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    Your Elvenar Team

Interesting Psychological Dilemma

MaidenFair

Chef - Head Philologist
Three star traders undercut the market to get their trades picked up first in the name of generosity.
Are you talking about small players or large players, though? Because I think @Alram's concern is about small players offering 3-star trades they can't actually afford just because they think that's "the done thing" (correct me if I'm wrong, please!), which isn't necessarily an attempt to get them picked up first (I also don't see how even a lot of small players doing that with 100-good trades or less would significantly impact the market when larger players are trading in tens or even hundreds of thousands). If I read you right, what you're concerned about is large players who routinely post 3-star trades just to show up at the top of the trader, right, and/or people trying to make a profit on goods that are universally short? Personally, it seems like if those players and their effect is your main concern, then refusing to take any 3-star trades seems like using a shotgun on a mosquito, because those same small players you're trying to keep the market useful for are now not getting their trades picked up at all (assuming they're also offering 3-stars, for whatever reason). But that's just my viewpoint on it.

What if I actually think it is a damaging thing? Can I say it?
I mean, I can't speak for everyone, because the bullying concern wasn't mine to begin with, but in my opinion: absolutely, and if anyone complains, you can refer them to me. ;) If after genuinely listening to the other side of the argument, you still maintain your opinion that all 3-star trades actually damage the market, you have a valid concern and that is a good enough reason to worry about it, express your opinion, and even explain to new players why you won't take their trades, and how you think the market works best. I am likewise free to continue to place or take the occasional 3-star trade. I think the only place that would potentially stray into the actual bullying/coercion/what-have-you issue someone brought up is if either of us posit our opinions on these things as law, without allowing for the freedom of new players to think through the topic for themselves and possibly come to a different conclusion. In the end, I think it circles back around to Darielle's reason for originally posting: trying to genuinely understand an opposite opinion/what someone is feeling, even if you ultimately come to the conclusion that you still disagree with their conclusions. :)
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
So it all comes down talking? Saying out loud that I won't take or place certain trades is bullying and coercion? :cool:

In a lot of ways you are right. It does come down to talking because talking is how we manage our relationships.
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On the other hand, if a person says, "I don't take this type of trade," they are informing others of what they won't do. They are not telling them why they won't do it. Nothing wrong with that and the only "damage" that might be done is that the one receiving the message may imagine all sorts of reasons for the original statement -- including, "if I post that type of trade this person may think I'm a bad person" -- an unintended type of coercion ("coercion" being a big, fat, overstatement, of course, but in that direction rather than away, in any case). Thus, if you know the information you provide about your behaviors may be missunderstood, it might be a wise thing to add, "because....." The "because" if it's a good reason, may start a good conversation. But it has to be ownership by yourself. You have to own that it's your opinion...then have good reasons, clearly expressed, for having that opinion. Too often, because we've never actually been challenged in our opinions we assume them to be right, state them, and then can't figure out why this guy is "attacking" us by disagreeing with our opinion! Without the reasons your opinion is "just" your opinion. Adding good reasons removes it from "just" to "influential." In any case, expressing your stand without implying, stating, or adding any kind of "punishment" is not automatically implying threats of coercion. It could be read that way, but "bullying" isn't a light switch, it's more like a hose. Full bore it can kill you, a trickle, probably not.

Sadly, in this age of "as few words as possible" we often think "expression equals explanation." And that is just poor communication leading to poor relationships.

AJ
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
Bully'n is like Porn, ya know it when you see it.....
problem is that only applies to the person saying it.

uhhhh, exactly !! in this case..... Perception = reality.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
Are you talking about small players or large players,
Large players.
I will pretty much take any little player trade. They can not control or affect shortages. I will tell them that they dont have to offer three star and that I will pick up any 2 star same tier trade they put up as soon as I see it. But that does not prevent me from picking up whatever they post.
refusing to take any 3-star trades seems like using a shotgun on a mosquito,
I dont refuse to take any, I simply take them last. I take the minis(any star/any tier) first and work my way up from the bottom of the trader. I skip players with more than 10 posts and keep going up until I run out of goods. The discounted three star trades at the top of the trader are last on my list.

Edit: This is same tier only except for the minis, and goods that are in short supply on my servers(steel and scrolls atm).
 
