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    Your Elvenar Team

How to be successful in Ch 17 and beyond?

Soleil Nightbloom

Well-Known Member
I have just started ch 10 and seeing all these threads on the forum about how the game “zeroed in“ on the advanced players has made me a bit concerned. I have taken to heart what some of the advanced players have said here on the forum and I am making a continuous decision to try and see the game through to the end. It might be suicide and crazy to most players here on the forum but I like a challenge. Keeping in mind that I do plan on going to the end, are there any suggestions you guys have for me?

To give a bit of background I have been playing since mid-July as an Elf and only play on one world. I started playing as both fighting and negotiating all the way up to ch 6, which seemed to be a good strategy at the time. Then I started feeling like fighting was the way to go and have been placing fighting AWs in my city and have 4 armories. I’m in the process of rearranging my city for ch10 so please be nice with the critics if you look me up in elven architect :)
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Successful is relative depending on how you want to be with the Spire and tournaments. There are players who have never joined a fellowship and consider themselves successful as they advance through the core part of the game, the chapters. There are others who stopped advancing their city at various points in the game, some temporarily and some permanently, who focus on the Spire and tournaments, and consider themselves successful. Or there are players like me, somewhere in the middle, I guess. I am at the end of chapter 17 and I get what I want from the tournaments and Spire, without pushing too far, and I consider myself successful. Or my city on Beta, In the 10 months since I started it, I have reached about the mid-point of chapter 11, but one of the things speeding me up there is ignoring most of the story quests. I did them all in my chapter 17 city, so I feel no need to do them again there. I have also intentionally built way less in terms of AWs and with scouting, I have stayed close to the number needed to open the next chapter, and with this quite different playstyle from my main city, I still feel successful. I will save specifics for later when I have more time to type, but other people will probably cover the same things I might suggest. :)
 

Soleil Nightbloom

Well-Known Member
Try to keep your city compact, only use premium expansions when you need to add space (as much as you can), and only upgrade AWs that have good value (that would mostly be military AWs + TimeWarp).
I have been focusing more on my military AWs but also mountain halls to help with my production.
 

Soleil Nightbloom

Well-Known Member
I’ve been following closely to story quests because I feel that is what is pushing me through the game at a decent pace. Thanks for the insight guys I appreciate it.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
I'd suggest that you spend a bit of time deciding what YOU want out of the game. You've said you want progress, but what else? If your tourney goals are fairly modest, then honestly I think you can disregard a lot of the advice you see on the forum about "ideal" setups. A lot of what's killing the biggest players (lots of expansions and AW levels) take either a lot of time or a lot of money to acquire. If you're not a big spender (or running push accounts to beef up your AWs), it'll be a long while before you have the problems you hear about - if ever.

As a benchmark for you, I've been playing almost 3 years. I'm a steady tourney player in a strong tourney group, but even with that kp source most of my AWs are at lvl16 or lower, with a couple of outliers in the 20s. I've bought premium expansions with spire winnings and wishing wells, but not even half of them yet. I top the spire every week and average 7500ish in the tourney. I'm at the end of ch17 and haven't especially optimized my city for the new system (though I am holding back a couple of expansions, and I might soon axe my Pyramid AW). In fact, sections of it are intentionally and woefully inefficient, because they're pretty. I'm content with that. YMMV, obviously...I just wanted to give you some numbers to see that you are probably years away from being unable to do "well" in the tourney, and I don't think it'll ever be a problem if you're happy at more typical/average tourney points. You (probably) don't need to over-stress about managing your city to a formula. Now if you want to be #1, or even consistently in the top 10... disregard everything I just said. :)

One thing I have always done is be very thoughtful about the AWs I put out. They take a lot of resources (space and kp) and there are a LOT of them. Unless you calculate that something is actually saving you space (ask @SoggyShorts about that, it's his specialty) think very hard before you commit to having it. I'll let others comment on which ones are best. :)
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
If you are moving at a solid pace but not going nuts you should have as much as a year before reaching the end of the tech tree and there could very well be a massive change before then.
Meanwhile, if you don't go bleeding-edge by scouting 24/7 and buying/placing every possible expansion you can't actually screw up your city even if your eventual goals shift to becoming a top tournament competitor.
 

