DeletedUser5800
Guest
...and so begins the snowball... Don't do it in Elcy, that's where I live! Take that to some other world where I can ignore it. LOL
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Your Elvenar Team
Inno's dealing with push accounts needs drastic improvement discussion
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Yeah, iirc it's the Dutch server where it's basically become an arms race- dozens of players with 50+ push Alts each. @urvasandal was telling us about it.
On US servers it's really hard to get into the very top spots by playing legit, on Dutch it's more like the top 100.
DeletedUser5800
Guest
If I get knocked back into triple digits because @Reiq starts a snowball I'm going to have some posts about that!
[goes to download 20 browsers because logging in and out is for newbs]
shhhh don't give them ideas... Bad Draco.
DeletedUser3640
Guest
At least they have some clarity regarding rules.
Well, it's done.
I have so many ideas already. Definitely making FS for push accounts and naming it "Push It to the Limit".
DeletedUser3640
Guest
Thank you for sharing this with us. Didn't you ask "why" nothing was done? They confirmed breach of rules, logically to ask why there was no punishment or at least warning.
I'm dying, lol. But not yet, will keep you updated about how ticket thing goes.
Xelenia
Ex-Team Member
A friendly reminder to all posters.
Please review the rules of the forum before making initial posts, after making initial posts, and while responding to your fellow posters.
https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.702/#post-4558
Even more so, there is no discussing of in-game support tickets. I have attached a snip it of rule #13 for clarity.
~Xelenia
Ashrem
Oh Wise One
You only get one email after your last visit to the thread until the next. If you you don't go back to visit the thread, you won't get any more emails, or if you keep the page open and refresh several times a day, you won't get more emails.
DeletedUser13467
Guest
You're almost right. Almost
DeletedUser3686
Guest
Just some added insight as to why push accounts are not punished very often.
Inno is a German company, and in Germany, at times an IP address is considered to be "personal data." If someone at the top (rank wise) is pushing, there's a good chance that they're also spending money. This could make things rather messy in a court case. Of course someone who never pays might not have much of a leg to stand on since they're not losing anything of monetary value, but someone who does spend money on the game probably could. Seeing as I've seen some players mention spending thousands of dollars in a year on the game, yea that could be a mess.
Inno is a German company, and in Germany, at times an IP address is considered to be "personal data." If someone at the top (rank wise) is pushing, there's a good chance that they're also spending money. This could make things rather messy in a court case. Of course someone who never pays might not have much of a leg to stand on since they're not losing anything of monetary value, but someone who does spend money on the game probably could. Seeing as I've seen some players mention spending thousands of dollars in a year on the game, yea that could be a mess.
DeletedUser
Guest
@LadySansaStark
Yeah, we've already gone 'round and 'round about this. This thread is the second on this topic; the first one (which is closed now) ran for five months, and this has come up many, many times. Some of the players shouting about the issue of push accounts regard the claim of "personal data" as nothing more than a convenient excuse for Inno to "do nothing" about pushing. They'll never accept anything other than total enforcement of the rules.
Yeah, we've already gone 'round and 'round about this. This thread is the second on this topic; the first one (which is closed now) ran for five months, and this has come up many, many times. Some of the players shouting about the issue of push accounts regard the claim of "personal data" as nothing more than a convenient excuse for Inno to "do nothing" about pushing. They'll never accept anything other than total enforcement of the rules.
DeletedUser13467
Guest
Yes this battle has been fought and won, look at time stamps ~~~ Azkaban is right.
DeletedUser5543
Guest
One thing which is NOT being addressed is the fact that Inno wants it this way. Personally, I go all the way back to the 1st days of Apple Computers with programming and can tell you that for EVERYTHING in the game to happen it first must have the script written so it CAN be a possibility. Think of it as getting in your car then looking at a map to see how to get to where you want to go and to get ANYWHERE you first have to follow the already built road, and just as all roads lead to Rome since the Romans built most of the roads in Europe, all programming roads lead to Inno since they do all of the programming. It's impossible unless Inno makes it possible. Inno has created the programming roads and if Inno didn't want it this way then they can very simply change the script so that it's no longer possible to go there. Inno has not made any programming changes to stop "pushing" from happening. Quite the opposite. in fact.
