• Dear forum visitor,

    It looks as though you have not registered for a forum account, or are not signed in. In order to participate in current discussions or create new threads, you will need to register for a forum account by clicking on the link below.

    Click here to register for a forum account!

    If you already have a forum account, you can simply click on the 'Log in' button at the top right of your forum screen.

    Your Elvenar Team

Hide unfair trades coming from outside the FS

ed1960

Well-Known Member
...

All I'm saying is that there need not be a lot of organization or a lot of players. One person, able to produce whatever it is they "parasites" are making their profit on, undercutting those players profit, brings the price down at the same time it makes a profit for the player doing so. And as the price goes down, it goes down for all.

AJ
AJ, please don't mix the Non-Sentient goods trades or issues with the Sentient goods. Each has unique issues that are not exchangeable. It is truly apples and oranges.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
please don't mix the Non-Sentient goods trades or issues with the Sentient goods. Each has unique issues that are not exchangeable. It is truly apples and oranges.
I am not in Sentients and am having difficulty grasping the concept.
Specifically I am wondering;
Do players make sentient goods 24/7 like standard goods or are productions more as needed or as able? You need seeds to make them? Do players often run out of seeds and thus no sentient goods?

In my FSs seeds are a solid gripe.
 

Lelanya

Well-Known Member
I am not in Sentients and am having difficulty grasping the concept.
Specifically I am wondering;
Do players make sentient goods 24/7 like standard goods or are productions more as needed or as able? You need seeds to make them? Do players often run out of seeds and thus no sentient goods?

In my FSs seeds are a solid gripe.
Seeds. At the beginning of Elementals seeds can be an issue. When the chapter was released, the number guys in my signature FS crunched em and came up with a standard:
- open provinces about a chapter ahead AND
- have at least 50 Wonder levels
If you want to move through the chapter fairly quickly, this should work reasonably well for 2 sentient factories. I tend to play a balanced game wherein I arrive at the last block of research in front if the AW one with approximately 10 provinces to go. I have had no trouble unless I instant the first few productions.
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
I will try to explain.

T1-2-3 goods never decay or expire and you make them from Day1 More or less. There is no limit on how many you can have and saving millions is not a problem. The issue is when the game floods with 1 type like with Scrolls and unbalances the market. The need and uses for your goods is relatively stable and not demanding. For most players by the time they get to Ch12 Elementals, they can afford to pay the 40K in T2 or 30K in T3 for a single Tech.

Now you are in Ch12 Elementals and you get to make sentient goods. Just like with T1-2-3 your relic numbers present you with a boost and hopefully it is at 700%. Once you start you will quickly learn that sentient goods are only made in 3 or 9-hour blocks and decay at 10% a night w/o AW influence. So make 50K a day and you lose 5K overnight this becomes a norm, oh and the seeds you need to start making Sentient goods also decay every night too and You need them for Tech in Ch12 414K worth so you best be making lots of seeds. This pattern repeats for Ch 13 and 14, until you have all 3 Sentient goods available.

At this point, end of Ch14 you are only using Sentient goods for Tech and your Regular goods are not as important. And the largest single need in one tech is 35K. And no more than 192K total for any sentient good T4 & T5 and 94K for T6.

Now we get to Chapter 15 and it all goes into a Dung Pile, so to speak, see next post to keep it short
 

Lelanya

Well-Known Member
I am in early chapter 16. I have 2 each S1 and S2, 3 S3 factories. I do 9hr *overnight, 9hr, 3hr (maybe) just to make goods for Spire negotiations. If I need extra for upgrading factories or Wonders, or for research, I run 9hr *overnight, MM spell, harvest, 3hr x3 ideally, to gain or get ahead. Sometimes - if I've fallen behind, or am trying to maintain a comfortable cushion, i will run 1 set on 9hrx2, and enspell the others on the more aggressive cycle. I should talk about seed sources for those cities in detail but I am away from my PC.
 
Last edited:

ed1960

Well-Known Member
Chapter 15 Well I feel for you depending on what your boost is and what server you are on as each has unique issues of Boosted goods scarcities.
Ignoring all other considerations you Make 1 of each Sentient just like regular and must trade for the balance you need.

Seems simple, right, wrong, as not only do your goods decay every night you are limited in how many you can produce (that 3 and 9-hour timeframe) and how many you are able to have for trade after using what you need for any other use. Again your T4 needs for the chapter is 175K to 195K just like the prior one but it is all in single blocks of 2 techs each T4 (95K+100K) (75K +100K) (80K+105K) and only 1 is your boost and you must trade for the other 2

Next, we look at yourT5 needs of 525K EACH for the chapter but only 3 Techs each to use T5 (75K+95K+355K) (90K+90K+345K) (80K+95K+350K) and again 1 is boosted and you need to trade for the rest. The large trades are in a row so you need to replenish your supply of T5's quickly and then start trading.