Soleil Nightbloom

Well-Known Member
I feel I move at a solid pace probably a little less than a month per chapter so far. I eventually want to be a top tourney and Spire player as my long term personal goals. So far I have been averaging 4500 for tourney points and reaching level 3 in the spire. I want to be more consistent with being in the top 50 for tourney it varies from week to week. Thanks for the advice, I figured I should start planning out how to get to my end goal now in chapter 10.

I bought some expansions back in chapter 2 but decided to back off and work with what is given to me from the research tree and scouting. I only do the provinces that are required to unlock a chapter by the way. I wish I knew about that sooner in the earlier chapters.
 

michmarc

Well-Known Member
Personally, I think the "punishment" that some players perceive is just comparing the old system (which was broken in some respects -- see below) to the current system. I'm just entering Ch16 and I haven't noticed any tournament punishment: I can put up more points weekly than I was able to consistently do before the tournament changes.

The broken aspect of the old system is that before, the difficulty of a tourney province was independent of the province number. [Difficulty = ratio of your troops to their troops. This is distinct from the cost.] That, combined with the fact that awards stop rotating after province 10 meant that you could do a ridiculously large number of fights to just 2 stars collecting a really silly amount of KP. It also means that if you used bonus buildings, they helped "an infinite amount". It also means that the top leaderboard positions (for those that care about it) are almost entirely determined by how many provinces you have unlocked.

[The last week before the tourney change, I dropped most of my UUU's and did every star in every province. I finished 6th because I had fewer provinces opened than the top 5.]

The new system is definitely not perfect, but difficulty increases with both stars and provinces in a way that is much more fair. Improved combat abilities (whether it is skill, combat AWs, or bonus buildings) still improve things, but not to an "infinite" amount and you can no longer just harvest a nearly limitless number of provinces if you can handle a certain fixed difficulty. They also rescaled the existing difficulty such that the first 2000 points are vastly easier than before which (in our FS's experience) means that just about everyone not in the top 1% is getting a higher tournament score.

Yes, it means you can't abuse the system anymore to do easy, constant difficulty fights to get 250KP/tourney is gone, but it was always a broken part of the system.

I still think tourney prizes should be rotated past #10 just like they are for the first 9, but it's much less important now with the current way province/star number affects difficulty.

But overall, it depends on what your goal is. I play because it's a city builder and I want to build my city. I like moving through the guest race chapters. To me the spire and tournaments are side distractions (like the monthly events). Yes, I do them, and yes, I take advantage of the rewards, but I optimize my city to move through chapters, not to be at the top of meaningless leaderboards. That's also why I generally don't use Portal Profits to bypass guest races -- for me, the experience of moving through the chapters building the unique buildings and reorganizing the city is the main draw of the game and not something to be bypassed.

But my goals may not be your goals. There is no right way to play the game and if the game is no longer meeting your needs and isn't fun anymore, then nobody is making you play.

[For reference, I've been playing just over 2 years and I'm just entering Chapter 16.]
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Personally, I think the "punishment" that some players perceive is just comparing the old system (which was broken in some respects -- see below) to the current system.
For most, though it has absolutely nothing to do with the old system
I do not care at all, not one eensy-weensy bit that I can't get as much as I could have in the old system.
I only care that:
  • If I move forward in the tech tree I can do less.
  • If I put kp into a non-military wonder I can do less
  • If I place the expansions that I have earned I can do less.
The fact that the best way to improve my city in the tournament is to sell half of my wonders, never expand, and never advance is an absolute garbage design.
The developers even said that "Although there is a downside to [the above] each advancement will benefit your city more than it will harm it"

The problem is that they were wrong. They simply failed to actually do any of the calculations. Did you read that interview with Lukas? When asked about the issue he responded that "players with a lot of wonders and expansions are still beating players without any"

They are utterly clueless about anything at the top end of the game.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
For most, though it has absolutely nothing to do with the old system
I dunno...I've heard a lot of comments along the lines of "I used to [insert specific complaint] every week, and now I can't." I think michmarc is right that a lot of the outrage, at least initially, was from players who felt a big difference between the old and new systems.

