How to start a wonder society spreadsheet?

[SoggyShorts]

It also looks like the net zero fails to perform "fairly" if a neighbor decides to donate and boots someone off a chest. Though that is rare it does happen.

Since all chests are taken by FS members at full price it is impossible for an outsider to grab a chest at a profit. If they do say put in 11 KP to get the 10 KP chest because they want the runes or something it isn't that hard to pay out your FS members to make sure that they net-zero again.

OK, so if there is a chest that cost 45KP, my options are:
- Put 45KP into someone else's AW, which will net me 45KP back eventually, and then drop those into my own AW
- Put 45KP into my own wonder directly (don't take other people's chests, but post in the thread)

Sounds like option 1 nets the same result with more delay and hassle (probably not much, but still). My own AW chests get fully filled regardless, by someone else.

Yeah, basically. I mean with WS you have a few hundred KP tied up in others' wonders at all times too. Take the average chest at around 20KP, and even with 24 other FS members you have under 500 KP tied up, and you just keep that 500 on rotation: someone's wonder finishes and you get 20 KP reward- just dump it in their next wonder to get another 20 KP chest.
Really the only reason to not take your FS members chests is that you don't want to tie up a little KP in the system, but really do many players run their stash of KP instants down to zero every week, or do most advanced players have a few hundred in the bank? *** Legit question because I have kept at least 500 KP in my stash pretty much since they were invented, but other advanced players might not.

What you get for tying up some KP:

• 20% discount on all of your own wonder upgrades
• >99% chest retention in your FS
• Simple single message thread
• Most importantly (for me) Unlimited control over donations since it's your own wonder.

What happens if you have 144 KP at the end of your last tournament round while tech-locked?

Wonder Society:

1. Check a thread to see which wonder is up. Oops, top wonder is full.
2. Open thread again because you didn't memorize the list,
3. Open next wonder- nope, that's full too.
4. Check a backup, ok, that one needs 100 KP but has 3 open chests. Dump 70, and
5. Check the next backup.
6. Sweet that's empty, dump remaining KP.

Not terrible, but kinda sloppy.

KP swap

1. open thread #1 post "20 KP to my ToS please ", open dave's BTG, dump 20 KP
2. open thread #2 post "40 KP to my ToS, please", open steve's GA, dump 40 KP
3. open thread #3 ...
4. open thread #4 ...
5. Got 14 KP left. Dump into side deal buddies wonder I guess?

ROI is somewhere between 0% and whoknows.
Ugh.

Net-Zero

1. Open your own ToS, dump all 144 KP. Done.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Really the only reason to not take your FS members chests is that you don't want to tie up a little KP in the system, but really do many players run their stash of KP instants down to zero every week, or do most advanced players have a few hundred in the bank? *** Legit question because I have kept at least 500 KP in my stash pretty much since they were invented, but other advanced players might not.

Depends I guess. Up until a couple of months ago I'd be running AWKPs to empty pretty much all the time. Now, I sit on a few thousands worth of AWKPs. Mostly because I am waiting longer for better deals in KP swap threads, but realistically, because I don't need to rapidly upgrade anything since my TimeWarp is sufficiently high.

Got 14 KP left. Dump into side deal buddies wonder I guess?
ROI is somewhere between 0% and whoknows.

As someone who routinely does the whole tournament in one day, I get 300+KPs during a short span of time on a weekly basis. This is rarely an issue though. Our full threads capacity is 130KP and turnover is pretty good, so quite often I can dump the whole amount right in there. But if the posted deals are not great, then I'd do direct swaps with someone else in the FS, usually on an empty AW (next to be upgraded), so both of us can get a headstart there.

 

[Mykan]

Wonder Society:

1. Check a thread to see which wonder is up. Oops, top wonder is full.
2. Open thread again because you didn't memorize the list,
3. Open next wonder- nope, that's full too.
4. Check a backup, ok, that one needs 100 KP but has 3 open chests. Dump 70, and
5. Check the next backup.
6. Sweet that's empty, dump remaining KP.

Not terrible, but kinda sloppy.

