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    Your Elvenar Team

Hide unfair trades coming from outside the FS

GlamDoll

Well-Known Member
@Enevhar Aldarion Thanks for explaining it like that. I haven't been producing sentient goods very long, a few months at best, so it is a lot for me to take in. I will have to look closer now. Usually when I see sentient trades post with 1 star I ignore it just about as quickly as the trades with no star. And trying to go through 80 ish pages on average, gets tedious, to say the least. I usually just post what I want/need & hope the trades get accepted. Which is weird for me, because I seldom posted trades before sentient chapters.

Yeah, I am all in favor for it being made better. 0-star trades being visible by FS only sounds grand. That way we can still help when needed. Anyways, thanks again for taking the time & explaining it in a way that works for me.
 

ET-inf3rno

Well-Known Member
I see. Gonna re-read this thread...
Edit: So, don't allow Sentient trades to be less than 2 star & still allow 3 star sentient trades & problem is solved? Yes?
Yes. Sort of. Most ppl still need 0 and 1 star trades inside the FS. Looks like some of us need them outside the FS too.
 

ET-inf3rno

Well-Known Member
The problem is that not all 1-star trades are bad when it comes to sentient goods. You offer 11000 platinum for 10000 moonstone, so you are offering a 3-star trade. Someone else offers 10000 moonstone for 11000 platinum, which is a 1-star trade. But the exact same amount of goods is changing hands, so I think there should be a range of 1-star trades that are close to being 2-star that should still be visible to everyone. If a good is harder to come by, the I see nothing wrong with a 1-star that is within 5-10% of being a 2-star. But regardless of what might be done with 1-star trades, I definitely agree that 0-star trades should be visible to your fellowship only, no matter what the goods being offered.

I also don't like how a trade that is just barely favorable to the one taking the trade is considered 3-star, when it is really 2-star in all but name. Maybe a separate suggestion that treats all trades that range from 10% below to 10% above to be 2-star, rather than the barely different amounts now that make something 1 or 3-star.

And that is all only for same-tier trades. When you talk about cross-tier trades, things get weirder, at least for all of us who were playing under the old 16:4:1 system. There are cross-tier trades now that the new system labels 1-star that would have been very good 3-star trades before. especially when talking about sentient goods.

The main problem is not that zero star trades exist, but that some people with big cities take for example all ink from the market with slightly good trades (101:100) and reselling them with very unfair trades (87:100) even if they don't need the goods at all. Most people cannot do much against this except taking the bad trades or waiting 1-2-3 days for a fair (100:100) trade to be accepted with a lot of decay or posting really good (110:100) trades, which will be taken by the same people who keep the prices high this way. The goal of the suggested changes to stop this exploitation from happening. As far as I understand most people would pay the price of losing the option to accept unfair trades coming from outside the FS, but of course there are exceptions. I am biased, because I rarely accept unfair trades coming from outside the FS, so for me this is not a big price to pay for better trading where I don't need to skip sometimes 30 pages of unfair trades. For others it might be a problem, especially for players who play with multiple cities in different fellowships in the same world.
 
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GlamDoll

Well-Known Member
Yes. Sort of. Most ppl still need 0 and 1 star trades inside the FS. Looks like some of us need them outside the FS too.

o_O I was unaware of that. I can see how it makes sense though. I use to have around 20-30K pop w/o a job, for many months. My sentient factories destroyed my pop & my seeds. :) And I have marble as my least amount of good. (We won't speak of it being maxed boosted for many many moons now)...

I can see where the Sentient goods for those without the pop would need 0 and 1 star trades. I would too, if I hadn't had a pop surplus. And now? I am almost zilch on pop & still can't do my upgrades. Bonus? About to unlock tech to upgrade MH...That is gonna be a hot minute, unless I can upgrade with 0 or 1 pop! :p Sorry, couldn't help myself. Gonna hush now. :)
 

ET-inf3rno

Well-Known Member
o_O I was unaware of that. I can see how it makes sense though. I use to have around 20-30K pop w/o a job, for many moths. My sentient factories destroyed my pop & my seeds. :) And I have marble as my least amount of good. (We won't speak of it being maxed boosted for many many moons now)...