Lastly, the T6 and here is where it gets ugly and causes the main issue. For the chapter, you will need from your T6's 1,945,000 in soap, 1,750,000 in Shrooms, and 2,165,000in bismuth, and the amounts range from 55K to 435K for a single tech using multiple T6's (see costs and requirements here for all the details.
Needless to say, your boost and server will determine the level of pain the chapter will cause and the time it will take to get thru it. But, how does this matter, well if you are boosted in the wrong Item and you need to trade for it you might find the server has none available except at price gouging numbers, and you must trade to get what you need and in large amounts 200K and above.

Yes all this means you need more and more seeds and if you add more Sentient mfg to gain more for trading(I did with 6) then more seeds again, and making 50K per day in seeds is not easy.

So hopefully now you see some of the issues that create the trade problems with the sentient goods, and why is it apples and oranges.

Ed
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
@Iyapo1 I didn't see global trading mentioned above as a factor, but I think it matters a lot, too. If someone wants to corner their market on, say, crystal... fine. They can do their thing, but it's always possible for you to go elsewhere: You (probably, unless you're very small and they're very big) have neighbors they don't have, and you can join a fellowship. You can find different trading partners who aren't trying to profit off of you.

With global trading, you can't compensate so easily. AJ's explanation above sounds great, in theory... but it doesn't actually play out that way for sentients. A single very attentive player in a global market can simply accept a very large portion of desirable trades for the entire server and then repost them for a profit. So even though other people follow AJ's advice and post trades that undercut the bad rates, the person who is being undercut can simply take those trades too, repost them, and still profit. No, they can't get 100% of them, but they can take enough of the "good" trades and replace them with bad ones to make life difficult for folks. And yes, as AJ pointed out, this is an "opportunity" for folks who have the boosts that are in demand, but it kind of screws over the folks who don't.
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
@Iyapo1 I didn't see global trading mentioned above as a factor, but I think it matters a lot, too. ...
You are most astute, I neglected to add that and several other things like the effect of AW's and your FS and your rank in the FS and other things as I was focused on the differences and reasons for my apple and oranges analogy.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
AJ, please don't mix the Non-Sentient goods trades or issues with the Sentient goods. Each has unique issues that are not exchangeable. It is truly apples and oranges.
Yeah, my example wasn't good as it was standard goods, but the principle is the same. The taking of goods by those trying to corner the market is even easier to break in sentient goods because of the nightly decay. This forces those attempting to do so to make more profit to make the whole thing workable.

@Iyapo1 I didn't see global trading mentioned above as a factor, but I think it matters a lot, too. If someone wants to corner their market on, say, crystal... fine. They can do their thing, but it's always possible for you to go elsewhere: You (probably, unless you're very small and they're very big) have neighbors they don't have, and you can join a fellowship. You can find different trading partners who aren't trying to profit off of you.

With global trading, you can't compensate so easily. AJ's explanation above sounds great, in theory... but it doesn't actually play out that way for sentients. A single very attentive player in a global market can simply accept a very large portion of desirable trades for the entire server and then repost them for a profit. So even though other people follow AJ's advice and post trades that undercut the bad rates, the person who is being undercut can simply take those trades too, repost them, and still profit. No, they can't get 100% of them, but they can take enough of the "good" trades and replace them with bad ones to make life difficult for folks. And yes, as AJ pointed out, this is an "opportunity" for folks who have the boosts that are in demand, but it kind of screws over the folks who don't.
You are, of course, correct, that a player can simply take those too, and repost them. However, there are limits. Doing the calculations, -- assuming a 6% decay and a million goods as the starting amount, if one calculates the size of the trades and the limit of slots (60) to use, in a few days the number of trades necessary to keep up with the repost idea becomes untenable.

Here are some numbers to consider given the assumptions above.

Starting with a million if you made the size of your trade 20K, you'd have to do 50 trades. At 30k average size of the trade, its 33 and so on. So what is the average size of the trades being made for, say bisumuth? That determine just how many reposts you can do if you don't resize the trade. So if you purchase, say 1,000 2-star trades at 20k each you can take in a million -- double your investment, which sounds pretty good. But 1,000 trades a day means over 41 trades per hour and if you sleep, you would probably have, at most 18 hours. So it's more like 55 trades per hour. With things like breakfast, lunch and dinner, and just using the bathroom, you are probably talking a trade a minute for 18 hours a day if you size your bismuth trades at 20k. Of course that's what you are selling at a time. It doesn't matter the size of your purchase, but if you can't post a trade it can't be taken.

