Have Made Game Too Tedious and Difficult

[DeletedUser1055]

Aye, human interaction is volatile.

It might be due to the holiday season, but nearly every one of my fellows is being friendly and supportive, posting great trades and giving aid. *does happy spastic dance* Oh, it's a nice, warm, fuzzy feeling!

I belong to two fellowships, I find that to be very true in one of them, even a lot more conversations in chat and circular messages going around letting everyone know when they will be gone for the Holidays, just a general Goodwill. Not unusual for the fellowship, but even more so right now. It's wonderful.

There is not a single suggestion in the first post of this thread. There is a poll that the devs probably found insulting, a lot of complaints, and some sarcasm. Later replies have not added much other than the idea that some players want self-sufficiency, but without any specifics, or ideas as to how it could be achieved while still preserving some semblance of game balance in the trade goods. There is also the notion that fighting is too hard, but that's a criticism, not an idea or suggestion.

I started a thread with a very specific suggestion about the trader a while back that would vastly improve solo play. It's probably buried at this point.

I don't know why the creators would find the poll insulting. It's feedback for them. As an Archmage, I never find suggestions from members of the fellowship insulting. I find them helpful and adopt many of them. I guess if one were very insecure and thin skinned, that's possible. I've found this entire thread to be very enlightening. Not a close minded person. I just think we all have our methods and there is no one way to play the game. Guess I don't follow your logic on this one. If I were thin skinned, I might even find it insulting. Just kidding, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, whichever you prefer.

Aye, human interaction is volatile.

It might be due to the holiday season, but nearly every one of my fellows is being friendly and supportive, posting great trades and giving aid. *does happy spastic dance* Oh, it's a nice, warm, fuzzy feeling!

I like your signature Talisman and find it very relevent to how the game can be played.

 

[DeletedUser]

I like your signature Talisman and find it very relevent to how the game can be played.

Thank you, Roriane. I remember reading it for the first time years ago and having my mind blown, as I grew up in a very controlling household. While I fail on occasion (who doesn't?), I strive to not make others feel stifled, and that quote reminds me to value opinions from all sides better than almost anything.

 

[DeletedUser406]

I am an AM in both F & K & a Mage in A. I am having serious difficulty with some of my players that have finally gotten disgusted & left or want to, I have a very loyal group that is in both F & K & talk very openly about the game, they have become so disheartened because of so many things but one main thing is the way you guys have changed the Quests, they have become ridiculous, some are totally useless & causing many to be stalled for weeks or just not be able to do it because it causes them to go BACKWARDS because they CAN'T pass it, you seriously need to re-evaluate all of your quests, they are NOT CONDUCIVE to a game that MOVES but actually stalls.....& angers my FS to the point of me loosing like 6 players in the last few weeks, one that was extremely methodical about the game & was attacking it like a project, rising fast then the change & all hell broke loose & it all fell out...... your developers need to go back to the drawing boards & make quests that MAKE SENSE please. I love my FS & my people & I hate that they no longer have the huger & Love for the game like they used to because of this & the need for them to put so much money into it also.

 

[DeletedUser61]

one main thing is the way you guys have changed the Quests, they have become ridiculous, some are totally useless & causing many to be stalled for weeks

This is akin to sprinting for the first few miles of a marathon, and then complaining that the HILLS are horrible and much too steep for tired players who would RATHER run laps around the lake.

I really can't find much sympathy for folks who design high-maintenance cities, and then want to ignore the reality that the game is far more complex and interesting if you're trying to build a well-balanced city that thrives on its own, WITHOUT the constant addition of outside resources.

To be fair, tying the global rank to COSTS rather than PROGRESS is very misleading, and InnoGames didn't think though the initial design of the declinable quests, but it's not really very hard to understand that you're probably pushing the envelope MUCH too hard when the cost of SCOUTING is capped by the storage level of your Main Hall, and when the ONLY way too climb any higher is to Dollar them to Death because fighting has become impossible.

