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    Your Elvenar Team

Is Needles Really All That Helpful?

Lemon Wren

Well-Known Member
I'm considering getting rid of my Needles wonder. It's level 6. I'm currently in a holding pattern at the end of Fairies (not ready to start Orcs quite yet), and I also have a GA, Sanctuary, Endless Excavation, Mountain Halls and a Prosperity Towers. I do a combination of catering and fighting, but I feel like I don't use light ranged fighters as often as the others so I'm wondering if it can go.

Speaking of ancient wonders - the Dwarven Bulwark also looks tempting. Would it be better to replace Needles with that? Or does Needles get better later in the game? At any rate, I don't want to increase the number of wonders at this point. I'm either scrapping Needles or scrapping it and placing the DB or I'm keeping Needles and passing on the DB.

Thoughts?
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
:eek::eek::eek::eek: YES :eek::eek::eek::eek:
Well, because you're a hybrid caterer/fighter. A pure caterer might disagree.

TL;DR Edition:
  • Buffs light range to one-shot kill enemy mages without ELR or feeding Fire Phoenix to give you fighting advantage for the entire encounter
  • Speeds up barrack production, which helps offset increases in troop stacks from techs and other variables
  • Bulwark lowers number of armories you need and therefore saves you space
  • Free light melee from Bulwark lets you take them out of barrack production to train other more frequently used units
Archers are my most used units. Needles lets you natively 1-shot kill mages without ELR buffs or having to feed Fire Phoenix. Light Range act before enemy mages. By the time the enemy fires its first shot, they might already be down a unit or two! This means you take that many less shots each round, which is a huge advantage. For example, instead of having to take 5 retaliation shots, you now only have to take 3 for that round if you managed to kill 2 mages already with your light range's opening round. This is beneficial to your non-light range units too because enemy AI tends to hive mind targeting light range first. Therefore, your heavy melee, heavy range, and mages live longer to do their thing.

Secondly, besides buffing light range, Needles speeds up your barrack production. Barracks make the strongest units. Also, if you understand the math behind the formulas, it's raising the number of troops taken to battle. Therefore, your ability to go really deep in Spire or Tourney is really figuring out how to replenish the dead troops in time. Bigger stacks = more dead troops. Making troops faster = replenish more dead troops. It's helping to offset the increase in troop size from techs and other variables.

Lastly, Needles and Bulwark kinda work together. If you have a really high Needles, you're not going to have enough space to feed it enough armories to cover your overnight production because the early armories are super wimpy as each armory level only increases training size by 1 or 2. Overscouting to gain plots risks hitting the Orc Wall or you'd have to buy premo plots to have the space to support all the armories. Bulwark is like a magic armory that keeps increasing your training size without getting bigger in footprint. BULWARK IS A HUGE SPACE SAVER. Since I had a really high Needles already by Fairies, I had 8 fully upgraded Fairy-level armories and it still wasn't enough to extend my queue time to cover my overnight. Bulwark lets me get rid of half of those armories so that was TONS of tiles recovered. HOWEVER, the free light melee Bulwark gives is meh and when you finish Orc chapter, Shrewdy gives you free archers. Shrewdy also works to increase training size, but magnifies via number of armory levels you have. I have both because I love me some free archers, but it does mean I have to be careful not to over-upgrade my Bulwark before I get to Shrewdy or my training size would get too ridiculous. Free light melee* (edit) does mean you get to take them out of your barrack production though. I never train any sword dancers anymore.

My advice is to build both because you might be able to get rid of some armories via Bulwark. In my case, I put down 1 building and removed 4. Hope that helps.
 
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Henroo

Oh Wise One
@Lemon Wren If you are not using your light range much, have you tried using the Enlightened Light Range building? It really makes a difference and turns your light range troops into powerhouses. It lasts 5 days, so you can get an entire tournament and spire cycle out of it. Light range and mage units are the only 2 types that have a building like this. It is not a coincidence that I use my light range and mage units more than the other 3 types combined.

And to answer your original question, Needles is a must have AW if you plan on fighting. It speeds up barracks production and gives a damage bonus to a key unit type.
 

Lemon Wren

Well-Known Member
@Lemon Wren If you are not using your light range much, have you tried using the Enlightened Light Range building? It really makes a difference and turns your light range troops into powerhouses. It lasts 5 days, so you can get an entire tournament and spire cycle out of it. Light range and mage units are the only 2 types that have a building like this. It is not a coincidence that I use my light range and mage units more than the other 3 types combined.

And to answer your original question, Needles is a must have AW if you plan on fighting. It speeds up barracks production and gives a damage bonus to a key unit type.

I have used that building, but not in a while. Guess I'll go back to making them again in the MA and pay more attention to light range. Thanks for the advice!
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
I am doing a temp residency in a chap 4 city bc a friend has RL issues and asked me to do so. I don’t bother feeding Fire Phoenix or using buffs there bc she doesn’t have enough provinces to necessitate it. Her Needles is at 13 and I can confirm they can one-shot kill mages natively already. If you add ELR or feed Fire Phoenix, you can continue to one-shot kill mages well into provinces in the 20s. Mages are the only enemy units you can do this to with light range and from very early game too due to Needles. For example, if you use Cerberus instead of light range, the doggie will play with its food and cannot kill mages in one bite. They also act after mages, so when it’s Cerberus’s turn to go, they’ll be debuffed. Even though you can eventually buff heavy melee, mages, and heavy range with other wonders, the difference is light range always go first for a free shot and Needles is available very early game.

(BTW, my Needles was already lvl 26 by Orc chap. Every time there is a FA, I upgrade it while KPs are free flowing from people making wonder society badges. There are benefits to FAs, people!)
 