I agree with you that progress shouldn't be penalized. I shouldn't have to strategize now about how to keep my average up when I move into ch18. That IS a problem. But I think if you sort through the feedback threads and tally individual player responses (which I've admittedly not done), an awful lot of them are exactly what michmarc said.
 

LisaMV

Well-Known Member
I'd suggest that you spend a bit of time deciding what YOU want out of the game. You've said you want progress, but what else? If your tourney goals are fairly modest, then honestly I think you can disregard a lot of the advice you see on the forum about "ideal" setups. A lot of what's killing the biggest players (lots of expansions and AW levels) take either a lot of time or a lot of money to acquire. If you're not a big spender (or running push accounts to beef up your AWs), it'll be a long while before you have the problems you hear about - if ever.

As a benchmark for you, I've been playing almost 3 years. I'm a steady tourney player in a strong tourney group, but even with that kp source most of my AWs are at lvl16 or lower, with a couple of outliers in the 20s. I've bought premium expansions with spire winnings and wishing wells, but not even half of them yet. I top the spire every week and average 7500ish in the tourney. I'm at the end of ch17 and haven't especially optimized my city for the new system (though I am holding back a couple of expansions, and I might soon axe my Pyramid AW). In fact, sections of it are intentionally and woefully inefficient, because they're pretty. I'm content with that. YMMV, obviously...I just wanted to give you some numbers to see that you are probably years away from being unable to do "well" in the tourney, and I don't think it'll ever be a problem if you're happy at more typical/average tourney points. You (probably) don't need to over-stress about managing your city to a formula. Now if you want to be #1, or even consistently in the top 10... disregard everything I just said. :)

One thing I have always done is be very thoughtful about the AWs I put out. They take a lot of resources (space and kp) and there are a LOT of them. Unless you calculate that something is actually saving you space (ask @SoggyShorts about that, it's his specialty) think very hard before you commit to having it. I'll let others comment on which ones are best. :)

omg ~ I could not find the "LOVE!!!" button, so I just clicked "like" - apologies for the under-rating!
It is so nice to hear some balance here, and a stong "play the way YOU want to" encouragement. Thank you for your thoughtful and well written response. (as usual) :)
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
I dunno...I've heard a lot of comments along the lines of "I used to [insert specific complaint] every week, and now I can't." I think michmarc is right that a lot of the outrage, at least initially, was from players who felt a big difference between the old and new systems.
For sure, but once the initial shock wore off and players actually examined the issue the real problem was discovered.

Of course there are those who are so far on the wrong side of the formula due to being big diamond spenders, that some of those are still focused on the symptom, which is their results, and not the underlying illness which is the formula.

If everyone had taken the same hit (enemy squad size changes so that you aren't facing 85% in province #60 round 1) that would have been fine.
But when you have a chapter 15 player who was #40 and an identical chapter 17 city that was #5 and they switch places because of a formula change, well the focus might be on "I used to be able to X" but that isn't the real problem, it's the formula that punishes progress.
 
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Sprite1313

Well-Known Member
I dunno...I've heard a lot of comments along the lines of "I used to [insert specific complaint] every week, and now I can't." I think michmarc is right that a lot of the outrage, at least initially, was from players who felt a big difference between the old and new systems.
I agree that this is part of what has upset players. And, like you, I certainly haven't done a detailed analysis of posts or conversations I've had with players who have quit. But my sense is that more people feel betrayed by the sudden change in priorities Inno implemented; players were being penalized for doing what Inno said they were supposed to do. It's like Inno started this as a bike race, and then decided to make the game aquatic polo - but we still have to use our bicycles - we are just peddling under water.