 

[DeletedUser1122]

(To be fair, tying the global rank to COSTS rather than PROGRESS is very misleading, and} InnoGames didn't think though the initial design of the declinable quests, but it's not really very hard to understand that you're probably pushing the envelope <that it's> MUCH too hard when the cost of SCOUTING is capped by the storage level of your Main Hall, and when the ONLY way too climb any higher is to Dollar them to Death because fighting has become impossible.

Sometimes we all most agree.

 

[DeletedUser594]

I just think we all have our methods and there is no one way to play the game

Same with poker you can be a rock(conservative), you can be aggressive, you can slow roll a play, you can reel some folks in or push some folks out of a pot, you can play tightly and carefully or be reckless and every one of those styles can be used to gain advantage at one time or another in the right circumstances or be a total hinderance if played in the wrong conditions.
I'm a rock. I don't like betting into a pot without a decent hand, but once in a rare while I will bluff when I should fold. I've been called on bluffs and lost my share of: hands, games, tournaments.
I would propose that poker be more accepting of peoples strategies and make bluffs not count against you. Then I can bluff as often as I want for as much as I see fit and never lose any money. Would that still be poker? Would it even be a game anymore?

Elvenar is a game. As with all games you first learn the rules and structure and THEN create a strategy instead of creating a strategy, and then asking for rule changes that reward your choices. It's designed with structure that allows you to DO whatever you please, but it REWARDS making decisions appropriate to changing circumstances,. You may find a certain strategy works at one point but doesn't suit advancement at other points. It's a game, with built in constraints. Different strategies lead to different outcomes, as with any game. So should we try and find a workable strategy within the constraints as they exist, as many, many, successful players have, or should we change the basic structure of the game to give every possible way of building the same points and rewards.

Underneath the pretty buildings- which are fun to make I do agree- there is a rich, complex and well thought out structure to this game which is accessible to anyone who looks. Why is marble hard to get when steel is everywhere? Why is crystal low if I have an even number of producers? How does a group best divide the labor so as to succeed together? Does a human factory produce more or less than an elven and if so why? If so could I say humans are more or less productive?

Thats a small handful of questions just on the production aspect of the game and that doesn't begin to cover that one part of play. Now add in military considerations, planning/building, managing costs, balancing your cities culture and you've begun to cover what might be called your 1st and 2nd order challenges and now start factoring in 3rd order challenges of working cooperatively with total strangers to create a functional economic and social super unit (fellowship) comprised of individual, interdependant,city-state sub units.

All of this ties directly back to and hinges upon how many goods you get from an unboosted building. Pull that one thread out and this elegant structure unravels. If you look at it closely I believe you would come to the same conclusion.
I like the structure and I like the game and it's unique challenges. I don't want an open access city simulator instead of a game that has challenges that rewards well thought out solutions. That would be a bore.

 

[DeletedUser626]

? Are the creators of Elvenar making you lose interest in the game?

No, though I do admit I don't bother with the click fest through the quests system. instead I've designed my city so I don't need the quests, and conversely ignore them. (ok, not all quests.. i also admit I did build a handful of level 1 workshops to make adv. tools for the quest when I need some supplies, the dev's saw that one coming.)

 

[DeletedUser]

