In with the new troop types opinions

[DeletedUser2963]

The updates keep bringing us new buildings and new troop types. Opening this thread to hear player thoughts on the new units.


For me, my interest in the new troop type is directly proportionate to how badly that troop type hits me in battle. If I HATE seeing the troop type in the enemy squads, I want it!!!!!

The dogs, those nasty dogs! I hated them, now I have them and I love. They get across screen in two rounds, and just chew through the mages and cannoneers.

My next favorite love/hate is with the rangers. I dont have them yet but I really want them. The first time I went up against them, I was not ready for the strike back. They hurt me, bad. I want them!!!! With their initiative and strike back, they are the perfect mage killers.

Gotta say I have no interest in the drone rider or the little bug mages. Those things die if you breath on them hard.

What about you? thoughts, favorites? @kayleegrrl spoiler info from beta?

 

[DeletedUser4778]

I have yet to see the mist walker but, based on its stats alone, it's a killer. If you love/hate the ranger, the mist walker is the ranger on steroids with significantly better hp & damage and a higher initiative, albeit lesser bonuses vs. mages and heavy melee. Would love to hear feedback from the advanced players who have encountered it.

 

[DeletedUser3297]

The Dryad is now the most powerful light-ranged unit. But it's defenses are the weakest so you want to keep it out of enemy range for sure.

The Ranger has a movement of 4 and special ability of strikeback, what I like about this unit is it has superior range and the strikeback more than makes up the difference for it being slightly less powerful. This is my fav light-ranged unit.

The the Elite Archers have become obsolete in my opinion especially since we get the Dryad very early on.

The Orc warrior is more powerful than the Treant, but it is slightly weaker in defense.

 

[DeletedUser3696]

I would imagine they are all good the earlier you are in the game, but if you have fully upgraded all your native troops then none of the new troops are strong enough to counter that.
This is with the cerberus as the lone exception, since as a human player I have sinister cerberus. Those have 21-25 damage and 101 hp with 7 movement, laceration and strikeback 3.

Orc Warrior with only size 2 seems pretty good at first but compared to blessed paladin I don't think it's that close.
167-225 damage, 735 hp, strike back, pierced armour and 2 range vs.
138-210 damage, 777 hp, strike back and only 1 range (this is for 3 OW's, which is what would replace 1 BP)

Drone Rider vs Storm Barbarian
36-44 dam, 177 hp, strikeback and 4 mvt
48-60 dam, 224hp, strikeback, charged strike and 3 mvt (this is for 2 barbs)

Ranger vs. Master Crossbowmen
8-14 dam, 49 hp, strikeback and 4 mvt with 4 range
14-18 dam, 75hp, numb shot and 3 mvt with 4 range

Blossom Mage vs. Sacred Priest
51-85 dam, 130 hp, blossom winds, 5 range with 2 mvt (adjusted to match the priests size of 4)
58-96 dam, 198 hp, divine curse, divine interruption, 5 range with 2 mvt

I don't see any of these new units being useful in the slightest for those already in chapter 9, however I'm up to anyone saying otherwise with a good argument

 

[Thistleknot]

Nice work TSmack.

In general, the new units are weaker than their counterparts due to the level difference. A Bud Sorceress (level 3) is more powerful than the Blossom Mage (level 1). But there are battles where the extra range is important and I will use the Blossom Mage.

From the Elven point of view:

I like the Blossom Mage, but I'm waiting on the upgrade to make it more on par with my Bud Sorceress.

The Drone Rider is still weak compared to my Sword Acrobat. I thought the Drone Rider was supposed to be able to fly over obstacles. I guess that never got worked out. Also, thanks to the Dwarven Bulwark, I have an unlimited supply of Sword Acrobats.

I have the Cerberus up to Sinister Cerberus. These guys rock the battlefield. If I need light melee, I'm going with these guys. Speed, strike back of 3, and tough enough to destroy mages in a single bite make them wonderful.

I just researched the Orc Warrior. He needs an upgrade before I will use him over my Elder Treant.

I am curious about the Ranger, but that is a little ways off.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

Not that I've used any of these units (because I either don't have the building, am far from getting to the chapter when I can build the building, or am playing an elf) but, after my Unit vs. Unit study which I detailed in my Battle Sheet, I would have to say the following based on damage alone (discounting other factors such as initiative, movement, and strikeback):

Drone Rider: Best choice vs. Mage, also vs. a combo of Light Range & Mage
Priest: Best choice vs. Heavy Melee, also vs. a combo Heavy Melee & Heavy Range
Treant / Paladin / Orc Warrior: Best choice vs. Heavy Range, also vs. a combo of Heavy Range & Light Melee
Golem: Best choice vs. a combo of Light Melee & Light Range
etc (see link below for more details)

@Thistleknot , I'm interested in your comment that the Drone Rider is weak compared to the Sword Acrobat because the damage, hp, and special ability bonuses, movement, and initiative of all Drone Rider versions are actually better. Can you enlighten me?

The Ranger is weaker than the other range units (except the Crossbowman although the highest version of the Crossbowman outdoes it in damage by 1 measly point) in terms of damage and hp which, I suppose, is their way of balancing it due to its higher initiative and movement.

The light range unit that I am interested in is the Mist Walker because it has the highest initiative that I've seen so far, the best hp out of all light range units, high bonuses vs. mages (the same as the Ranger's although it's weaker against heavy melee), and has a strikeback.

