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    Your Elvenar Team

Is ToS worth it?

  • Thread starter DeletedUser29117
  • Start date

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
You're ignoring the fact that your magic workshop requires over 60 squares to opperate. :oops:

Must scout once per 113 hours (4.75 days) for ToS to equal workshop productions for supplies, and that's just at level 1!
Lava codex:
Culture= 4500
Base 2x2 =4
1125 c/s

Residence:
pop= 3500
base= 15 squares
Road= 1.5
culture bonus= 160
culture = -1449*1.60 (2318.4/1125=2.06)
Footprint= 18.56 (15+1.5+2.06)
Output 188.58 p/s

workshop
Supplies= 143,680
Base 6x4 = 24
road= 2
pop = -5600 (5600/188.58=29.7)
culture bonus= 160
culture= --3100*1.60 (4960/1125=4.41)
Footprint= 60.11 (24+2+29.7+4.41)
Output= = 2,390 supplies/s/d (143680/60.11)

ToS=204,000 per scout
Base= 4x4
Roads= 2
Footprint= 18 (16+2)
Output= 11,3333 supplies per square per scout

Comparrison:
11,333/2,390*24= Must scout once per 113 hours (4.75 days) for ToS to equal workshop productions.
Note: A level 1 ToS can't compete with a Magic workshop if it has a PoP spell on it unless you scout daily, but a modestly leveled ToS can give i
a run for the money, and you must ask whether you are running PoP spells on all workshop all of the time.


Hmmm .... when you put it that way ... I have to think about it. But at this point, I think my scouts are only going to get more and more time consuming, so it will be less and less effective as time passes. If you compare the Tomes to the Prosperity Towers, I think I like prosperity more because that one only gets more effective, not less. But I admit, you make a strong argument for Tomes in the earlier chapters for sure.
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
I think the key is that for a city before guest races will scout often and a level 6 ToS will be highly effective for supplies. AS was said from the early post don't level it all the way and maybe 6 is enough (or less) and be ready to say goodbye at some point.

This reflects the information we have from the OP and all the superfluous discussions about how good/bad it is/will/wont be in chapters 15-16-17-18 does not help the op.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
@Dew Spinner I have 3 different chapter 15 cities. Main Halls are the same level (level 33) in all of them. 1 of my cities has a level 6 Tome of Secrets and a 2nd one of my cities has a level 6 Endless Excavation. So this is pretty much a direct, equal comparison of EE vs ToS at chapter 15.

In my Arendyll city EE gives me 246,000 supplies every 24 hours. And it has the trivial secondary effect of giving me a few extra relics when I complete a map province.

In my Winyandor city, ToS gives me 492,000 supplies every time I scout. My scout time is currently about 36 hours. When you adjust this to a 24 hour period, supply production is about 327,000 in a day. Which is about 81,000 better than my equal level EE in Arrendyll. And my ToS gives me 2 knowledge points every day, which is a way better secondary benefit than the relics from EE.

Based on these numbers, I would say that as late in the game as Ch 15, ToS is a pretty good AW.
Many on this forum disagree with that.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
Many on this forum disagree with that.
I know. And I tend to disagree with them. But numbers do not lie, and the numbers I provided in my previous post were actual, real numbers from my cities. And I am certain that if I ran the kind of analysis @SoggyShorts is doing, my ToS in my ch15 Winy city would be smoking my workshops in that city as a supply producer on a square for square basis.
 

CrusaderMichael

Active Member
Even without the supply bonus, ToS (leveled to +2 or +3 KP a day) is worth it for pre-end-game players, IF maximum speed through chapters is important to you.

The bottleneck in this game for the first 6 active months (and counting) for me has been KP.

KP is what I always need more of... not guest materials as i always have enough of those if you count the way too many Portal Profits I can pop any time it would otherwise be stuck (get Portal Prof's from doing up to silver spire every week... they come out yer ears) or a little strategy in to what techs to hold off on till later in a chapter (can keep you from even needing to pop a portal profit).

2 or 3 KP extra per day doesn't seem like much but that is around 325 to 500 (there is downtime between collection) over a 6 month period.

If you want to be 325 to 500 KP behind in tech over a 6 month period by all means do NOT get ToS... and maximize some production with some other building/wonder.

I want to burn through the chapters ASAP though and that means at least in to Orcs and probably beyond, ToS is a HUGELY helpful thing.

Supply bonus is just a cherry on top but nothing compared to not being 325 to 500 KP further along in the tech tree over 6 months.

Sure Abyss etc may be more valuable for many reasons but for speed of chapters, every KP per day you can get your hands on is King.

