Hypothetical: Is it better to start over, or have been playing since day 1? (squad sizes)

[DeletedUser8382]

So, lets say you have a day 1 account, and have done super well, perhaps even spending a ton of diamonds. You have, although, researched all of the squad size increases. Lets call this city "Battlemax" You start a new world, which we call, "PacifyMax" and play it for 4 months (expertly). But now you have less time and must abandon one, so which do you abandon? Well lets look at the numbers...

First, this lets us know that it takes +139% Battlemax more resources than PacifyMax.

Squad Size = N * (N + 1) * 1.5 + 6, where N is the number of researched SS upgrades
I'm surprised that Inno did not publish such information.The research of these upgrades does not give anything useful increasing requirements in troops and resources for tourneys

For a long run research these technologies for disadvantage of yourself only. This is a huge imbalance in tournaments.

If you do not research all 14 optional upgrades # 3,5,9,13,15,17,20,22,25,26,28,30,32,39 then the difference is 2346 (39 squad size upgrades) / 981 (25 squad size upgrades) = 2.39 !!! times the bigger needs in your troops and the enemy squad sizes and catering cost are proportionally.

The difference between those who from the dwarves chapter (from upgrade #17) did not research any optional SS upgrades and who researched all of them
2346 / 1401 = 1,67.

It's unclear for me how these upgrades in Inno's view are related to increased production of resources.

Well, if hypothetically, Battlemax has every battle AW maxed, they are getting:

34% more damage on 4 of 5 units (Light melee has no boost) and 25.5% more unit health. But lets be generous and round that all up to 134%. Each unit is worth 1.34x more.

That's 134% to 239%.... Battlemax is a loser by a massive margin.

Lets look at Goods, now:

Battlemax produces 700% goods (relics) + 236% (lvl 25 mountain halls) for a total of 936%. Pacifymax produces 700% good (they did tournaments, and yes, it is possible to hit 700% in 4 months, that's about 10 tournament provinces with the first being completed fully, and the last few only being 1 star...)

So Battlemax is at 134% goods to PacifyMax's 100% goods. Again that margin is far too massive than 239% to 100%.

IN ADDITION to all of this, there isn't much of an advantage to going up in ages in terms of tournaments. In age 2, you can get to 1.2 million gold capacity. That's enough Gold to get the prerequisite expansion for ORCS (160 provinces). In other words, you could be a level 2 town, with 20 tournament provinces, 700% goods production, and super easy battles/cater.

In other words, have you wasted all your time on a town that has squad size increase researches? Yes.

This knowledge really pushes me towards quitting this game. I don't want to, but the alternatives of continuing to play my gimped town I've spent 9 months on, or starting fresh, are both depressing.

 

[SoggyShorts]

But having 2.39x the squad size for clearing enemies on the world map has to count for something.

Personally I want them to
1. reduce tournament sizes a little bit
2. either make all SS tech mandatory or make the game think you unlocked them even if you haven't

So I can unlock all of those techs and start kicking butt on the map without a huge loss to how much I can do in the tournament.

 

[DeletedUser8382]

But having 2.39x the squad size for clearing enemies on the world map has to count for something.

Personally I want them to
1. reduce tournament sizes a little bit
2. either make all SS tech mandatory or make the game think you unlocked them even if you haven't

So I can unlock all of those techs and start kicking butt on the map without a huge loss to how much I can do in the tournament.

Not in the grand scheme of things. You save a little bit of negotiation resources for one time events in exchange for a permanent cost increases in weekly tournaments. Doing well in tournaments every week gets you much further ahead (because of the 75kp, spells, relics, and the Blueprint) than being able to get a little further in the world map.

I agree, squad size stuff *SHOULD* work and *SHOULD BE* balanced. But even if they fix it so that the tournaments are based off your highest tech researched, that still doesn't fix an age 2 town finishing 20 tournament Provinces.

 

[SoggyShorts]

You save a little bit of negotiation resources for one time events in exchange for a permanent cost increases in weekly tournaments. Doing well in tournaments every week gets you much further ahead (because of the 75kp, spells, relics, and the Blueprint) than being able to get a little further in the world map.