I can see where the Sentient goods for those without the pop would need 0 and 1 star trades. I would too, if I hadn't had a pop surplus. And now? I am almost zilch on pop & still can't do my upgrades. Bonus? About to unlock tech to upgrade MH...That is gonna be a hot minute, unless I can upgrade with 0 or 1 pop! :p Sorry, couldn't help myself. Gonna hush now. :)

I just entered chapter 17 a few hours ago. :) :) :) I still have many upgrades left from chapter 16, all of them requiring 50k+ seeds, around 2-3M total. I have no idea how I will do them all. It will take months no matter how many festival merchants I build. There is always a new goal in this game. :)
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
The main problem is not that zero star trades exist, but that some people with big cities take for example all ink from the market with slightly good trades (101:100) and reselling them with very unfair trades (87:100) even if they don't need the goods at all. Most people cannot do much against this except taking the bad trades or waiting 1-2-3 days for a fair (100:100) trade to be accepted with a lot of decay or posting really good (110:100) trades, which will be taken by the same people who keep the prices high this way. The goal of the suggested changes to stop this exploitation from happening. As far as I understand most people would pay the price of losing the option to accept unfair trades coming from outside the FS, but of course there are exceptions. I am biased, because I rarely accept unfair trades coming from outside the FS, so for me this is not a big price to pay for better trading where I don't need to skip sometimes 30 pages of unfair trades. For others it might be a problem, especially for players who play with multiple cities in different fellowships in the same world.

Not sure what server you are on, but on Arendyll, I almost never have my sentient trades taken by the "bad" people. And I almost always post 3-star trades because I want the goods the same day. And since trades are listed in descending order, there is no reason to even see the unfair trades, unless you are looking for something specific in those trades.
 

GlamDoll

Well-Known Member
I just entered chapter 17 a few hours ago. :) :) :) I still have many upgrades left from chapter 16, all of them requiring 50k+ seeds, around 2-3M total. I have no idea how I will do them all. It will take months no matter how many festival merchants I build
@.@ But, I said I was gonna hush though. Grats on the new chapter, not jelly at all. :p
There is always a new goal in this game. :)
So true :) :):)

`.~
 

ET-inf3rno

Well-Known Member
Not sure what server you are on, but on Arendyll, I almost never have my sentient trades taken by the "bad" people. And I almost always post 3-star trades because I want the goods the same day. And since trades are listed in descending order, there is no reason to even see the unfair trades, unless you are looking for something specific in those trades.
I am only on Sinya now. I stopped playing on other servers a year ago. It was too much to run 7 cities. I see them often, because many times I list trades that offer or need specific goods e.g. the goods I need for the next research or the goods I produce. Not to mention that since these things are happening I don't take the 3-star trades that these people offer, so I have to go through the trades and skip 3-star trades by name too to avoid supporting them. Many people do the same here as far as I know, which makes trading really inconvenient. The alternative would be abandoning our moral code.
 

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper, Keys to the Gems
Emma that's awesome, thinking outside the box!

So I will say, I have a friend that decided to help me at one point. I was just starting Amuni with my lead city, whereas he was just finishing, with Constructs not released yet. He was in one of these FSs where surplus is supposed to be traded internally - not that it says that on their overview of course, that's an unpleasant surprise after the player arrives. Anyhow my friend really hated all the control exerted by the FS, so he wrote all his friends and urged us to place 0 star trades so he could share the wealth with us. So I was thinking if @ET-inf3rno's fat cat traders were of the same stripe... that goes a long way to solving the puzzle of motivation. By the way, beware of any player who is monopolizing trades. Not only are they setting themselves up to control scarce resources, they are disrupting your interpersonal relationships within your FS or neighborhood. A trade notice leads to exchanges of polish, but if one person is taking them all, you get less help from your near associates.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
how would it be "better"?
removing an option is "better"?
Yes removing the option would make things better for most players.
It's simple:
Scenario 1:
I have 100 soap and post for 100 shrooms.
Parasite comes in, grabs the trade and reposts at 87 for 100
You log in needing soap. Either you post&pray, or you take that inferior trade.

