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Hide unfair trades coming from outside the FS

defiantoneks

Active Member
firstly I'm going to state I have not read every single comment in this thread but skimmed past a lot of the discussion…

re the "stock market" comparison: i'd compare it more to price gouging during extreme circumstances. Like when you see a 24 pack of water for sale at the store for 85 dollars because there is a hurricane and it cant be gotten. there are no substitutes, so you take it or you don't. to me that's the problem with these scalpers/trolls/parasites… they take opportunities from people who are playing the GAME and turn it into an opportunity for themselves to play the PLAYERS.

for me that's the reason a solution of some sort should be found, whether it's removing the ability to be that troll, or rebalancing the goods being produced so that no one has an abnormal surplus or inability to match up good trades. all i want is to be able to fairly play the game without being placed at a disadvantage by the coding or by people taking advantage of it to be a 'big shot" controlling trades/goods.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
First, ed1960 does have a point and some people see such posted trades as a problem. But they are only a problem from a supply/demand perspective if somebody takes the trades. If no body takes them, problem solved.

But people do take them and we have to ask the question: "if they are so bad why do people take them?" It's because, in their particular circumstances the trade supplies them with they want at a price they may be reluctant to pay, but which at the moment of the trade, they find acceptable.

Now the whole corner the market concept relies on the one trying to corner the market figuring out how to make the supply of needed goods so short that people are willing to pay a premium for the goods. Enough of a premium to make it worth the effort. To do so they lower supply by storing goods and then, as noted, the price they can sell their goods for goes up.

As the price goes up one of two things occurs. Either, in response to the high prices, the producers increase output and eventually break the cornered market as the one trying cannot absorb the increased supply fast enough to maintain the high prices, or the prices being charged become so high fewer and fewer buyers are willing to pay, in spite of their needs. They just determine to do without.

This game is no different. If I were a producer of the goods with the high prices I'd be building another mfr or two and undercutting the current price. This would force the "nefarious" player(s) to either purchase my stock on thin margins (probably too thin to make a profit) or watch the price fall. When it does, they lose, big time, exactly because pretty soon it will fall below the amount for which they paid for all those goods.

Thus, the solution to the problem is clearly doable and no change is actually necessary in the game. It's just a matter of time and will.

Thanks,

AJ
 
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ed1960

Well-Known Member
Popcorn Time
First, ed1960 does have a point and some people see such posted trades as a problem. But they are only a problem from a supply/demand perspective if somebody takes the trades.
Thank you, But are they not a problem when they have 1) taken every normal trade to suck up the goods for later resale, 2) prevent the normal flow of goods by hoarding and only offering sales at "price gouging" levels, and 3) by creating enough fear in the market the "normal" trades are not posted to avoid Feeding the parasites?
 
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BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
this thread started out as ......
Eliminate xxxxxxx from yyyyyy ....

Since some ppl hate how it is now, and some ppl would never agree to
just give up 1/2 or more ( due to 1* trades only 1* cause of trader fee )
for eliminating see'n 1* trades outside a FS ...

This is simple , add a way to "selectively" hide those offers, but not
eliminate them.... that does the least harm and the most good, to the
most # of playerbase.... Just add a FS tab, and a Locals tab and call it done !!!

( @helya , only cause over 80% voted in favor, so xxxx or yyyy both fail...
either have xxxx and yyyy or have neither , just wanted u to read this comment )
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
This is simple , add a way to "selectively" hide those offers, but not
eliminate them.... that does the least harm and the most good, to the
most # of playerbase.... Just add a FS tab, and a Locals tab and call it done !!!
So they would still be visable by everyone, just on another tab?
Unfortunately, this doesn't solve the issue. There will always be a few players who are willing to pay price gauging rates so if anyone can see them then the practice of snatching up all of the 1:1 sentient trades and reposting for profit will continue.
Might as well do nothing.
 
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ed1960

Well-Known Member
@ajqtrz

First, ed1960 does have a point and some people see such posted trades as a problem. But they are only a problem from a supply/demand perspective if somebody takes the trades. If no body takes them, problem solved.
...
Thank you, But are they not a problem when they have 1) taken every normal trade to suck up the goods for later resale, 2) prevent the normal flow of goods by hoarding and only offering sales at "price gouging" levels, and 3) by creating enough fear in the market the "normal" trades are not posted to avoid Feeding the parasites?
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
You are right that, to some, these are problems...but look carefully.
1) Why does "sucking up goods for later resale?" have to be a problem to anybody? I think you would agree that it's because it drives up the price, right?
2) We'll leave the idea of "price gouging" alone, and concentrate on the question of why that's a problem. Because it drives the price up so that nobody wants to take the trade unless they are in dire circumstances. Again, the price is too high.
3) That normal trades are not posted is, indeed, a contributor to the problem because it's an attempt to not "feed the parasites." The problem is not that it's done, but that it's either not done enough. In any case, they do that to try to keep the price down by not allowing the "parasites" access to their goods. So, in the end it's the price that's the problem in all three cases. Bring the price down and problem solved.