Lemon Wren

Well-Known Member
Ah, the fabled Fire Phoenix. I started in February or March of this year and have never managed to get one.

Oh well, at least I have another wonder to through KP into, since I'm still holding off on starting Orcs. And oof, FAs. I suppose that's one advantage, haha. ;)
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Fire Phoenix is great but he’s not a cheap date. You need lots of pet food each week to make most of it. It’s cheaper to cater early game and there usually isn’t enough provinces open to need all that extra buffing. I held off until Fairies or Orc to start feeding it when I started to do 20 provinces consistently. By putting off Fire, I have a large stash of Pet Food and can weather dry RNG spells for months now.

And oof, FAs. I suppose that's one advantage, haha.
It takes very little time to get wonders that cost 1000+KPs done during FAs. So I upgrade my big ones during FA.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
Ah, the fabled Fire Phoenix. I started in February or March of this year and have never managed to get one.

Oh well, at least I have another wonder to through KP into, since I'm still holding off on starting Orcs. And oof, FAs. I suppose that's one advantage, haha. ;)
1. Fire Phoenix is in the Magic Academy. If you've been playing that long you should have seen it many times by now. Is it possible you made a Fire Phoenix early in the game and have it sitting in inventory? Because you are only allowed 1. Once you make it, it does not appear again as long as you have it either in you city or in your inventory.

2. The truly expensive part of getting a good Fire Phoenix is not crafting the base building. It is making the artifacts to evolve it. Phoenix artifacts are in the Magic Academy. But they cost 3 blueprints to make. If you do not have enough blueprints, you can substitute 300 diamonds for each blueprint you lack. Since it takes 9 artifacts to fully evolve, you are looking at 27 Blueprints to get a stage 10 bird. Or if you are short on blueprints, 8100 diamonds.
 

Nerwa

Well-Known Member
Phoenix artifacts are in the Magic Academy. But they cost 3 blueprints to make. If you do not have enough blueprints, you can substitute 300 diamonds for each blueprint you lack. Since it takes 9 artifacts to fully evolve, you are looking at 27 Blueprints to get a stage 10 bird. Or if you are short on blueprints, 8100 diamonds.

If you are *lucky* Phoenix artifacts show up in the MA. I've been playing since beginning of May & have rarely had them come through. Maybe 3 times, but the first time was ~2nd week after joining so hardly counts. And wouldn't you know - I had both Phoenix & Bear artifacts last re-set in the MA. Even though I had saved up diamonds & BPs, they got burned up fast. I still only have 3 Phoenix artifacts, which I don't think is enough to bother.

The 5-day buildings & Needles + Monastery allow me to fight most of Spire & over half of Tournament with acceptable losses. I manual fight, which is also a major benefit. Auto-fighting is a bloodbath.
 

Huor

Guest
A chicken + 3 artifacts is +20% damage for every unit on the field. That is pretty serious. If you have the tempest, than your ranged is 20%+tempest percentage. Nothing to sneeze at! I use my chicken in rounds 5 and 6 and the 2nd floor of the spire (I'm not made of pet food! lol.). You get back a lot more egg timers than you burn making a run through the floor on Friday while the chicken is active. Add your 5 day buildings in the mix, drop the mic.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
I still only have 3 Phoenix artifacts, which I don't think is enough to bother.
For most evolving buildings you would be right that 3 artifacts is not worth bothering with. Fire Phoenix is an exception. With Fire Phoenix, you're not interested so much in evolving it to high levels so it has good stats as you are with the active feeding effect. Even at only stage 4 I think FP is worthwhile. Nothing else in the game is going to give you 20% bonus damage to all units.

Back in early 2020 I got 2 regular Phoenix artifacts from the Coldfire Phoenix event. And there was no other way to get Phoenix artifacts at that time once the event was over. The Phoenix artifacts were not added to the Magic Academy till much later. I still placed a stage 3 Firebird and I thought it was very useful.
 

Lemon Wren

Well-Known Member
1. Fire Phoenix is in the Magic Academy. If you've been playing that long you should have seen it many times by now. Is it possible you made a Fire Phoenix early in the game and have it sitting in inventory? Because you are only allowed 1. Once you make it, it does not appear again as long as you have it either in you city or in your inventory.

I don't have the Fire Phoenix in inventory and despite crafting every day have never noticed it in the MA. It's possible it showed up early before I had enough mats to make it and now I don't remember. But now I'm always sitting on lots of everything so I can always craft anything, so I dunno.
 

Lemon Wren

Well-Known Member
I manual fight, which is also a major benefit. Auto-fighting is a bloodbath.

That's awesome. Sometimes I wish catering 100% was viable, as I find even auto fighting to be a bit too time consuming. Can't imagine manual fighting all the time, but that sounds fab.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Killing faster also SAVES TROOPS! If it takes you 2 rounds to be done instead of 5, you saved your army 3 rounds of taking further damage! Again, a big part of fighting is troop management bc the stack sizes keep going up with each unlocked tech, upgraded wonder, plots, etc. so you either have to make more or figure out where to save troops.
 

Tehya1

Well-Known Member
The FP showed up in my first city MA early in ch 3, I think. I aely have enough BP to gab an artifact when it shows up in the ma, so I have spent diamonds on most of them, and I consider them worth it. Mine in that first city is at lvl 9, and it is obvious when I hit a fighting wall and need to feed it to go on.

I have a needles in that city, and I am not sure whether or not it helps a lot, but any help is good imo. I am in ch. 5, so I need all of the fighting help that I can get at this stage. I am about to ditch the ToS to build a MM.
 
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