Scenario 2:
I have 100 soap and post for 100 shrooms.
You take it.

Scenario 2 is better. Sure, we are taking away the parasite's choice, but this is a game. It should be fun. When someone's choices in a game make it less fun for everyone else, then we need to examine if those choices should remain as an option.
Especially since it's just one parasite and there are hundreds of you and me in the above scenarios.
Is this some kind of white supremacy in elvenar form? Is this the new nazi party
Have you lost your mind?

Not wanting a trader flooded with lame trades because of a couple of losers playing a stupid side game to see how many sentient goods they can gather makes us as bad as White supremacists?
Wanting to return the market to players who actually spend the goods on progress instead of just growing an ever-larger pile of decaying sentients makes us Nazis?
Really?

You said I was wrong in another thread when I called you out for being bitter and angry with the game, but the evidence keeps piling up...
 
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SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
While I still fully support this idea since the good clearly outweighs the bad, someone posted in an alternative in another thread that's worth discussing or possibly even incorporating here:
Weighted trades.
Normally you can post 60 trades, but what if every trade posted at less than 2 stars counted as 20?
This way if you need to post an uneven trade or even 2 or 3 of them, you can, but you can't flood the market.
 
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Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Normally you can post 60 trades, but what if every trade posted at less than 2 stars counted as 20?
This way if you need to post an uneven trade or even 2 or 3 of them, you can, but you can't flood the market.
This idea has merit.
Another possibility instead of hiding trades could be a timer on trades less than 2 star. If the trades aren’t picked up or canceled before the timer runs out, the person posting loses those goods. Just a thought...
This is another. Trades are automatically removed from the trader if they sit there for 7 days. I've looked at how long some of these trades sit there. Many are down to less than a day. That's too long for less than 1:1 trades. Of course the person could continually replace them.

There isn't an ideal solution. Philosophically, I don't like making it so you can't see less then 1:1 trades outside your FS. That strikes me as a bit draconian. I wouldn't mind an option to not see them and I know, every time that has been mentioned in this thread @ET-inf3rno says that weakens the purpose of the idea. It's your idea and it's proper for you to defend it. You've done a very good job of explaining it. I just don't like your solution.

In a way, I contribute to the problem by placing almost exclusively 33k for 30k trades. They get taken within an hour, unless they are for silk. Since seeing this thread I have looked at trades posted after mine have been taken. I've noticed a couple of people who have taken a lot of the S trades have reposted some of them as 1:1 trades. They make a 10% profit, but they have also broken them down to smaller trades that others without goods can take and I'm not seeing theirs as less than 1:1. I guess I sell bulk. They sell retail.
 

Elf Emma

Active Member
Trades are automatically removed from the trader if they sit there for 7 days. I've looked at how long some of these trades sit there. Many are down to less than a day. That's too long for less than 1:1 trades. Of course the person could continually replace them.


In a way, I contribute to the problem by placing almost exclusively 33k for 30k trades. They get taken within an hour, unless they are for silk. Since seeing this thread I have looked at trades posted after mine have been taken. I've noticed a couple of people who have taken a lot of the S trades have reposted some of them as 1:1 trades. They make a 10% profit, but they have also broken them down to smaller trades that others without goods can take and I'm not seeing theirs as less than 1:1. I guess I sell bulk. They sell retail.

Thinking something like a 1 hr timer, just to keep them busy canceling and reposting if they don’t want to lose goods, lol.