Most people don't get all of the tournament rewards, and many have scouts under 24h, so that's a map province per day. I'm not saying it's balanced(it isn't) but it's also not as one sided as it looks either.

even if they fix it so that the tournaments are based off your highest tech researched, that still doesn't fix an age 2 town finishing 20 tournament Provinces.

I'm not sure why this matters tbh. What's the point? First it's not cheap to scout and clear 180 provinces(which you'd need to have 20 of each available for tournaments) especially missing all of the advanced scouts techs. Also what are they doing with all of that KP, if not putting it in techs? The only reason I can think of to do this is as a push account which is against the rules. Obviously not deleting push accounts is a problem, but that's a separate issue.

 

[DeletedUser3696]

Are you not factoring in the extra expansions you can have from battlemax? By overscouting I think I have 15 or 20 more expansions than those who go the pacify route. So I can build more factories, residences and have more room for guest race buildings. This counters the higher negotiating/catering costs.

I am also ahead on total kp by virtue of doing more provinces.

I'll admit I don't go hog wild in tournaments as I'd have to train for 2+ weeks just to get top 100 ranking and if I really wanted a high ranking I'd have to train for closer to 4 weeks to regain troops. I've never looked at catering in tournaments as an option to get into the top 100.
As for battling those provinces, I just pure negotiate now and hardly notice a dip in my resources (that's with only 4/4/4).

I'll stick with my gameplay vs. starting over and I'd stick with my gameplay vs a city that was just at 250 conquered (I currently am at 410)

 

[SoggyShorts]

To the original question:
Even though tournaments are twice as expensive for you, starting a new city and skipping all of the techs would still take over a year to catch up to the 9 month old city if it kept playing as well. Actually it might not ever catch up since scout times are pretty much fixed and expansions totally trump cheap tournaments.
@TSmack
How long do scouts take? I'm curious how far away the last expansion is for you (the wiki chart only goes to 457 cleared provinces) 6 months at an average of 90h would get you there as far as I can guesstimate.

 

[DeletedUser8382]

Most people don't get all of the tournament rewards, and many have scouts under 24h, so that's a map province per day. I'm not saying it's balanced(it isn't) but it's also not as one sided as it looks either.

Looking at my Dwarf Town (my main city at 9 months), it costs about an average of 1k each of T1, T2, T3 goods to negotiate one province node. Currently, my cheapest tournament is Province 3, star 4, and requires about 1200 T1, 600 T2, and 400 T3. I only earned 1100 points this tournament, and if your goal is about 1800 (enough for 1/24th of a 10 chest fellowship, room for 1 slacker), your looking at a TON more resources each week.

'm not sure why this matters tbh. What's the point? First it's not cheap to scout and clear 180 provinces(which you'd need to have 20 of each available for tournaments) especially missing all of the advanced scouts techs. Also what are they doing with all of that KP, if not putting it in techs? The only reason I can think of to do this is as a push account which is against the rules. Obviously not deleting push accounts is a problem, but that's a separate issue.

You get Golden Abyss, the most popular AW to level to very high levels, at Age 2. I actually thought about this angle before you mentioned it, myself. You could also build up quite a supply of BPs. Another "thought" would be to have a dual world Fellowship. On world 1, half the people are age 2, and the others level normally. On World 2, people swap positions. The age 2 people boost those tournament points to very high levels, and both sides profit, fully.

Are you not factoring in the extra expansions you can have from battlemax? By overscouting I think I have 15 or 20 more expansions than those who go the pacify route. So I can build more factories, residences and have more room for guest race buildings. This counters the higher negotiating/catering costs.

The further you get, the more and more provinces it takes to get an extra expansion (10+). There are 42 KP tree expansions, 6 starting, and 60 expansions at 457 provinces. So, lets take my dwarf age town. I'd have 23 mandatory expansions, 26 KP tree expansions, 6 starting for 55 expansions. If you are 50!! provinces ahead of me, you only have 6 extra expansions, just a little over 10% more.

I am also ahead on total kp by virtue of doing more provinces.