I was first alerted to players having "feeder cities" (one's which ALL items go to a Main city) around 18 months ago. The player seemed to be doing it for the free goods. It seemed like a lot of effort for little reward and probably was. Then Inno introduced Ancient Wonders and then I realized that, ok, yes, having feeder cities certainly would help develop AW's. Then came the tournament which didn't help a player with feeder cities at all.......until they decided to change the tournament to operating on a curve (one which is MUCH easier and less costly for smaller cities) and then I realized, okay, it's a MASSIVE advantage to have feeder cities. Now players in Winyandor have an ENTIRE Fellowship full of feeder cities to go along with their Main one so they can collect ALL of the tourney rewards, including enormous amounts of kp to funnel into their Main city. Inno has made it EXTREMELY advantageous for the growth of your city if you do this. So, then it begs the question, what is Inno's level of culpability? It's one thing to give out free guns to anyone that wants one then say "don't shoot anybody" and claim that you've done your part to prevent violence but, from my reflection, most reasonable people would expect someone to get shot eventually and really wouldn't want any guns around in the first place. And we've obviously reached the point where people are using the illicit tools which Inno has provided, (as noted repeatedly, this isn't even the first THREAD on the subject) but Inno draws no recourse. Even without all of the comments on the Boards about it you would be foolish not to think that Inno doesn't monitor it's product closely like a laboratory technician watches over the mice as they run the mazes to examine and study their experiments. Just look at how Xelenia monitors these Boards like a hawk and you question whether the devs monitor their own game?? (By the way, you're doing a great job, Xelenia! Please don't erase this comment or thread!) So, they know all about the "pushing."
So WHY does Inno want it this way? While the first two paragraphs are indisputable, I admit to be speculating as to why... The first hypothesis I reach is that they feel it is more profitable to them. (Sadly, the answer usually is: money). Elvenar is the runt of the litter in Inno's stable of games. While other games like Grepolis and Forge of Empires are allotted revenue for television commercials among a media blitz, Elvenar is given none of this. I, myself, came here after playing another Inno game which I had seen an ad for and I'm glad I did because I enjoy this one exponentially more! Furthermore, those programs are largely static while Elvenar requires new script be drawn routinely for new Guest Races, etc... increasing the overall costs to Inno to maintain it. More costs = Less profits. Knowing that is the reality of the situation the next question it begs is whether or not INNO EMPLOYEES are involved in this? Are they among the cities doing this so that people will buy more diamonds to try to keep up with them? A few people have mentioned that they know people are "pushing" and it doesn't take away from the fun they are having here, a sentiment I wholeheartedly agree with. I'm not here to try and be "the best there ever was" even though I know others are, I'm just looking to enjoy myself. But that's entirely different then being THE DESIGNATED ILLEGITIMATE LOSER, isn't it? Show me someone that doesn't have a problem being the designated illegitimate loser and I'll show you a loser. I cannot encourage you enough, PLEASE do something about this, Inno, as people ROUTINELY come to me talking about this issue.... and I hate giving bad news.
I was first alerted to players having "feeder cities" (one's which ALL items go to a Main city) around 18 months ago. The player seemed to be doing it for the free goods. It seemed like a lot of effort for little reward and probably was. Then Inno introduced Ancient Wonders and then I realized that, ok, yes, having feeder cities certainly would help develop AW's. Then came the tournament which didn't help a player with feeder cities at all.......until they decided to change the tournament to operating on a curve (one which is MUCH easier and less costly for smaller cities) and then I realized, okay, it's a MASSIVE advantage to have feeder cities. Now players in Winyandor have an ENTIRE Fellowship full of feeder cities to go along with their Main one so they can collect ALL of the tourney rewards, including enormous amounts of kp to funnel into their Main city. Inno has made it EXTREMELY advantageous for the growth of your city if you do this. So, then it begs the question, what is Inno's level of culpability? It's one thing to give out free guns to anyone that wants one then say "don't shoot anybody" and claim that you've done your part to prevent violence but, from my reflection, most reasonable people would expect someone to get shot eventually and really wouldn't want any guns around in the first place. And we've obviously reached the point where people are using the illicit tools which Inno has provided, (as noted repeatedly, this isn't even the first THREAD on the subject) but Inno draws no recourse. Even without all of the comments on the Boards about it you would be foolish not to think that Inno doesn't monitor it's product closely like a laboratory technician watches over the mice as they run the mazes to examine and study their experiments. Just look at how Xelenia monitors these Boards like a hawk and you question whether the devs monitor their own game?? (By the way, you're doing a great job, Xelenia! Please don't erase this comment or thread!) So, they know all about the "pushing."