Personally, I would just like to be able to block the players I prefer not to trade with, for whatever reason.
I will go to the wholesaler before taking an unfair trade, just on principle lol. It annoys me that when I am searching for specific goods, all I see is pages of bad trades.

I want to block those players so that I can’t see their trades and more importantly they can’t see mine.
 

ET-inf3rno

Well-Known Member
This idea has merit.

This is another. Trades are automatically removed from the trader if they sit there for 7 days. I've looked at how long some of these trades sit there. Many are down to less than a day. That's too long for less than 1:1 trades. Of course the person could continually replace them.

There isn't an ideal solution. Philosophically, I don't like making it so you can't see less then 1:1 trades outside your FS. That strikes me as a bit draconian. I wouldn't mind an option to not see them and I know, every time that has been mentioned in this thread @ET-inf3rno says that weakens the purpose of the idea. It's your idea and it's proper for you to defend it. You've done a very good job of explaining it. I just don't like your solution.

In a way, I contribute to the problem by placing almost exclusively 33k for 30k trades. They get taken within an hour, unless they are for silk. Since seeing this thread I have looked at trades posted after mine have been taken. I've noticed a couple of people who have taken a lot of the S trades have reposted some of them as 1:1 trades. They make a 10% profit, but they have also broken them down to smaller trades that others without goods can take and I'm not seeing theirs as less than 1:1. I guess I sell bulk. They sell retail.
Sure, you have every right to criticize the idea and vote no. If you have a better idea, then you can post it too in a different thread, so the admins can choose. For me it does not really matter which one is accepted as long as the problem is addressed somehow. I try to protect the integrity of this proposed solution, otherwise it will be diluted entirely and this thread becomes just brainstorming.
 

Elf Emma

Active Member
Those "parasites" only exist because people are to lame to post there own trades.
nobody forces you to take them, people take them voluntarily, thats why it exists.
Why do people not want to post trades?
I think you may not have an understanding of the issue.

Players are posting fair trades only to see them being scooped up by the “parasites” and then reposted as 0 and 1 star trades.

The problem is not a lack of fair trades being posted but rather the “parasites” that obviously have a lot of time and are creating a monopoly on certain goods.
 

ET-inf3rno

Well-Known Member
Thinking something like a 1 hr timer, just to keep them busy canceling and reposting if they don’t want to lose goods, lol.

Personally, I would just like to be able to block the players I prefer not to trade with, for whatever reason.
I will go to the wholesaler before taking an unfair trade, just on principle lol. It annoys me that when I am searching for specific goods, all I see is pages of bad trades.

I want to block those players so that I can’t see their trades and more importantly they can’t see mine.
I proposed something like that years ago when a neighbour posted 7 pages of bad trades by normal goods and I clicked on them accidentally many times when the trader was reordered. People did not like the idea of having some sort of blacklist. Still some of us ended up not trading with certain players. I think this situation is very unfortunate. The proposed solution would solve it, because if people would not be able to post unfair trades we would have no reason to ignore their 3-star trades.
 

Steelhail

Member
I like this proposal but am concerned with how "unfair" might be defined in evaluating off-tier sentient trades.

I wouldn't mind taking an offer of 13,000 platinum for 10,000 velvet, since it saves me seeds costs. Seeds costs weigh heavier in later chapters since we have to share it with Unurium costs. It sounds like from this proposal, I would not be able to see such an offer, since it would be a 1 star trade?
 

ET-inf3rno

Well-Known Member
I like this proposal but am concerned with how "unfair" might be defined in evaluating off-tier sentient trades.

I wouldn't mind taking an offer of 13,000 platinum for 10,000 velvet, since it saves me seeds costs. Seeds costs weigh heavier in later chapters since we have to share it with Unurium costs. It sounds like from this proposal, I would not be able to see such an offer, since it would be a 1 star trade?
Yes, only the fellowship members would be able to see such a trade. On the other hand if somebody seriously wants to import velvet for platinum then they could just post a 15000 platinum for 10000 velvet trade, which would be visible for everyone.
 
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