I have had so many of my fellowship lose heart over the resource cost in game!
I am a mage in one of the top clans in one realm, mage in another, and Archmage in two other realms and I have lost people and had to boot people for lack of interest in game !
No matter how hard you produce there never seems to be enough ! We all trade but as soon as you trade what your boosts for what you need, the next research block requires twice as much of your boosted goods that you just traded ! It is crazy ! I mean I know the game pushes for diamond sales, but not everyone can afford to purchase them and that makes people leave game. I personally have stopped buying them because the cost of diamonds to even out goods you don't have is through the roof ! 1475 diamonds to unlock a block if you do not have enough resources.....really?
I belong to several gaming groups on FB and they have all played Elvenar and dropped it like a bad habit because of the cost of research blocks and the fact that they say "play Elvenar for free" and then find out it is almost impossible to do so. So it is very misleading their statement of the game being free.
Again they need to back off the cost of research blocks, I mean seriously 2667 silk, 3776 crystals, 1800 in elixirs, 150,000, in coins, and 2600+ in goods ........... seriously? that's insane ! lol
I really hate to see a game get greedy, a game I played for 4 1/2 years that got greedy and they almost folded till they started giving reals on quests and battles (the equivalent to diamonds in Elvenar) and lowered costs to unlock quests and build armour. They were VERY close to folding ! Maybe Elvenar will have to get close as well before they listen to their players !
I truly love this game, and love the people in it and have become very close with a number of them, I have lost several due to the games hunger for money and it is a pity. This is such a beautiful game and can be serious fun if the players were given respect ie., listen to them, fix the issues, and not require so many costs.
Please listen to your player Elvenar before it is too late !

 

[DeletedUser594]

The costs are not exorbitant if you produce in a way that works with how the game is structured. Again- it's the same concept- there are ways that work well and ways that don't. As an archmage I work hard to balance member boosts as much as possible. I encourage producing boosted goods exclusively and trading for non-boosted goods. When enough get onboard with that system trade hits a tipping point, goods become abundant and easy to trade. Large block trades of goods move easily.
How has that panned out for me and my fellowships? From absolute scratch with entirely noob crews and a fellowship ranked somewhere in the clouds to our current position of #13 on Arendyll (drifting right now between 13-15) , #26 on Winyandor ( we were #18but had 3 consecutive 20K players retire/quit when real life matters took precedence )

How about goods? Do I have enough? Early on in A-world we hit a marble shortage that skidded growth to a halt. It took 2-3 weeks of active focused recruiting along with a vigorous push to get members to produce boosted only and trust the system before that logjam started to move. That was when I doubled my efforts to understand the ins and outs of production and trade flow in the fellowship.
I do not spend diamonds on goods- never will. I do buy and spend diamonds on additional builders or a culture building I enjoy. I don't see the developers as greedy but I could imagine if one was dropping diamonds to pay for goods they might believe so. I would venture to say that if you are spending diamonds on goods then there is a problem with production at the individual and fellowship levels and not with the unlock costs.

1475 diamonds to unlock a block if you do not have enough resources.....really?

Using diamonds for goods means you need to address your production and your fellowships production and boost balance -plain and simple. No one need spend a dime on goods.
I'm including this pic of my goods from 2 established an one new city. I am doing this bcs when I hear some players talk numbers I'm a bit flummoxed by what non-boosted producers feel are high and low values and what trips them up.
I hope this isn't tacky- it feels almost like discussing money in real life. But this is a game and my intention is to illustrate what I am talking about with real time numbers showing my goods derived from boosted production and trade.


In every one of these cities I never once produced a non boosted-good. The non-boosted stockpile is simply from trade. I do not have the largest stockpile of goods in my fellowship but would guess I'm in the top 5 maybe.
My boosted goods have a red box above them. I have 4 steel manufactories, 2-3 scroll, 2 dust. I will be cutting back steel to 3 manufactories in most likelihood. In my cities that have gone dwarven there is a temporary drop in some goods as i upgraded 4 steel at a cost of roughly 70k plank and 80K marble in to date. In my fellowship i would post a trade for 7-9K of the good needed and it would close that day. I upgraded them in maybe 10 days as there was no rush and stopped simply because I have too much steel now and feel I may rebalance. Thats what production focused on boosted goods in a somewhat balanced fellowship can provide without difficulty. Sometimes we wait a day or two for a good but mostly we don't. My city on KHEL has not yet unlocked the tech for the crystal upgrade in the begining of chapter 3.

I mean seriously 2667 silk, 3776 crystals, 1800 in elixirs, 150,000, in coins, and 2600+ in goods ........... seriously? that's insane !