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MaidenFair

Chef - Head Philologist
@Iyapo1 , like Darielle said, things in this post keep making me think, and reassess my own opinions. Thinking about the last few posts made me realise that I missed the heart of the matter in my last post. I said
I am likewise free to continue to place or take the occasional 3-star trade.
What I didn't add and should have, is that while that may be true, I am also free to refrain from posting them. Since avoiding posting and taking 3-star trades is not immoral, meaning there is no moral reason driving me to post them as a general rule (with exceptions for various reasons, as you pointed out), then there is also no reason for me not to curtail my freedom to post them in favour of being kind, when I know some people have practical objections. Even if I don't see the concern there, I can choose to honour your concern over it, which is perhaps the kinder option and the point of this thread. "Love thy neighbour as thyself." :human::elf:
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
There is also no reason to curtail them. Offering 3 star trades makes some players happy. Accepting three star trades makes some players happy. Unless there is an actual shortage they harm no one(new players are short everything). It makes no difference if I like them or take them.
 

MaidenFair

Chef - Head Philologist
Then we're in perfect agreement. :) I was trying to avoid losing the thrust of my remarks by resorting to the archaic, formal "one can" or "one ought to" type of construction, so my last post was not intended to apply solely to you: I just addressed it to you since the thought process came about as a result of the conversation we were directly having. I was also trying to address the overall trend of the thread and the debates which I've seen recur frequently in the forum on what "fair" means in trading, whether one can even use the word "fair", what constitutes bullying, etc., and my conclusion was that in this type of difference of opinion, where there is no clear moral rule at stake, I would rather be kind than be right. My apologies if the wider application I intended was not clear.
 

shimmerfly

Well-Known Member
I was also trying to address the overall trend of the thread and the debates which I've seen recur frequently in the forum on what "fair" means in trading, whether one can even use the word "fair", what constitutes bullying, etc., and my conclusion was that in this type of difference of opinion, where there is no clear moral rule at stake, I would rather be kind than be right. My apologies if the wider application I intended was not clear.
My thoughts exactly Thank you!
 
Nor have I seen one. As a player who enjoys doing 3 star trades and always has, I would never enter a fellowship that frowned on three star. I have avoided fellowships that frowned on cross tiers as well, because I occasionally (rarely) do those, at 3 star. Even though it's not often, I still wouldn't clash with any rules of a fellowship. It's their way or it's the highway (for me) because I know up front what I'm getting into, and I adapt to them, not the other way around. So yes, I join groups whose rules align with my style.

I've seen a fellowship that actively encouraged three star, but I was already in a different fellowship so didn't join. I agree that such is very difficult for new players, although I've done it. But, I'm actually glad to see all different kinds of fellowships out there, including that one, because I do think we need a wide range of styles to make everyone happy. As the saying goes, different strokes for different folks. :)
When I was a newbie and did cross tier trades, I was happy when our Archmage took them every time. No complains. When I became a mage and was talking trades with him he said "I take all fair trades, cross tier or straight it doesn't matter as it all balances out in the end". To him fair trades are 2 and 3 Star. So I learned that cross tier is not that bad as long as you can spare the goods to the smaller players and don't leave yourself depleted. So I don't worry about trades at all. When I see 1 or 0 Star trades, I leave em. When I see 2 or 3 Star, I take em. When I see cross tier I take em, keeping my stock in mind. It's a take it or leave free trade world here in Elvenar. Feel good when you take trades, no matter what, because, in essence you are helping the player that posted them.
 

kctanzen

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty accommodating for smaller cities in my fellowship with trade goods.
Especially if they are needed for Spire or research / particularly powerful upgrades (wonders mostly, sometimes the military training buildings).
After a while -- these smaller cities grow and learn what they can / can't sustain and things usually settle down into a nice easy flow.

When I have made sure my fellowship folks are taken care of == I pretty much hoover up anything in my trader list that doesn't throw my boosted goods totally out of whack or too low for my personal taste. (Been teasingly called a hoarder ... hoarders / misers usually don't share, so that's not terribly accurate just teasing)

Sentient goods are a different kettle of fish for me -- I'm a lot more discerning since those decay and are a bit harder to pile up.
 
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