As I explained above, if you want to bring the price down you have to organize and starve the "parasites." Very difficult to do in a game without universal communication.

Or, you can just build whatever it is they are taking and undercut their prices by a small amount -- cutting their profits to next to nothing. That's what I'd do. Even if they were able to take what you produce, the profit would be so low they couldn't do it forever. I would expect in a week or less they would fold and try to sell all that stored stuff well below it's relative value.

Again, the answer to the problem is either macroeconomic: let the "government" do it, or micro-economic -- let us do it for ourselves by just making more of what they are buying and undercutting their price slightly. It's starving them of profit that is the key here.

AJ
 

helya

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
I've removed the poll while this is under discussion. When you're ready to re-format the idea and post an official poll, please tag me.

You may not be a fan of an idea and it's fine to disagree, but refrain from insulting other players. We've done some thread clean-up. Please be nice. If you don't like what someone has to say, then comment, on topic, without being a jerk.
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
As I explained above, if you want to bring the price down you have to organize and starve the "parasites." Very difficult to do in a game without universal communication.
OK I would agree starving the parasite is the only in-game way, and since we know that it won't work without a way to ban together across the servers, then what can we do?
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
firstly I'm going to state I have not read every single comment in this thread but skimmed past a lot of the discussion…

re the "stock market" comparison: i'd compare it more to price gouging during extreme circumstances. Like when you see a 24 pack of water for sale at the store for 85 dollars because there is a hurricane and it cant be gotten. there are no substitutes, so you take it or you don't. to me that's the problem with these scalpers/trolls/parasites… they take opportunities from people who are playing the GAME and turn it into an opportunity for themselves to play the PLAYERS.

for me that's the reason a solution of some sort should be found, whether it's removing the ability to be that troll, or rebalancing the goods being produced so that no one has an abnormal surplus or inability to match up good trades. all i want is to be able to fairly play the game without being placed at a disadvantage by the coding or by people taking advantage of it to be a 'big shot" controlling trades/goods.
The main difference is that you can put an add on the market to buy bottles of water 1 dollar. and in general those trades are taken.
Yes some people put adds on the market for 85 dollar, and there might be people buying them too for that price.
But it doesn't mean you can't get bottles for 1 dollar. the issue is and stays that too few people are willing to post there own trades and wait.
Since the inception 6 years ago this seems to be an issue, a lot of active traders that want goods now and way to few passive traders that are willing to wait a bit.

I've removed the poll while this is under discussion. When you're ready to re-format the idea and post an official poll, please tag me.

You may not be a fan of an idea and it's fine to disagree, but refrain from insulting other players. We've done some thread clean-up. Please be nice. If you don't like what someone has to say, then comment, on topic, without being a jerk.
Market issues in whatever form are not created by traders. they have different underlying issues (example: cough! moonstone set cough!) or it stays to be an active vs passive trader imbalances.

Even I a fervent passive trader often delay putting goods on the market because of the notification system. I try to bundle all my trades every 4-6 weeks or so so I can avoind my notification menu to be poised by trade notifications. I take the pain once and they can avoid it for several weeks.

It would make way more sense to try to do something about the notification menu, and / or revamp the wholesaler to buy/swap up any goods with a 10% markup instead of super quick inflated insame stupid swap prices that make no sense and make the wholesaler stupidly useless.
This would make it easier to get rid of natural imbalances in the game and the avoidance of passive trades because of notification poisoning.

It also makes the trading people have more difficulty as the top markup they can implement is no more than 10%.

These kinds of suggestions make way more sense to me as they try to fix the underlying issue, instead of blaming it on a few people who are not to blame for all the issues I just described.

I am really tired of the blame game some players keep playing on certain other players. The issue is not them, what needs to be done is to fix the real issues
 
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BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
as @ajqtrz and I seem to be in the minority, lets try it this way .....

"Hide unfair trades comming from outside the FS" ( orig title )
This is a 2 part suggestion really....
1) hide "unfair" trades
2) hide non FS trades

1st off, if you don't wanna see 0-1 star trades, don't scroll down that far.
2nd, if you want to abolish any non 2star trade, they the only possibility
is to eliminate 3star, 1star, & 0star. ( 1* or 3* are opposites of same coin )

I personally don't see the problem ( from dev perspective ) to just add
a FS filter, a ?-star filter, and a type filter ( reg, sentient, accended ).
This solves any problems see'n offers "you" don't wanna see.
I also believe 100% .... "unfair" must be changed to "even" in description.

On the other hand, the belief in changing the 1:8 - 8:1 min/max is
completely seperate. The wholesaler charges 5:1.... If your aim is to
only offer 2star trades, then anything other than 1:1 woule be eliminated.
If you eliminate that, its no longer a trade system, @ that point it
becomes a 100% swap system. You also will no longer be able to "feed"
other players for whatever reason..... Sounds to me a great way for
established/older players to bully newer/smaller cities into submission.

