happens suppliers of that resource may also stop supplying as they perceive the selling price going up, in anticipation of even greater profits. And others will begin production for the same reason. All of which is to say that people are motivated by profit.

At some point though, the scarcity of the product becomes so acute somebody -- usually everybody at once -- begins to sell and the market is flooded making prices plunge. This is a "market correction." What causes that to occur is a complex question and when the prices will start to "tumble" is related to "market timing."

Market timing is the system of anticipating when the market will reach it's "high" point (or low in some systems), and selling before everybody else. It's like a game of chicken with a lot of participants. (It's also a really, really risky investment strategy, btw.) In an completely free system market forces will, eventually, correct any imbalances. However, in the mean time, people can be hurt by such volatility. The star rating system is, I believe, the throttle of the trading system in Elvenar, but, as I've said, I thinks it's not needed and too artificial....but that's must my view.

Finally, you might note that as worlds progress they go through stages. Imagine you are one of the first player to produce sentient goods on your world. Suppose you are smart and have a lot of resources to "throw" at sentient goods. It is, at the very beginning, possible to "corner" the sentient goods market, but the duration of such a "cornering" would be relatively short as others begin production. In other words, in the face of a constantly growing supply it would be nearly impossible for any player, or even group of players, to sustain such a thing for long. Especially since you can ignore the markets completely and build the necessary supply chain for yourself via your own mfrs and those in your fellowship.

Just my comments.

AJ

 

[Ashrem]

I've always suggested the game just let the markets go as they will with no star ratings at all and no limits on the trades. Market forces, especially in sentient goods, will correct any problems, and the more acute the problems the shorter the time it will take for the market adjustment.

The problem is, no-one in a normal market would ever end up completing a trade just because their mouse stuttered or the screen jumped in an unexpected direction after they clicked but before the interface captured the click. There are few things more in annoying in Elvenar than buying someones 16:1 offer because the screen went down instead of up after you clicked the one below it. That being the case, terrible offers need to be isolated in some way from not-terrible offers to reduce rage-quitting.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

The problem is, no-one in a normal market would ever end up completing a trade just because their mouse stuttered or the screen jumped in an unexpected direction after they clicked but before the interface captured the click. There are few things more in annoying in Elvenar than buying someones 16:1 offer because the screen went down instead of up after you clicked the one below it. That being the case, terrible offers need to be isolated in some way from not-terrible offers to reduce rage-quitting.

This right here is one reason why I hate the Trader on mobile. It and the browser version scroll in the OPPOSITE direction when you take a trade. This can cost you a bad click very easily if you are not ready for it when switching from one platform to the other. @Xelenia the devs really need to correct this and make both work the same way when a trade is accepted.

 

[DeletedUser2959]

The problem is, no-one in a normal market would ever end up completing a trade just because their mouse stuttered or the screen jumped in an unexpected direction after they clicked but before the interface captured the click. There are few things more in annoying in Elvenar than buying someones 16:1 offer because the screen went down instead of up after you clicked the one below it. That being the case, terrible offers need to be isolated in some way from not-terrible offers to reduce rage-quitting.

Lord, I've done this so many times. Especially when buying 50 auctions of 1k each.

 

[mucksterme]

This same topic is under discussion under the heading "Imbalance of S goods in Sinya Arda". In that situation, the "trader" in question is a Mage in one of the top 3 FS with a lot of fellows in chp 15 or heading that way. Perhaps they are hoarding for the fellowship's good but I have also noted one of her own players have a trade sit offering decent bonus for goods that does not appear to be taken.

i wonder if part of the problem here is that people in lower chapters have no idea just how many sentinent goods chapter 15 burns through

 

[Deleted User - 1599294]

i wonder if part of the problem here is that people in lower chapters have no idea just how many sentinent goods chapter 15 burns through

But it is not an impossible chapter. Yes, it has taken me 5 months, a 3rd T6 Factory and lots of MM spells but I am on the last tech research before Ancient Wonders. Given Sentient goods are traded across the map, there is no justification for the behavior noted in both threads. Edited to add. . . and lots of PP spells

 

[Yogi Dave]

In the world I live in, US2, when a large number of people were rushing through ch 15 (one of the guilty), there was a great lack of Bismuth. At times there were over 100 pages of trades looking for the stuff. Most of those trades were 1 to 1 and just sat there for days. I realized I could either put up that type trade or do better. Many people were putting up barely better the 1 to 1 so they would show up as 3 star and thus, toward the top the many pages. Trades like 10100 for 10000 or less. I placed trades giving the buyer a 10% bonus, usually 11000 for 10000. These trades were usually snapped up within an hour. Maybe those who produced bis were short on the shrooms I produced. Maybe they were in the same section of the tech tree and need it for themselves. Maybe they were waiting for good trades just because they could make a profit. The point is, the trades I placed propelled me through the chapter faster then most. While many people quit or reduce making S goods when their needs have been met, I continue to place 10% bonus trades to balance my goods and get goods to aid my FS members. My 4% decay rate lets me hold on to them for a long time and broker deals of 2 to 1 or 4 to 1 within the FS.

Now, the bottleneck is soap, but not as intense as bis was In fact, at this moment of the 33 pages of S goods, 12 are looking for soap and 20 are selling bis. Another bonus of still making S goods is they decay into more T goods than it costed to make. All it cost is seeds which are just decaying into nothing. I even try to balance my S goods do the decay will produce the T goods I'm lowest in.

It doesn't matter if there are greedy people playing. What matters is how you react to them. My suggestion is be generous when you can and hoard when you need that 200K for one tech and you have to fight that decay rate. Work within your FS and the system to get what you need without it decaying too rapidly. It's created a wonderful atmosphere in my FS allowing many to share goods fluidly for the benefit of all. Of course the best way to play the game is the one that brings enjoyment to you, or what's the point?

 

[shimmerfly]

It doesn't matter if there are greedy people playing. What matters is how you react to them. My suggestion is be generous when you can and hoard when you need that 200K for one tech and you have to fight that decay rate. Work within your FS and the system to get what you need without it decaying too rapidly. It's created a wonderful atmosphere in my FS allowing many to share goods fluidly for the benefit of all. Of course the best way to play the game is the one that brings enjoyment to you, or what's the point?

Exactly!