ToS rules.
 

Soleil Nightbloom

Well-Known Member
Even without the supply bonus, ToS (leveled to +2 or +3 KP a day) is worth it for pre-end-game players, IF maximum speed through chapters is important to you.

The bottleneck in this game for the first 6 active months (and counting) for me has been KP.

KP is what I always need more of... not guest materials as i always have enough of those if you count the way too many Portal Profits I can pop any time it would otherwise be stuck (get Portal Prof's from doing up to silver spire every week... they come out yer ears) or a little strategy in to what techs to hold off on till later in a chapter (can keep you from even needing to pop a portal profit).

2 or 3 KP extra per day doesn't seem like much but that is around 325 to 500 (there is downtime between collection) over a 6 month period.

If you want to be 325 to 500 KP behind in tech over a 6 month period by all means do NOT get ToS... and maximize some production with some other building/wonder.

I want to burn through the chapters ASAP though and that means at least in to Orcs and probably beyond, ToS is a HUGELY helpful thing.

Supply bonus is just a cherry on top but nothing compared to not being 325 to 500 KP further along in the tech tree over 6 months.

Sure Abyss etc may be more valuable for many reasons but for speed of chapters, every KP per day you can get your hands on is King.

ToS rules.
I do have to say that most of the top players between ch 17- ch 18 on my main world of Harandar have a TOS and I’m also a player that likes to speed through the chapters. My KP hasn’t been an issue due to the tournaments and various evolving buildings, so after going over the math Soggy provided for me and reading the pros about the TOS, this is definitely making me reconsider my views. I rebuilt my TOS and will test it out for awhile to see how it goes for a month or so. I’ll let everyone know how it goes and if it seems better for me.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
My dislike for the tome is more about the variability in supplies. I'd rather have more consistent production at a lower level than have to manage big swings. I've put a lvl1 tome out a few times through the chapters, but always got annoyed at that supply influx not lining up with my actual needs. It's much easier (to me) to manage daily production via workshops.
 

mucksterme

Oh Wise One
I haven't read every post in depth because I'm, you know, lazy.
But in discussing deleting the Tome I have seen a few people mention ranking points.
Personally, I do not think that should figure into your decision making.
I know it is natural to want to rise in the rankings. But if you concentrate on what is best for developing your city, the rankings will follow.
Up until Chapter 16 I used to build EVERY AW.
Just recently I finally decided to tear down my ToS, Crystal Lighthouse, Thrones of High Men and Enar's Embassy.
And Guess what. I am still ranked in the top ten of a top ten FS.
So forget the ranking points and do what is best for your city.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Removing AW's can be painful if you think of how much you and your friends/fs have invested in them. The higher you go the harder it is. BUT....if you don't build it in the first place, you never have to worry about the grief that comes with tearing it down. I looked at the TOS and decided that I'd rather build another workshop because, like the Crystal Lighthouse, of which I can't seem to find the courage part, I have a hard time tearing down what I've built up, even if it's not doing me much good anymore.

So consider your own feelings about tearing something down you've built and if you find you won't be crying all night over it, go ahead and build it with a plan to tear it down when it's no longer helping you grow. If, on the other hand, like me, you find it that difficult to let it go....don't build it in the first place.

AJ

AJ
 

iamthouth

Tetris Master
My lvl 19 ToS (27%) and Lvl 35 MH gives me 1,242,000 supplies each time I scout, currently taking 69:10. That then gives 1,242,000/16 tiles/69:10 hrs=1,122 supplies per square per hour.
My workshop lvl 35 gives me 13,000 supplies per hour, thus 13,000/25 tiles = 520 supplies per square per hr. Even with Power of Provision doubling output of your last workshop (and all before, I have 10) that would only give me 1040, still less per sq/hr. I don't earn that many PP's per day.

I see the point about getting it all in one lump delivery, rather than spread out, but just on the above stats, ToS is worthwhile. That also does not consider the tiles required for population and culture needed to make a lvl 35 workshop like Soggy points out.
 

Moho

Chef
Just recently I finally decided to tear down my ToS, Crystal Lighthouse, Thrones of High Men and Enar's Embassy.
I have just planted Thrones of High Men in my city. I did this because I'm concerned about the level of Culture and I thought this AW was going to help. I haven't invested anything in it yet.

Have I made a wrong decision? I want my city to be as efficient as possible. Should I abandon the Thrones of High Men? Please tell me your opinion. :)
 

mucksterme

Oh Wise One
I have just planted Thrones of High Men in my city. I did this because I'm concerned about the level of Culture and I thought this AW was going to help. I haven't invested anything in it yet.