Another reason it seems some players hate "traders" or "econ players",
in games such as this.... is simple :
Econ players spend thousands of hours reg ppl are not willing to spend
being econ players, they are really good @ it, and unless as some have said,
you have a more concentrated effort by many players, you cannot put them
outta buisness easily.... Unless you just chg the whole system :rolleyes:....
Just like in real life, if you can't beat someone economically, just chg the rules.
I find that determination to be totally absurd, and selfish.

My current price is 20-30% higher than 1:1 .... thats not parasitical in any way.
I do not see the Trade system as a Swap system, and I'll bet the dev team
didin't program it as a swap system, or there would be 1 option 1:1 only.

The whole Trader system as it is is too bias'd against smaller/newer cities.
I don't see the smaller cities complaining, its the big/established cities. I also
would like, Mr. smarty pants @SoggyShorts , for once to be helpfull....
I want a full description of all 3 types of goods, as it pertains to higher than
level 1 trader.... Are there 3 levels of trader ? Once you advance do you lose
all the previous levels of goods ? Why is it just sentient goods that seem to
so often get mentioned in this debate/discussion, not other types of goods ??

I don't wanna hear...... yeah that Brin guy is just CH4, he doesn't understand.
So teach me Saib , allow mw to understand and I just might rethink my
posistion ( doubt it, but when pigs fly, right )

in Conclusion, there are more ways than just "chg everything to a swap system
and problem solved". Filters certainly work well and are easily coded. Maybe
its high time, Elvenar, has another complete discussion on the whole Trade system.
And not solutions that only favor 1 group of players, any rethink must be a
balanced approach for both early/mid/late chapter players.

Brin Darby
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
ok, I thought I'd be usefull .... or try ....

Elven-Trad-2.jpg

As you can see, as you move thru chapters it will add whatever you have unlocked.
This shows for all 3 good types, and only has 2 add'd filters ... Since I'm not in higher
chapters, I can't see what you see, but doesn't this 100% solve any percieved problem
by the orig poster of this thread ????
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
OK I would agree starving the parasite is the only in-game way, and since we know that it won't work without a way to ban together across the servers, then what can we do?
Actually, I said there were two ways. The one quoted here was to boycott the players making the attempt to corner the market.
The other is much easier and can be implemented by just about anybody at or above the chapters where the goods can be produced/traded. Just under cut their prices enough to starve them of profit. Start producing more of the goods they are buying low and sell it at a lower price then theirs. You squeeze the profits to below 10% and they are going to lose.

So it is doable and nobody has to organize anything. All that is needed is to realize you stand to gain a lot if you produce more and undercut until the prices are brought down. Then put your extra sentient goods mrfs away and carry on.

I do like the idea of a filter to remove the trades you don't wish to look at. That's like going to the grocery store and not bothering with the meat counter because you never eat meat. I'm all for choice.

AJ
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
The one quoted here was to boycott the players making the attempt to corner the market.
However, as you have noted before, there is an insufficent number of players actively reading this forum per server to have enough traction to work, so without server-wide or a universal communications channel, a boycott is doomed to fail.

This is a roadblock to either solution, I fear
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
doesn't this 100% solve any percieved problem by the orig poster of this thread ????
Nope. As I explained, with sentient goods there are players who buy up all of 2 types per tier and repost at much higher prices.
Your proposal does nothing to address this.

It's not that's seeing the trades is offensive to the eyes, it's that because all players can see the trades some players will take them, and the practice will continue disproportionally affecting players with "unlucky" boosts(those players effectively pay 20-30% more for anything that costs sentient goods like techs&spire)

The OPs proposal removes the possibility of sustainably profiting the way those players are now and solves the problem.
 
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SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I also
would like, Mr. smarty pants @SoggyShorts , for once to be helpfull....
I want a full description of all 3 types of goods, as it pertains to higher than
level 1 trader.... Are there 3 levels of trader ? Once you advance do you lose
all the previous levels of goods ? Why is it just sentient goods that seem to
so often get mentioned in this debate/discussion, not other types of goods ??
Sorry, I missed this.
Sentient goods are different for 2 main reasons
1. they are global, not local to your discovered neighbors- This allows a single player or team to take control of the entire market.
2. they decay (disappear) at a rate of 10% every day, so sitting and waiting for someone to take a trade that you need at a rate you can afford isn't a simple fix.
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
And to be honest it mainly becomes an issue if you are above chapter 13 and need the goods to negotiate in the spire, upgrade bldgs and in chapter 15 you will need 1.945 Mil of Soap, 1.750 Mil of Shrooms and 2.165 Mil of Bismuth. That is why the market for Sentient goods is an issue as most are not lucky enough to be boosted in the RIGHT good and you must create your own and also trade for equal or larger amounts. This doesn't include the 525K of Sentient goods (Ink, Velvet, and Obsidian) needed.