I'm sorry but I diagree. I think it's a little stinging depending on stage of development but not something that would stall my forward movement. I haven't been stuck and unable to open a tech since addressing production fellowship wide.

Try boosted only production as an experiment. Get someone with each of the different boosts to do it with you. It would be a minimum of 3 players to cover all 9 boosts. Make an agreement- each produces boosted only, each prioritizes the others trades (just for the experiment as you wouldn't need such an agreement if enough participated) and try it for one month. Then see -which way creates more growth, more goods, more coins etc.

If you really want to get down try adding theseguidelines which will ensure a better outcome-
-you must have each boost represented
-you must all produce boosted exclusively
-you must prioritize the trades of the others in the group (with exceptions of course)
-if manufactories are the same or close to same level you must match (as closely as possible) space used. for instance if your boosted manufactory was 3x4 building taking up 12 squares
and mine was a (3x2)=6 hexes , i would build 2 manufactories to your 1 so we both use 12squares of space

 

[DeletedUser]

Man... You're just boasting right now. Should I clap? Good for you? *start humming "Perfect World"*

I haven't been stuck and unable to open a tech since addressing production fellowship wide.

Again, "In a perfect world, this could never happen. In a perfect world, you'd still be here." I get that people should be awarded for putting in the effort, but penalizing for existing? C'mon man.

 

[DeletedUser]

I like the structure and I like the game and it's unique challenges. I don't want an open access city simulator instead of a game that has challenges that rewards well thought out solutions. That would be a bore.

You're winning... I know, you EARNED it. What's not to like? What if a player doesn't have the same analytical mind-frame? What if we are playing a game? Yes, poker is nice, but does not completely apply here.

 

[DeletedUser61]

What if a player doesn't have the same analytical mind-frame?

Then they're not going to do as well in a City Builder game.

By contrast, my reflexes are no longer competitive in twitch games, and the grandkids can beat me every time.

 

[DeletedUser594]

Then pick a game. Any game that has any sort of goal and any sort of rules and gives some sort of rewards like points, goods, more play time, bigger better stuff anything based on how you play. If you play the game and you want something in the game then you need a path to your goal. You can use an analytical approach like you mentioned and try to figure out a workable path to your goal. If you're less analytical maybe you pick a path through trial and error. Maybe someone doesn't like either approach and prefers to aska lot of people and take what advice resonates with them. You take steps to reach your goal and if what you're doing isn't getting you closer you try something else.
If you encounter an obstacle you can apply all the above approaches and more to find a way forward.

But in this game quite a few players keep encountering this problem where they want something, advancement, an upgrade, unlock a tech whatever. They need to acquire some rewards to get to that goal for instance some goods or coin or KP. They go about trying to get those goods however they approach the problem. They find their way isn't working well enough to get them where they desire so they try something else.
No I'm totally kidding about that last part. They keep engaging in the same strategy that isn't working over and over and over and keep insisting that the game should be restructured to fit the strategy they chose because it's impossible to play the game for them but they WON'T TRY PLAYING DIFFERENTLY. And NO the game cannot be changed to make all strategies equal without changing the fundamental nature of the game.