Have I made a wrong decision? I want my city to be as efficient as possible. Should I abandon the Thrones of High Men? Please tell me your opinion. :)

At my level culture is no longer a big concern so I didn't factor that into my decision.
If it helps you there then it is a good thing.
But be prepared for one of the math nerds to come in and tell you there are buildings that will give you better culture per block
 

Moho

Chef
If it helps you there then it is a good thing.
Thank you for your reply.

It might help, but I'm not sure. The thing that has conviced me to have it in my yard is the following idea in the Elvenar Wiki: "It gives you extra Culture for each AW construction or upgrade." It sounds like an exponential advantage, but I may be wrong like I've been many times before.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Have I made a wrong decision?
I want my city to be as efficient as possible.
Should I abandon the Thrones of High Men? Please tell me your opinion.
I think that there are a lot better places to put KP and there are loads of ways to get a lot of culture.
Personally, I'd never put a single KP into the thrones if the Monastery/sanctuary was an option.
The thing that has conviced me to have it in my yard is the following idea in the Elvenar Wiki: "It gives you extra Culture for each AW construction or upgrade." It sounds like an exponential advantage
The problem with this now is that you are no longer free to simply max out every wonder you can squeeze into your city. The SPire & tournament both increase in costs based on your total AW levels so any wonder that relies on increasing this has a built-in downside.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I do have to say that most of the top players between ch 17- ch 18 on my main world of Harandar have a TOS and I’m also a player that likes to speed through the chapters. My KP hasn’t been an issue due to the tournaments and various evolving buildings, so after going over the math Soggy provided for me and reading the pros about the TOS, this is definitely making me reconsider my views. I rebuilt my TOS and will test it out for awhile to see how it goes for a month or so. I’ll let everyone know how it goes and if it seems better for me.
I'll be interested to see how the experiment goes.
 

Moho

Chef
The problem with this now is that you are no longer free to simply max out every wonder you can squeeze into your city. The SPire & tournament both increase in costs based on your total AW levels so any wonder that relies on increasing this has a built-in downside.
Thank you. But does this mean I should drastically limit the number of AWs and their upgrades?
 

Soleil Nightbloom

Well-Known Member
I'll be interested to see how the experiment goes.
Same. As I mentioned previously I’m not a huge fan of the TOS either but the math did make me curious. I sold my crystal lighthouse to put my rebuilt TOS in its spot. I don’t like selling buildings if I can help it but my crystal lighthouse was at level 2 and had it mostly for the cliff design to be honest. It won’t be hard to get it back if this experiment doesn’t workout.
 

Gladiola

Well-Known Member
I'm interested in this discussion. As a player newly in chapter 5, I have decided not to build TOS because it doesn't offer me much benefit for my playstyle, which is to progress through chapters very slowly and to keep my city small. Actually I still don't have any AWs. I am going to build GA and Martial Monastery with my chapter 5 city expansion though. One thing that people tend to leave out of calculations related to workshops is their benefit in supplies and coins from doing cycling quests as well as their utility in events and FAs. I have the minimum number of workshops that I'm comfortable with for event and FA participation (six workshops levels 4 through 15 right now) and still have to trade supplies at the wholesaler at least a couple times a week. So TOS is not all that exciting to me.
 

DeletedUser29117

Guest
@Aegliriel Gilmir
You need to scout about once every 3 days to make the ToS worth it at the current level. This gets significantly better with a couple of levels in it though.
It also doesn't account for the free KP it gives you every day.
Lava codex:
Culture= 350
Base 2x2 =4
87.5 c/s

Residence:
pop= 290
base= 4 squares
Road= 1
culture bonus= 160
culture = -96*1.60 (153.6/87.5=1.75)
Footprint= 6.75 (4+1+1.75)
Output 43 p/s

workshop
Supplies= 1,952
Base 2x3 = 6
road= 1
pop = -107 (107/43=2.5)
culture bonus= 160
culture= -53*1.60 (84.8/87.5=9.7)
Footprint= 10.47 (6+1+2.5+0.97)
Output= =186 supplies/s/d (1952/10.47)

ToS=9600 per scout
Base= 4x4
Roads= 2
Footprint= 18 (16+2)
Output= 533 supplies per square per scout

Comparrison:
533/186*24= Must scout once per 69 hours for ToS to equal workshop productions.

This had me thinking a bit- and I do agree. However, as Gladiola said, the quests can get you extra supplies.

I also added some more WSs for the fa…so the actual number is less than 69 hrs.
I’m still keeping the tome-at least for now.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
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