Net-Zero

1. Open your own ToS, dump all 144 KP. Done.

While that can happen its also not accurate either. as just as easily you can:

Wonder Society:

1. Check a thread to see which wonder is up
2. Dump all 144 KP

I find with more established societies this is the more likely scenario

Net-Zero

1. Open your own ToS, dump some kp, oops not all chests taken
2. Post msg for people to grab last chests
3. Either drop remaining kp in another wonder or save for ToS chests to be taken
4. Check back a couple hours later, oops chests still not taken
5. Message fellowship again
6. Check back an hour later, still not taken
7. Get impatient and finish wonder yourself.

No system is perfect for everyone, everyone has to figure out the style that works for them which is typically determined by their priorities. There are strengths of the different methods and a persons priorities will determine those, couple simple examples:
You want to see immediate KP in your wonder - Net-Zero/self level or endless swaps are your best bet
You want fairness - society or net-zero/self level are your best bets
You want a shot at rewards - society and endless swaps are your best bets. (Note Net-zero/self level relies on others doing the same so is not dependent on your own choice of levelling but theirs)

There is a lot more in terms of priorities and benefits than those listed above. The boxes a method ticks for you the better. Similarly people will have negative priorities to avoid and want a method that minimises ticking those boxes.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Wonder Society:

1. Check a thread to see which wonder is up
2. Dump all 144 KP

I find with more established societies this is the more likely scenario

Yeah, usually, but that 144 scenario wasn't make-believe, it happened to me yesterday and irked me. With over 3,000 wonders upgraded I'd say it's a rather established WS too

Net-Zero

1. Open your own ToS, dump some kp, oops not all chests taken

This isn't really possible. You ask people to claim all chests before you even start working on the wonder. You can even do it when you have 1-200 left on the previous wonder. It would take terrible planning and 4-500 surprise KP in your bar for you to get stuck like this.
Even if you did happen to somehow get into this situation, you could simply dump the KP into another wonder you are planning to level and announce chests for both.

No system is perfect for everyone

This is true. Tying up KP is the main downside for Net-Zero aside from the fairly significant requirement of active & advanced players. i.e. it probably doesn't work at all in a half FS with casuals.
WS is easily my second favorite, but after recording 1,000s of wonders over the years it's become rather tedious. My mistake was not investing the time into building an app for it instead-- would have taken less time to develop one and that includes the schooling I would need lol.

 

[Ashrem]

It also looks like the net zero fails to perform "fairly" if a neighbor decides to donate and boots someone off a chest. Though that is rare it does happen.

Whether it fails to perform depends how you handle it. If you agree that anyone who gets booted will get KP back from the person who's AW it is, proportionate to the difference between their deposit and return (above what they would have required to get the top chest), it remains effectively net zero.

 

[mucksterme]

Not sure how that sentence was going to end, but it should be pointed out that regular swap threads do not distribute chest rewards evenly or fairly unless by random chance.
A Wonder Society can be made to do so, and a Net-Zero Swap guarantees it.

Not sure how that got cut off but I think it was supposed to read something like
"
this works out as an advantage to the fs because it spreads the bonus chests around
and there are no losers because even if you donate bu .... but get no chest you still break even by people donating to you."

As for being easier. My comment was in reference to the people who set up the system. It is much easier to just set up a xxKP thread.
And I think all the questions and discussion here shows how hard it can be to explain the society option.

One other note: I wouldn't want to be in an FS using the society method that has a rule saying something like "You cannot upgrade your AW until the donations are verified by a mage."
If my AW is ready to go at 2:00AM I don't want to wait until some sluggard gets out of bed at 9:00am. Especially since I'll probably be asleep by then and my AW may not start upgrading till noon.

 

[SoggyShorts]

One other note: I wouldn't want to be in an FS using the society method that has a rule saying something like "You cannot upgrade your AW until the donations are verified by a mage."
If my AW is ready to go at 2:00AM I don't want to wait until some sluggard gets out of bed at 9:00am. Especially since I'll probably be asleep by then and my AW may not start upgrading till noon.

Would you be willing to do the recording then? I mean starting the upgrade before it's recorded would be like deleting the swap thread messages from everyone's mailboxes.
Of course, Net-Zero doesn't have this problem either.

 

[mucksterme]

Would you be willing to do the recording then?

i think i'm on record of just liking good old fashioned swap threads where the biggest problem is two people post at the same time
which is easily fixed

but you know what
whatever system each FS likes is fine
they all help spread the wealth
and if Inno keeps screwing around we might all just sell off our AWs anyway
and then deciding we don't like the game anymore