Seriously you think I'm bragging? That was veryhard for me to post. It made me uncomfortable and left me feeling vulnerable and awkward. But
I've been watching this same process over and over ad infinitum since starting. I have been watching people walk into the same wall. After a few times I mention that there's a door. They keep walking into the wall insisting the wall should be moved because it is simply impossible to get to the other side. So I point out the door and they keep walking into the wall and doing everything they can to get that wall out of the way but it's a support wall and it's not going anywhere, and there is a way to the other side, and I don't care if you choose to do what I do in any way shape or form, but lets get it clear that the game isn't broken. The game isn't impossible. The devs don't set a trap that can only be sprung with diamonds. The path we choose in this game has everything to do with where we end up, and what options become available, and which goals/rewards we get closer to or further away from.
I'm not bragging and frankly I don't find my numbers impressive what I see in them is that I need to rethink my city structure because I'm bloated with steel.
But there are a lot of players.., a LOT of players who walk into that wall- and even if you tell them there is another way- I genuinely think many don't really know what kind of difference we're talking about when I say "hey if you're struggling with needing goods producing only your boosted items and trading will get you more". Now they can look and see if it does or not. I didn't know there was a big gap until talking to a fellowship mate and I mentioned how a trade took me below 30K on a good which was bad because I was setting something up to get goods for our group..,blah blah...but he told me later he had never had more than 3k goods. Same size cities, close in points side by side in ranking and it was an eye opener for us both.
So maybe throwing those numbers up there helps someone else, maybe not, but bragging about imaginary goods is not my style.
http://i67.tinypic.com/1z1ycnt.jpg

 

[Deleted User - 312108]

Okay, I've been playing since about November, and I hadn't really played a city builder type game before beyond Civilization which is very different from this, but I did quickly figure out that space and energy wise that it was more efficient to focus on boosted goods. When I started tracking what boosted goods were in our fellowship, I started realizing I needed to recruit for specific boosts because some we lacked more than others, especially when some of our fellows were in empty neighborhoods. I'm lucky on Arendyll because I have several high level players around me, others of my fellows are not so lucky.

And yes, even with an active trading partnership, there are times when I go into resource collection mode and do not build or open up anything because I am working on my stockpile of goods or ensuring my fellows have what they need.

If you want to be constantly building you may wind up paying diamonds, that is a personal decision. I have yet to purchase diamonds those some of my fellows have. Will I? Maybe if they offer me a nice sale, yes. What will I spend diamonds on? Probably builders. But do you need them? Well, I've only gotten to the 3d and 4th chapters so... maybe later, but I really don't know. So far, I haven't.

If you are the archmage of the fellowship, determine what your goals are. Missanthropy posted something interesting that is a good guideline for this: https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/arendyll-seek-and-ye-shall-find-a-template.1375/
recruit as appropritae.

If you aren't the archmage, evaluate if the current fellowship works for you, if not talk to the fellows to see if it can change or find a new fellowship more in line with your play style.

I and my mages in the fellowship tend to have a nice store of goods. We're in Chapter 3/4 and have a stash of basic goods that tends to be around 10k, 5k for crafted and we're working on magical. One of the ways we do that is posting 3 star trades. We halve the trading fee so that while for fellowship and neighbors the trade is 3 star it is also reasonable for folks who haven't discovered us as each pays half the trading fee.

So, my point is, there are many ways to go about playing. Just find what suits you best and if you don't enjoy the game there are many others out there.

Happy New Year.

 

[DeletedUser]

Allow me to add a titbit to the conversation if I may... something not known by many

When you produce goods in a boosted manufactory, you only pay for the BASE goods. The bonus is FREE! It does not cost coins or supplies.

There is a good explanation here(click) that is small enough to mail ingame so that it can be shared with FS members.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

Again, "In a perfect world, this could never happen. In a perfect world, you'd still be here." I get that people should be awarded for putting in the effort, but penalizing for existing? C'mon man.

Do you think a residence-only city should work? One with nothing but cultural buildings? You seem to be suggesting that by merely logging in and clicking on some stuff, you should automatically progress at a fixed pace no matter what you build.

What if a player doesn't have the same analytical mind-frame? What if we are playing a game?

Chess and Bridge, which I hope you would recognize as games, have far more thinking and analysis than Elvenar. I find that Elvenar has barely enough to be interesting.

If you're stuck in a game you find too analytical, it's fairly easy to get help. A lot of players here have offered suggestions about how to overcome shortages of goods, which seems to be your core complaint. If you still want to build freely without regard to the in-game economy, you might be happier loading up Minecraft or some other building/sandbox game that doesn't have any constraints.