Lets say you're in a 5 chest FS, getting 15 KP a week. My hypothetical age 2 FS is getting 75 a week. I'm getting 60 extra a week. If you're 50!! provinces ahead, (400 KP), I will pass you in 6.7 weeks.

I'll stick with my gameplay vs. starting over and I'd stick with my gameplay vs a city that was just at 250 conquered (I currently am at 410)

None of us want to start over, I'm more drawing attention to the huge imbalance present in the game.

I am kind of interested in finding people wanting to participate in my "Age 2 Fellowship" experiment, though. Since you mostly just hit the cater button, it goes surprisingly fast (I've actually leveled a town to age 4 now without even building the barracks or magic academy as part of this experiment). Even doing the full day's tournaments only takes a few minutes.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@Blockus
I think a FS where big players feed small/medium players goods for the tournament would do better than age 2 players. Coins and supplies can't be traded so it could be very difficult for a chapter 2 player to cater 8 full provinces.

 

[DeletedUser8382]

@Blockus
I think a FS where big players feed small/medium players goods for the tournament would do better than age 2 players. Coins and supplies can't be traded so it could be very difficult for a chapter 2 player to cater 8 full provinces.

I was saying Age 2 because it seems the earliest it might be possible. However, if Age 2 doesn't work, Age 3 is the latest you'd need to go. Endless Excavation gives supply % every 24 hours, and Golden Abyss gives gold % every 3 hours, and if you're sitting at htose ages leveling those two buildings, you could get very far.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I dunno, if given the choice between a city that has played fast for a year and a chapter 2-3 city with level 25 GA and EE I'd still pick the 1 year city. Progress is what makes the game fun for me, and just seeing higher numbers on a couple wonders wouldn't be enough.

 

[Mykan]

You have to consider something else as well and that is would the developers see this as an exploit of an existing game mechanic and eventually change it? I think the answer is yes, the question is how long until it happens and the longer they take the larger the outcry.

I don't have a problem with exploiting a game mechanic like this but just be clear that if you base a strategy on it that you are clear on what your doing and understand the risk is that mechanic changing at some unknown point in time.

 

[DeletedUser3507]

By no means would I want to start over, being finished at end of research tree is quite nice.
Does starting over have its advantages yes. But to have to do it all over again yikes..I

I bought my expansions when they were still 2k diamonds, now Inno gouges the heck out of you for them. and you get less of them.

 

[DeletedUser7370]

Looking at my Dwarf Town (my main city at 9 months), it costs about an average of 1k each of T1, T2, T3 goods to negotiate one province node. Currently, my cheapest tournament is Province 3, star 4, and requires about 1200 T1, 600 T2, and 400 T3. I only earned 1100 points this tournament, and if your goal is about 1800 (enough for 1/24th of a 10 chest fellowship, room for 1 slacker), your looking at a TON more resources each week.

I just did a little over 1800 in the tournament. I catered 1 encounter because my military was low and I did not want to wait 10 minutes to finish that province; all the rest was done with the military. For tournaments the military is always the cheaper choice. My city is currently at the early stages of orcs, and I did not start skipping SS techs until fairies. So I have only skipped a few.

This isn't the first time that I did 1800 either, and 1500-1600 is my current normal. I think once I get my barracks upgraded to max orc level and level needles and monastery a little more that I will be able to do 1800 or better every week with ease. Sadly the rest of my fellowship is not quite as aggressive with the tournaments.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@Blockus
I thought of a flaw in the age2/3 concept. While they may do better in tournaments and get more KP from them there is something they will be far worse at. Buying KP. A city progressing normally continues to produce more and more coins and goods and can buy a handful of KP every day. Even though the costs increase with each KP bought, a steadily progressing city will increase production faster than costs.

 

[DeletedUser3696]

@TSmack
How long do scouts take? I'm curious how far away the last expansion is for you (the wiki chart only goes to 457 cleared provinces) 6 months at an average of 90h would get you there as far as I can guesstimate.

Currently at 57 hours per scout and I think each successive adds between 30-60minutes. I try my best to non-stop scout but sometimes have like 1/2 a day go by with not logging on.