So WHY does Inno want it this way? While the first two paragraphs are indisputable, I admit to be speculating as to why... The first hypothesis I reach is that they feel it is more profitable to them. (Sadly, the answer usually is: money). Elvenar is the runt of the litter in Inno's stable of games. While other games like Grepolis and Forge of Empires are allotted revenue for television commercials among a media blitz, Elvenar is given none of this. I, myself, came here after playing another Inno game which I had seen an ad for and I'm glad I did because I enjoy this one exponentially more! Furthermore, those programs are largely static while Elvenar requires new script be drawn routinely for new Guest Races, etc... increasing the overall costs to Inno to maintain it. More costs = Less profits. Knowing that is the reality of the situation the next question it begs is whether or not INNO EMPLOYEES are involved in this? Are they among the cities doing this so that people will buy more diamonds to try to keep up with them? A few people have mentioned that they know people are "pushing" and it doesn't take away from the fun they are having here, a sentiment I wholeheartedly agree with. I'm not here to try and be "the best there ever was" even though I know others are, I'm just looking to enjoy myself. But that's entirely different then being THE DESIGNATED ILLEGITIMATE LOSER, isn't it? Show me someone that doesn't have a problem being the designated illegitimate loser and I'll show you a loser. I cannot encourage you enough, PLEASE do something about this, Inno, as people ROUTINELY come to me talking about this issue.... and I hate giving bad news.
Mykan
Oh Wise One
Sadly basically everything about that is disputable and some of the reasons against it has been said previously. The problem is complex and varied and we have no visibility of what is being done so even there we are guessing. Like many games this one has players who use several features of the game as intended and designed. But there are always some who find ways around the intention to use things as they are not designed. Sometimes those unexpected ways can be shut down easily and sometimes they can't without hurting the innocent players who are happily enjoying the game as it was intended.
Unless someone can come up with a method that blocks pushers and allows legitimate use of the existing game features without hurting normal players this problem is not going to end anytime soon. This is not even the second thread on this topic so no one yet has had the perfect solution so don't expect one anytime soon. Players have given suggestions but all the ones I have read so far would hurt other normal players in some manner. At the end of the day Inno has to weigh up the pros and cons and they have shown on more than one occasion they favour protecting the majority of players over a minority.
DeletedUser5543
Guest
[EDITED BY XELENIA] And yes, the 1st two paragraphs are indisputable as Inno both designed the possibility, despite your faulty assertion in your 4th sentence that they did not (unless, of course, you are claiming they were pirated by hackers) and Inno knows this is going on as YOU have suggested. If you had stated that Inno designed the issue but did not INTEND to, then PERHAPS you would be correct, but then, even in doing so, the faulty design would still be their creation and, hence, their responsibility. Additionally, I'm told Inno states in no uncertain terms that you are not to do any "pushing" which means they are aware that they have designed it this way and have taken the extra step of telling you not to in an attempt to dissuade others from utilizing the faulty design.
There are numerous ways in which they can rectify this issue and I'll be happy to list some when I have more time to write. But, as you have said, I don't feel that's the issue, though. These people are pretty bright, I feel, and the issue is clearly impetus more than anything else. Again, WHY they lack the impetus I don't know, but, speaking from someone that has observed them for over two years now making GREAT improvements to the platform, I am one million percent certain that if they want to eliminate the possibility of feeder cities then they will have no difficulty in doing so.
There are numerous ways in which they can rectify this issue and I'll be happy to list some when I have more time to write. But, as you have said, I don't feel that's the issue, though. These people are pretty bright, I feel, and the issue is clearly impetus more than anything else. Again, WHY they lack the impetus I don't know, but, speaking from someone that has observed them for over two years now making GREAT improvements to the platform, I am one million percent certain that if they want to eliminate the possibility of feeder cities then they will have no difficulty in doing so.