In the end, then, you are forced to increase the size of your trades OR drive yourself very, very hard for 18 hours a day to keep up. Yes, you might be able to put 60 trades up every hour in a few minutes, but even that would be a bit tedious. I'm not sure anybody would have the fortitude to do so for long. And since you are taking in a lot of stock, eventually, by about day 5-7 if you can't post it, you can't sell it, and if you can't sell it, you lose 6% of it each day. The turning point depends on the volume and size of the posts. If the average player just can't take a 60k bismuth trade you aren't going to be able to sustain that level. In my experience 40k seems to be about the limit if you want to move things quickly, which brings up the second limit.

The second limit is sales resistance. As you post your trades and have to increase their size to keep up the profit levels -- the whole point of the exercise -- you will have fewer and fewer players willing/able to pickup your reposed trades. Even a whole server is a limited number. The higher price raises sales resistance as the value of the trade, for the individual player is personal. Thus, more and more will just say, "it isn't worth it." A diminishing base of buyers will effect just how much you can do as well.

A third limit, is the amount being produced. Obviously, if you are absorbing all that is being produced you will be limited in how much you can sell. If the supply remains stable and the demand remains stable you can live nicely within the margins so long as demand doesn't slip and supply doesn't grow. My comments are all based upon changing the mix by increasing production AND letting the players own pricing practices lower the demand. So let's say the server is producing 5 million bismuth a day. At 100% markup the "nefarious" character, to keep the average profit at 100% needs over 6 million. As you lower the markup the amount gets less, but even at 20% the supply can't meet his/her needs after about 15 days because the server isn't producing enough. So he/she has to drop prices or settle for less and less profit. If you increase supply you increase competition and doing that forces the player to buy even more AND without any increase in profit because he/she has to meet your price -- i.e. pay you the price you use just below theirs. Now, of course, they can do that if they are making a lot of profit -- but as we've seen, increasing the supply floods the market and brings pressure to bear on the "nefarious" characters.

Since the wholesaler never runs out, doesn't have to post and sells everything for 100% profit (my current level) there is a maximum profit the seller can make. With decay that's about 94%. Sounds like a lot but only sustainable, for mentioned reasons, for a few days before the supply isn't sufficient, the demand dries up, others start producing and undercutting it. In the end I'd be surprised if the level of sustainability for more than 14 days is much above 20%. And at that rate, when you subtract 6% decay, you have to ask is it worth 1,000 or more trades a day?

So the answer isn't "restructure the markets" but simply take advantage of them and make what is in demand, even if the demand is artificially manipulated by those "nefarious" players.

In doing the math for this I do recognize the opportunity to keep prices ten to twenty percent above the 1:1 ration of a 2-star trade. But isn't that what's going on with scrolls in some servers? I regularly pay 1.2 to 1 for crystal and silk, but then again, to meet this need, I just produce or trade for the scrolls I need. So the "artificial" value created by those trying to "corner the market" in whatever sentient good, is not a sustainable plan and can be pretty easily broken by a very few players just producing more and more. In the end the owners of all those sentient goods will either just sit on them or sell them -- for a lot less. And who would complain then?

AJ
 

The Fairy

Well-Known Member
So the answer isn't "restructure the markets" but simply take advantage of them and make what is in demand, even if the demand is artificially manipulated by those "nefarious" players.
How do you make what is in demand if you are boosted in gum, velvet and bismuth?
 

The Fairy

Well-Known Member
What I don't understand is: What's so hard about just not taking these "unfair" trades and posting trades that are smaller and more "fair"?
It is quite easy to avoid taking these trades if you are not boosted in gum, velvet or bismuth, since the 6 other sentient goods are easy to trade so you can just put up 2 star trades which are grabbed fairly fast (maybe by some who resell your goods as bad zero star trades).

PS. I've noticed that these "parasites" are actually the most helpful to me when I NEED trades done quickly!
I can imagine they are cause they want your goods so they can resell them to earn a lot....
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
How do you make what is in demand if you are boosted in gum, velvet and bismuth?
Let's say they attempt is to corner soap and you don't produce soap. To accomplish their goals they have to trade in something besides soap. After all, they can't offer 1 soap for 1.2 soaps, since the system doesn't allow it and nobody would take it. So they have to buy bismuth or shrooms. We'll use bismuth in our example since you, like I, make bismuth.

