Gripe and Bemoan the Horrors of (BAD) Cross-tier (ALWAYS)

[Vergazi]

@Crowella yes, one may only buy kp with one's boosted goods. As you mentioned, people could trade for their boosts and use them to buy kp rather than dumping them like swill into the Trader in the form of the myriad cross-tier abortions from hell that greet our eyes every time we open the Trader. (yes, we all know some cross-tier is inevitable for various reasons...no point in going over all that again.) This would reduce the amount of tier3 goods floating around because most of it must come from high chapter cities. Low chapter cities either do not have Taverns or similar buildings or in the cases where they do, the buildings only produce a fraction of what high chapter goods producing buildings do.

The real question you were getting at I think is "To what degree would using boosted goods to buy kp lower the oversupply of tier3 in the trader?" I believe you said this in so many words...so on that I agree completely with you. It is a question open to debate, since we do not have the data that Inno has. It also reminds me of something @SoggyShorts said about how we all have an incomplete picture of the trade situation since we only see up to 200 players in our traders, since trade isn't global ( I paraphrase ). We cannot answer this question, but we can speak to other players to develop some sense of a greater picture of what is going on through communicating shared experiences.

( gets off soapbox and smashes it to flinders and set's the pile ablaze ), Anyone for s'mores?

 

[Ashrem]

I think @Vergazi is at least on the right track. They need to develop/create some more things that we (the players) would want to use T3 goods for so that those with excess of it would deplete there supply somewhat so they would be less tempted to use them to trade for tier 1 and 2. I doubt just one thing is going to be enough, but if there where enough things then maybe.

Anything that simply increases use of T3 goods unfairly favours those of us that have the buildings which generate a lot. There has to be another cost associated with those productions. At the moment, the only cost is a little space in your city.

That's why I suggested a consumption component be added to the event buildings with excessive good producing capabilities. If after you harvest, your Jester's Tavern needs to be fed some relics, or supplies before it will produce again, it puts downward pressure on the free productions, without negatively impacting people who don't have those buildings and are using supplies to produce their T3 in factories, or others who just don't collect very often. The other option would be to put them on a timer, like the wishing wells, so that their goods production expires after 100 days, leaving them as a culture item and link bonus for the other buildings.

 

[Vergazi]

Anything that simply increases use of T3 goods unfairly favours those of us that have the buildings which generate a lot. There has to be another cost associated with those productions. At the moment, the only cost is a little space in your city.

That's why I suggested a consumption component be added to the event buildings with excessive good producing capabilities. If after you harvest, your Jester's Tavern needs to be fed some relics, or supplies before it will produce again, it puts downward pressure on the free productions, without negatively impacting people who don't have those buildings and are using supplies to produce their T3 in factories, or others who just don't collect very often. The other option would be to put them on a timer, like the wishing wells, so that their goods production expires after 100 days, leaving them as a culture item and link bonus for the other buildings.

You'd feed it the corresponding relic types for each goods?

 

[Ashrem]

You'd feed it the corresponding relic types for each goods?

Maybe? I haven't given consideration to the specifics of the mechanic. I feel strongly that there needs to be additional cost associate with the currently free production to balance it.

 

[DeletedUser20951]

I may have mentioned this before (I think about it a lot, anyway, so it feels like I might have at some point), but, while I don't know the acceptance rate of cross-tier trades, when it is very low, why is there such resistance by players to changing how they go about producing and trading goods? I mean, part of it is no doubt due to humanity's overall resistance to change, but isn't there a phrase about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? Something about insanity? Regardless, I believe if you desire a certain effect, you should adapt to make it happen, instead of waiting on others to adapt to you.

Tonight's supercilious reflection is brought to you by, The Cat's- OH GODS, I AM NIGH UNTO EXHAUSTION COLLAPSE- Paw! When you got that itch that you NEED to scratch... Head to the Cat's Paw!

 

[Ashrem]

Once you place a trade, unless you actively check on it (by opening the "your offers" tab, you never get shown it again. Ther's no notification that your trade wasn't accepted, the items just return to your inventory eventually. People have varying degrees of awareness of their inventory levels, and may have no clue the trades weren't taken.

 

[mucksterme]

Anything that simply increases use of T3 goods unfairly favours those of us that have the buildings which generate a lot. There has to be another cost associated with those productions. At the moment, the only cost is a little space in your city.