To be honest, I feel that the Drone Rider and Mist Walker's stats are overpowered and, to use Inno terminology, "unbalanced" compared to other troops. These units don't follow the pattern of balancing strengths and weaknesses that I've seen in other units but I suppose I shouldn't expect logical consistency from the makers.

The Banshee, on the other hand, looks weak to me. It is, however, a very specialized unit and I suppose it'll come in handy vs. heavy range but I'm honestly tired of seeing variations on the same theme.

I've noticed that the new units they've been introducing are mostly reversals of the normal bonuses of that unit type. Here are my generalizations:

LIGHT MELEE usually have better bonuses against mages than light range but the Drone Rider is better against light range than mages.

LIGHT RANGE usually have better bonuses against heavy melee than mages but the reverse is true for the Dryad.

MAGES, i.e., Priests, Sorceresses, and Banshees have better bonuses against heavy range than heavy melee but the reverse is true for the Blossom Mage.

HEAVY MELEE are usually better against against heavy range than light melee but the reverse is true for the Orc Warrior which makes me wonder which category the new mercenary camp unit will fall under because, at this point, I'd like an even split of two who are better against one enemy type and two better against the other instead of the current three-to-one and one-to-three ratio.

Two HEAVY RANGE, i.e., mortars and orc strategists are better against light range than light melee. It's the reverse for golems.

All in all, I must say that the results of my comparison didn't impress me. I feel that the new units lack imagination and INNOvation and confirms what I said in some other thread about generally disliking the new plethora of units considering the extra buildings they need to be trained in which takes up more space in an increasingly claustrophobia-inducing "city". I wish they'd just made prestige class versions of existing units since the new ones are just variations on the same theme anyway.

(Off-topic but, on a happier note, it looks like the Flurry event is fun based on what I've read so at least I have something to look forward to.)

 

[Thistleknot]

@Thistleknot , I'm interested in your comment that the Drone Rider is weak compared to the Sword Acrobat because the damage, hp, and special ability bonuses, movement, and initiative of all Drone Rider versions are actually better. Can you enlighten me?

Here's my theory. On paper, the Drone Rider looks better than the Sword Acrobat. That only works on a one-to-one basis though. Factor in squad size and additional bonuses, the Sword Acrobat out does the Drone Rider.

As a unit:
Drone Rider (Dam 36-44, HP 176, Size 2, Range 1, Move 4, Init 12, Strikeback, LR +40% dam to/-30% dam from, Mage +20% dam to)
Sword Acrobat (Dam 23-28, HP 117, Size 1, Range 1, Move 3, Init 11, Strikeback, Disarming Dance, LR +30% dam to/-40% dam from, Mage +30% dam to/-40% dam from)

As a squad:
Drone Rider (Dam 22,032-26,928, HP 107,712, Size 612, Range 1, Move 4, Init 12, Strikeback, LR +40% dam to/-30% dam from, Mage +20% dam to)
Sword Acrobat (Dam 28,152-34,272, HP 143,208, Size 1224, Range 1, Move 3, Init 11, Strikeback, Disarming Dance, LR +30% dam to/-40% dam from, Mage +30% dam to/-40% dam from)

Note: Disarming Dance does -30% attack for 2 rounds

On a squad level, you get more hit points and more damage potential. You get better overall bonus against light range and mage units. Plus the Disarming Dance. All these factors make the Sword Acrobat better than the Drone Rider.

Now I also believe that if the Drone Rider gets upgraded one level, that it will at the very least be equal to the Sword Acrobat if not a little better.

the extra buildings they need to be trained in which takes up more space in an increasingly claustrophobia-inducing "city".

As far as this is concerned, my wife and I have the same view point about the extra buildings. We would not mind the extra buildings so much if you could train the units they produce at the same time that you train your other troops. In other words, if I am training Golems at the barracks, I should be able to train Blossom Mages at the Mercenary Camp and Sinister Cerberus at the Training Grounds at the same time. Otherwise all these buildings are just using up space that we are already having a hard time getting.

Also while I love the Sinister Cerberus, I actually liked the fact that the Humans and Elves had different units. I'm worried that we are getting too similar with the fighting now.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

That only works on a one-to-one basis though. Factor in squad size and additional bonuses, the Sword Acrobat out does the Drone Rider.

Ah, it's the weight. I overlooked that. So that's what they did to "balance" its high stats. I see now why your swords are better as a squad because numbers count. Thanks! I will now add weight and strikeback columns to my spreadsheets since not all unit types have the same weights now and some unexpected units now have strikebacks.

Also while I love the Sinister Cerberus, I actually liked the fact that the Humans and Elves had different units. I'm worried that we are getting too similar with the fighting now.

It's the same for me and also the reason why I'm on the fence about guest races because the buildings look a bit too similar to me although I suppose I'll learn to differentiate them as I go along and am now in my first guest race. My main beef with them is that I feel they were deliberately designed to slow us down by taking up space in our cities. I don't understand why we can't take train different units in different buildings especially with a name like Training Grounds. The only reason that comes to my mind is that Inno just wants to take up more of our city space and slow us down.

 

[Thistleknot]

I will now add weight and strikeback columns to my spreadsheets since not all unit types have the same weights now and some unexpected units now have strikebacks

The special abilities definitely make a difference in combat. Also look closely at the "Best Against" section. This can be a bit deceiving if you just look at the number of swords and not the actual verbiage.