So they want 1.2 bismuth for 1 soap. The interesting thing to remember is that they have to buy bismuth. Why? Because it's either that or shrooms. They can't trade buy soap without having bismuth and/or soap. You produce bismuth so the price pressure on bismuth goes up as their buying increases demand. So they go to the trade boards and start buying bismuth for either soap or shrooms As noted they want 1.2 bismuth for 1 soap (at a profit of 20%) and perhaps, 1:1 bismuth for shrooms.

In either case, you have a opportunity. Since they need bismuth you can offer it at 1.2 to 1 soap. But you don't have a problem with production and no need to buy bismuth so it's a sustainable offer for you. Of course, they won't take your offer but as they increase their need for bismuth in an effort to continue profits, they will come closer and closer to a willingness to take your bismuth at 1.2 to 1 for soap. The numbers at 20% profit show they will need about 2.5 million bismuth and shrooms a day by day 14 to make their goals. And it grows daily exponentially. By day 19 the needs have more than doubled from day 14. Since you have what they need, it's an opportunity for you.

Now, of course, they can just quit buying soap. They can take a huge amount of profit for 10 days and then stop. At that point they are holding about 3 million soap. But what to do with it? Since they have absorbed it from the markets they can sit on it and use it, eventually, in their own cities. That may be the only real point in the exercise. For if they try to sell it they will need to do so at a discount or even, either of which removes the profit, as the demand is less than their supply and if they don't produce bismuth and/or shrooms they will have to trade it for those items.

In the end, they need what you have and if you do it right you will profit from them. But you have to be willing to build the production and take the time and effort. You will also have to endure the negative consequences of being market driven in your game play rather than artificially driven by game defined values for your goods.

AJ
 
Last edited:

TreasureHunter

New Member
I would love the option to block all 1 star and Zero star trades! I despise them! Just a button to block. Like when you only want to see fellowship trades only.
 

OIM20

Well-Known Member
I would love the option to block all 1 star and Zero star trades! I despise them! Just a button to block. Like when you only want to see fellowship trades only.
If whatever helya has alluded to here:
While I cannot tell you what it is yet, there is a new feature in the works that should help players get rid of their surplus goods while hopefully taking care of the goods imbalances. I would hold off on this suggestion for a little while.
doesn't include a 'rate filter' option, I'll move my mock-up images to a new suggestion thread. They're already visible here: https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index....-coming-from-outside-the-fs.26399/post-213235

At the time I did that, I was unaware that the mobile app actually already allows players to filter out the undiscovered, non-FS trades (the "!" ones). The web version (unless whatever they're doing that has all 8 US servers down right now is to insert one [bug post, general post]) doesn't have this filter option.

I do not envy the staff at a time like this. They know things. They wish they could say things. They have to not say things and probably want to head-desk at some of the things people comment, knowing what will/won't be addressed by the things they know are about to come.
 

Lelanya

Well-Known Member
I have some notes I need to clear out regarding seeds. I did undertake to describe what I do with my chapter 16 cities, to maintain or get ahead with regards to decaying goods, and this is really not complete without a couple of points.

First off, many chapter 14/15 level buildings require seeds in use for updates. The Main Hall required a HUGE amount for two upgrades, not to mention the impact, by late Constructs I would say, that requires a huge restructure in favor of seed production. I did a refresh on mana producers, and put a lot in storage while ensuring that I was relying more heavily on lava eggs. and similar high end longer pickup items. I then crunched some numbers and pulled out, upgraded, or crafted a higher amount of seed producers.

My older city has 3 each Festival Merchants and Golden Palaces, 2 Black Lotuses, a Candy Booth and a Prince Charming, the Clocktower Owl set and an Elvenar Trade Center at level 7. The Trader gives seeds based on 196 Wonder levels and 478 solved provinces. My best city has 3 Festival Merchants, 2 each Black Lotus and Prince Charming, a Golden Palace, Pond of Autumn, Clam Cliffs, Woodelven Float, Ice Slide, Candy Booth, Elvenade Logistics Center and a level 6 Elvenar Trade Center. It has 207 Wonder levels and 455 solved provinces that gives a better ratio in the Trader than my older city with more solved provinces.

I usually have a good margin to instant some S3 done unless I've just upgraded 4 buildings that require seeds. Advise your fellows, @Iyapo1, that a refresh is necessary, to cycle out mana producers and replace with seed items. Keep in mind that both my cities have Dragon Abbeys that are around level 21 so produce mana on demand.