That's why I suggested a consumption component be added to the event buildings with excessive good producing capabilities. If after you harvest, your Jester's Tavern needs to be fed some relics, or supplies before it will produce again, it puts downward pressure on the free productions, without negatively impacting people who don't have those buildings and are using supplies to produce their T3 in factories, or others who just don't collect very often. The other option would be to put them on a timer, like the wishing wells, so that their goods production expires after 100 days, leaving them as a culture item and link bonus for the other buildings.

feed them pet food?

 

[Ashrem]

feed them pet food?

I originally suggested something like pet food, but pet food itself doesn't really have any sort of logical connection to a tavern. Needing to deliver crates of supplies, like bread and groceries (say the equivalent of one-day's output of one fully levelled workshop for the level of the tavern) would not be an unreasonable expectation for a tavern.

 

[DeletedUser20951]

People have varying degrees of awareness of their inventory levels, and may have no clue the trades weren't taken.

The quote, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", came to mind, too, but my problem tends to be with those I have argued with that seem quite offended at the thought that they might have to produce more first and second tier goods, themselves, to correct their deficit, and just want their cross-tier trades to be taken without any extra effort on their part. Ignorance does appear to factor into this mindset, though, so fair point, as I have witnessed players quietly reassess their stance after a while.

Now for another bit of my own personal insane proclivities, which is screaming into the void that is Inno's feedback loop and expecting change.

A simple filter for cross-tier trades, Inno! THAT IS ALL I DEMAND OF YE. (in this specific thread, that is)

 

[DeletedUser20951]

And it would be pettily perfect if they added a filter to only show cross-tier trades. I'd be too tickled at that to be properly offended.

A simple filter to filter out cross-tier trades, Inno!

 

[DeletedUser23187]

This is an interesting discussion for a new player.
I had zero idea that the ratios shown in the merchant were considered unfair. If you can't trust the merchant, what can you trust?
I am sort of shocked to learn that 3 star trades can be considered unfair to the point of being a rip off when the trader says they are good.

I have a couple of cities and I notice that the economies of different servers are really different.

One city is in a fellowship that takes pretty much any 2 star trade I put up, which is a great help. Apparently they have been much more generous than I knew. Also the FS has supported me with some lopsided trades meant to give me a boost.

With the support of the FS that city has grown quickly.
Also, the neighborhood is good. There are quite a few neighbors who put up and take trades that the merchant classifies as 2 stars or 3 stars.

Half the trades are 1 star, which must be really bad. Often that is caused by the neighbor not being discovered, not by inherent unfairness of what they posted. That is a big tax on a new player, especially in the very beginning. It makes it hard for beginners to trade with each other, at a time when 150 wood is a lot and all of the posted trades are for vastly more material than you have.

On another server I am playing without a FS because I don't want to put my full attention on that city.

The economy on that server is a wreck with a few players posting stacks of trades of 25 gems for 25 wood., or 25 elixir for 25 silk, etc. Maybe they are trying to help someone, but it means gems are worthless, so if you take that trade you gain nothing. I put up 2 star trades for same tier goods and the sit forever.

Right now KP are going out the window because I am bottle necked by not being able to activate a technology for lack of 700 scrolls. Silk is my boosted T1 and I thought I could trade silk for scrolls, 1 to 1. Not really, as it turns out. Eventually I got enough space to make some scrolls manufacturing and I will make the 700 scrolls I need. The 1 to 1 silk to scroll trades are still up, but I am not hopeful. Eventually I will have a wonder and so something to do with KP when bottle necked for lack of activation.

I suspect the almost 100% of new players have no idea that the merchant ratings are faulty on cross tier trades.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Right now KP are going out the window because I am bottle necked by not being able to activate a technology for lack of 700 scrolls. Silk is my boosted T1 and I thought I could trade silk for scrolls, 1 to 1. Not really, as it turns out. Eventually I got enough space to make some scrolls manufacturing and I will make the 700 scrolls I need. The 1 to 1 silk to scroll trades are still up, but I am not hopeful. Eventually I will have a wonder and so something to do with KP when bottle necked for lack of activation.

In your situation you should really go into the Wholesaler tab of the Trader and burn some coins or supplies and buy those Scrolls. It is very expensive in early chapters, but it is worth it to not be wasting KP.

 

[DeletedUser20951]

I had zero idea that the ratios shown in the merchant were considered unfair. If you can't trust the merchant, what can you trust?