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Ashrem
Oh Wise One
Mykan is making reasonable statements. It is not indisputable that Inno wants pushing to happen, for a number of reasons. The fact that they tell us not to do it tells us only that they are aware that it is a possibility, not that they intended it to happen. The software is under active development, and features are being added and removed regularly. That one of those features is abusable does not mean they want it to be abusable, only that they haven't (yet) figured out how to make it not-abusable. As well to assert that because hardware stores sell crow-bars they intend people to carry them around at night smashing windows. Nobody here is omniscient, and exaggerations like "one million percent certain" don't actually change the fact that none of us has all the information about what Inno is doing or intends. You might be convinced you know what's happening ([..]), but that doesn't make it true.
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DeletedUser5543
Guest
[..]When I use the word "sadly" to describe how money is typically the common denominator you can be certain it does make me sad to travel everywhere on this little rock and routinely see that people value money more than self-respect. People will do anything for money and if I have to describe that to you than you are more oblivious than one could imagine. Why would Inno be any different and who, EXACTLY, in this equation is the one wasting words if they are using the word "sadly" and don't mean it? [..] It's obvious the first respondent works for Inno, do you work for them as well?, because your argument only provides further demonstration that Inno created the issue and knows all about it. Attempting to argue that they didn't know what they were doing when designing the issue is NOT a counter-argument and, in fact, is nothing more than an insult you are hurling at them claiming they don't know what they are doing. I disagree with your assertion of Inno's capacity and feel they know full well that the design IS their creation and, hence, their responsibility and admit themselves that they know of the issue, otherwise, why would they be saying not to do it? And this is an issue that has been in place for YEARS, this is not new. Please explain to me HOW it would be possible that they could be ENTIRELY responsible for ALL design and telling people not to use that design then claim to be unaware of the faulty design??? Your argument doesn't hold water and worse yet, please don't attempt to derail a subject with priggishness when you know full well that many people take this matter seriously, [..] The fact of the matter is not changed. They can do WHATEVER they want with the platform and do. The fact they have known about it for YEARS, and have said so, only verifies that they wish it to be this way, particularly when you consider the [..] they have done to the program in that time that do not include any changes to people using feeder cities [..]. [..]
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[EDITED BY XELENIA]
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Ashrem
Oh Wise One
Creating an issue and knowing about it are different things from intending that people exploit it, especially when they have specifically said don't exploit it. It's not unreasonably comparable to car manufacturers who make cars that can make a 180 degree reverse turn at certain speeds via skidding, but the manufacturers say you shouldn't do it and if the internal monitoring software records maneuvers of that nature, it will void aspects of your warranty.
"Sadly" is a perfectly common term in English for something which exists but is not good. Saying that someone who used the term "sadly" may have been blinded by their tears is en excellent example of snark, by attributing negative emotions and weakness to another person to obscure the value of their arguments. Mykan might or might not be a volunteer moderator, but I'm reasonably confident he is not employed by Inno. Inno wouldn't pay what they'd need to pay me to work for them.
If someone is going to say they are a "million percent certain" of something, they're going to get comparable wildly exaggerated statement in return, that's just the way I roll.
"Sadly" is a perfectly common term in English for something which exists but is not good. Saying that someone who used the term "sadly" may have been blinded by their tears is en excellent example of snark, by attributing negative emotions and weakness to another person to obscure the value of their arguments. Mykan might or might not be a volunteer moderator, but I'm reasonably confident he is not employed by Inno. Inno wouldn't pay what they'd need to pay me to work for them.
If someone is going to say they are a "million percent certain" of something, they're going to get comparable wildly exaggerated statement in return, that's just the way I roll.
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DeletedUser9601
Guest
You're completely ignoring the possibility of unintended consequences. Most games, especially iterative online games, have loopholes that get exploited by clever players. A developer might have a handful of testers working on game designs for a few weeks/months; there's no way that those people will catch all the exploits that thousands of players might uncover over a year of playing.
[..]
Yes, Inno could easily punish the most obvious offenders. But they could also fix the chat function, and add upgrades to the trader, and add more features to the mobile app, etc. etc. To ascribe the lack of activity to malice or some sort of internal conspiracy makes you look unhinged.
[..]
Yes, Inno could easily punish the most obvious offenders. But they could also fix the chat function, and add upgrades to the trader, and add more features to the mobile app, etc. etc. To ascribe the lack of activity to malice or some sort of internal conspiracy makes you look unhinged.
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