I started the game not long before the tournament changes, so I barely experienced the old style tourney. I certainly don't like that I feel I have to be so selective in choosing the AWs I will place, or placing expansions if I don't want to get killed in tourney and spire. True, that creates a minigame on its own (what is the minimum number of expansions I need to have to be able to get through the next chapter?), but I shouldn't have to spend so much time debating whether or not an AW is worth the increased pain in tourney and spire. I bought some premium expansion early in game (yes, I'm one of those evil people who puts money into the game, since this is my entertainment), but stopped buying them as soon as the formula changed. I am now sitting on 16 research and province expansion I could place, because I avoid placing an expansion unless it is absolutely necessary. If I want to do well in tourney, I may need to forego some fun and beautiful buildings because I don't have space for both them and my guest race buildings. That isn't because I couldn't have the space, its because that space isn't worth the pain.

There are a lot of things to love in this game; and Inno continues to make improvements (I know some will disagree with me on that), but this is one instance where they need to go back to the drawing board and adjust their formula. Why shouldn't a player with more wonders and more technology be able to beat a player with almost none? Isn't that the point of advancing in the game? How is that unfair?
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Since this is deeply buried back in the early posts from when the tournament changes started on Beta, Inno basically said they meant for it to become harder to get more than 5000 points in a tournament. And that was obviously aimed at the big, powerful cities regularly doing 2 or 3 times that much every week. And this is why the end chapters do not get easier for those same cities. But the same changes made the tournament easier for anyone who does not care about getting more than 2000 points, no matter how advanced the city. Someone wants to just do their part for 10 chests? Easy. Someone wants to push way beyond 5000? Very difficult without a large number of the troop boosts. And a Fire Phoenix and a Brown Bear and lots of supply and time instants to replace troops. And then there is the ridiculous amounts of goods a high-end catering city would burn through in a week.

TLDR: if all you want is about 2000 points weekly, power your city up as much as you want because it won't hurt. If you want a lot more, something will have to be sacrificed.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
agree that this is part of what has upset players. And, like you, I certainly haven't done a detailed analysis of posts or conversations I've had with players who have quit. But my sense is that more people feel betrayed by the sudden change in priorities Inno implemented; players were being penalized for doing what Inno said they were supposed to do.
I have spoken extensively with top players about the issue, both those who quit and the hold-outs.
While it does appear at first that the complaint is about being able to do less than before, that's not the real issue.
sadly the forums were flooded with the complaint focused on the symptom, not the cause.

Even the very top players who loved the tournament would have been fine with +100% increased costs, +100% troop losses, or +100% difficulty scaling, none of those ruin the competition nor the incentive for progress.
Inno basically said they meant for it to become harder to get more than 5000 points in a tournament. ..... Someone wants to push way beyond 5000? Very difficult without a large number of the troop boosts.
But again, this would be fine if it didn't punish progress.
Make it hard to get 5,000? fine
Make it very hard to get 8,000? fine
Make it crazy hard to get 10,000? also fine.
BUT
Making it so that completing the next chapter reduces your ability by 20%? not fine.
Making it so that the most powerful city possible is one in chapter 15? not fine.
 
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SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
@SoggyShorts How would someone go about combating these issues exactly?
Personally or inno?
You personally can either ignore the top end of the tournament or play within the formula constraints by being very selective with wonders and not placing expansions. Stopping progress after unlocking 3-star frogs in chapter 15 or going 1 tech into 16 and then stopping also works.

Inno could have a real look at the late chapters and instead of increasing troops costs by XX% and production by less, they can ensure that as you complete chapters your troop production surpasses your cost increases (as promised)
 

CrusaderMichael

Active Member
OP, I personally don't care about success this way though I think i may regret my "get all wonders and level them to at least level 2" desire, when I'm in the later chapters (i'm only Ch 5 right now). I like to fight and I get the feeling people who spread themselves so thin as i am awKP wise are kinda shooting themselves in the foot in the long run but again... i'm ok with it for now.

Hopefully by late game they redo their "inflict pain on players" equations, and things will go easier on me.

A lot of talk about 'going in to later chapters is bad' to some players because of how certain aspects of the game get harder, but hopefully there's something great about finishing such end game chapters that makes it worth the extra pain. If not, i have a feeling the devs will relent and make things easier (or end chapters more rewarding).

Can't really see why they wouldn't if all these gloom and doom end chapter talkers are speaking truth and not just being negative nancys, which sadly some of them are prone to do.
 
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