I DON'T KNOW. And much of the learning comes down to neighborhoods and fellowships. If you are in a good one of either, unfair trades don't factor in a whole lot, as you will end up with an abundance of any good you require. Nearly everybody wants new players to stay and enrich the game, and most of my criticism is aimed at veteran players, but the mechanics of trading are horribly out of skew.

 

[Vergazi]

@toon If you have wonders activated then you could also put kps into other people's wonders and when they are completed you could get back some kp instants or runes that you could save and use later for your own wonders when you get them up. You can put kps in any players wonders no matter where they are on the map or even if you haven't discovered them or never will.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

I have a couple of cities and I notice that the economies of different servers are really different.

What you're noticing is less of a difference between the servers, but more of a difference of playing in a good FS vs without. That, and a little bit a function of your neighborhood, but you can never really count on that.

Even in a decent neighborhoods trading might be significantly slower without a good FS.

 

[DeletedUser20255]

I suspect the almost 100% of new players have no idea that the merchant ratings are faulty on cross tier trades.

I suspect you are right. I've been playing for a year and I got the word on this about 6 months ago. I'm now AM and doing my best to spread the word about the unfair star-ratings. It's interesting just about everyone who answers, I truly believe, didn't know. Those who remain silent are suspect. As far as FS members being generous, this is common with new members. Think of it as paying forward. I was helped out with 4:1 trades and now I accept any trades put up by players with less than 20K points. It builds the FS.

Another angle on the T3 glut. I've seen FS's that ban CT trades and ban building of non-boosted goods. So what are we supposed to do when we have a glut of our boosted T3 goods. I prefer my approach. No rules...post whatever you want..let the buyer beware and try to educate as much as possible.

 

[NightshadeCS]

On another server I am playing without a FS because I don't want to put my full attention on that city.

I would suggest trying to find a FS that is around for the express purpose of helping casual players out. There are some of those, where people group together for mutual benefit but there are little-to-no rules.

Silk is my boosted T1 and I thought I could trade silk for scrolls, 1 to 1. Not really, as it turns out. Eventually I got enough space to make some scrolls manufacturing and I will make the 700 scrolls I need. The 1 to 1 silk to scroll trades are still up, but I am not hopeful.

I am very surprised by this. You may have to get those trades up to 3 star, and you can do that by knocking off as little as 5 or so of what you are asking for. It is very little cost to you, but moves your trades up on people's lists to one of the first pages. Remember, some veteran players have 20+ pages of Sentient Good trades to wade through before they may see your small trades. Get them to 3 star and I think they will be taken fast.

This brings me to my #1 advice for new players/smaller cities. Place those trades! Do not worry about picking up trades from others, they will too often be in amounts that you cannot afford. Keep trades up to balance your goods as often as possible. Look ahead in your tech tree and determine what goods you will be in need of next. If you play in the tournaments, think about NEXT week's tournament during the current one. You can place trades for a good that people need now for what you may need next week.

And, don't be afraid to ask, or to thank! There is a newer player in my area who has messaged me to thank me for taking her trades. You better believe that I am looking out for hers now! And if you see an active player in your neighborhood who is in the later chapters, feel free to approach them with a need. As I said before, they may be mostly unaware of your trades. If someone helps you out to a great extent, and you want to show extra appreciation, see if they would welcome a few KP in a Wonder. The sense of community in this game is one of the major draws for me.

 

[Ashrem]

Another angle on the T3 glut. I've seen FS's that ban CT trades and ban building of non-boosted goods. So what are we supposed to do when we have a glut of our boosted T3 goods.

If you haven't done it yet, 100,000 of your T3 will get you 140 KP....

 

[NightshadeCS]

I've seen FS's that ban CT trades and ban building of non-boosted goods. So what are we supposed to do when we have a glut of our boosted T3 goods.

Or delete a T3 manufactory and cast MM on your T1, T2 until all is nicely balanced again.

 

[DeletedUser20951]

Great advice, people! I'm way on the other side of the spectrum, in all of this, where I kept my third tier production low by factory count and not even considering placing the event buildings that provide many. I am still catching up to my other goods' stashes there, because I will totally cut off my nose to spite my face if I feel something is harmful to the whole picture. I know everybody's different, thinks differently, but... has looking ahead and recognizing patterns died? Is that no longer a thing now?