 

[DeletedUser594]

I and my mages in the fellowship tend to have a nice store of goods. We're in Chapter 3/4 and have a stash of basic goods that tends to be around 10k, 5k for crafted and we're working on magical. One of the ways we do that is posting 3 star trades. We halve the trading fee so that while for fellowship and neighbors the trade is 3 star it is also reasonable for folks who haven't discovered us as each pays half the trading fee.
Happy New Year.

This is what I did as well when at the same point with my fellowships. You can also have members on the lookout for a neighbor dumping a lot of needed goods and make bulk trades through them. You can move goods around "in house" with bulk trades even if your member doesn't hold a lot of goods by creating off balance trades to stock them up. Have them post an offer of goods that no one would touch like n offer of
500 planks: asking for 2000 steel. Then you close the trade and that member now has 2K steel to trade the neighbor in a fair trade. Then you post the awful deal in reverse and get the goods back. The system being placed by missanthropy looks promising for for goods movement between fellowships but you still need goods on hand to move which is why

There is a good explanation here(click) that is small enough to mail ingame so that it can be shared with FS members

remains important. This is a great explanation on costs and it touches on one of the most common misunderstandings/miscalculations I've seen when discussing boosts- people forget to add the base back in when calculating.
If I have a 200% boost when making planks its 173x 200%= 346 Thats just the bonus 346+173= 519 and thats the yield. So I get 519 at the same price, space, population, supply that an unboosted person gets 173 goods for. And that boost keeps growing and growing. My current steel boost gets me an extra 1,777 goods- free- per manufactory. That's 7110 free goods available daily. With the base added back in that's roughly 9300 goods a day on a 24 hour cycle. Game costs don't seem exorbitant when producing boosted at any stage you will generally be able to cover costs and stockpile a bit except perhaps granite which runs into the 100K costs territory.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

Game costs don't seem exorbitant when producing boosted at any stage you will generally be able to cover costs and stockpile a bit except perhaps granite which runs into the 100K costs territory.

Granite seems to be a designed bottleneck, with the ancient wonders now providing a way to use unspent KP.

 

[DeletedUser594]

Yeah its meant to slow one down. I have no problem with that. Enough techs open up simultaneously that I can spread points around while stockpiling. Then there's always donations and such if I need to siphon more off. It's nice we have the Kp sinkholes in place before we get to the end. A lot of payers were done with tech back when I started with no place to use Kp's.

 

[DeletedUser43]

My problem with the game now is that they have now made it so only the spenders can succeed. The scouting times are simply too long as you get farther out. Up until this most recent dwarven section, anyone could keep up if they simply played the game a lot. Now....not so. It takes me 3 days for one scout. I am so far behind in expansions that it will take me a YEAR to get the same space. That means that only the people who buy expansions can succeed and stay atop the leader board.

I get that you need money to keep a company alive, but if the only way to keep pace is to spend, a lot of non spenders will leave the game. Why should they stay? And if the non spenders leave, will there be enough players left?

I can't see the books so I don't know how they are doing as far as revenue goes, but the game isn't much fun for the players. The new players are bored out of their minds because the game is so slow....unless you spend a LOT of money. The old players are bored because the times to do things are so stupidly long. The forums are empty unless people are complaining. And every day, I see more of my good friends leaving.

I do agree with varron on everything except his perhaps his bluffing frequency....it sounds too low...unless he is playing limit poker....then you aren't really playing poker anyway....grin.

This is my own personal preference, but I won't spend in a game if I have to in order to succeed. I will simply leave the game. I have spent on other games if they offer things that I find are fun and pretty.....like new skins and backgrounds and things like that. But if I don't find the company trustworthy then they have no chance of getting any money from me. As I see this game now, the devs aren't trustworthy. They keep monkeying around with key features of the game so you don't know what will be important tomorrow. As far as I have seen so far, this game is still a beta game and the rules change constantly....a lot of "rebalancing" they call it. I never would pay for beta. You simply don't know what you are buying.