Just Some Newbie Observations

[crackie]

Without eGems, eStats, eArchitect, the Forum, and
using a browser..... I certainly would've quit in less
than a week. Even with rollovers, you can't see what
a troop is good @ till you have @least 1 of them.
Learning the "fighting wheel" from eGems was 100%
necessary, when you only have 2-3 kinds of troops.

Haha I know. The first part of Battle Knowledge, I had to explain why the “sword” system for guidance is somewhat crappy. The combat pentagon (“fighting wheel”), is actually in the wiki. Problem is, how many people list the wiki as their goto source of information or instruction? And of course, if you do learn the battle system too well, you’ll discover the whole battle mechanics is actually borked and your promotions aren’t working properly anyway. But if everything is behind autofight wall, it’ll appear hunky dory though.

I still don’t get why the battle system is so clunky. I am usually not one to advocate making everything like Forge of Empire, but the manual fighting on FoE is sooooooo much faster and feels so much lighter and responsive. They took a lot of the game mechanics from FoE, like Spire catering and archaeology events. Elvenar is the newer game, but they ended up with a clunkier battle system that takes forrrreeverrrrrr to manual fight. I don’t manual fight as much anymore since I added more cities and I have brought down the amount I do in each city to cut down on time.

 

[BrinDarby]

I still don’t get why the battle system is so clunky.

I've never played FoE, but I have played quite a few
hexagonal/war/strategy games. Not only is it clunky
but the AI is horrendous.

I tested eArchitect's simulator earlier. I put up identical
troops, in an identical order. The sim offers AI options
that elvenar doesn't. Here's what the outcome was....
When movement type was AnyThing other than normal,
I won .... but I lost if I selected normal. Whom I attacked
as a priority or whom they attacked as a priority... didn't
seem to matter really.

The actual Battle AI, for autofight, I'm guessing is that
same "normal" & "weaker" that is the default in the Sim.
Its no wonder autofight does lose more troops than
manual fighting, everything else the same.

The AI doesn't get harder either, the more rounds you
play ... it just increases SS so you lose more troops, even
tho your core SS doen't increase at all. So you're right,
and I also think its "all Bork'd up", yet for different reasons.

 

[Lelanya]

Aww Brin, thanks. No I cannot total the hours I've spent. I do it for love.

 

[crackie]

I have read the disclaimer on EA’s battle simulator and then wondered how useful is a battle simulator if it isn’t accurately replicating the AI. Therefore, I have only experimented in live battles instead of using the simulator.

The AI doesn't get harder either, the more rounds you
play ... it just increases SS so you lose more troops, even
tho your core SS doen't increase at all. So you're right,
and I also think its "all Bork'd up", yet for different reasons.

Yes and no. The squad ratios are set and the gap between how many you bring and how many they bring widens as you go deeper into tourney, which means more dead troops, as you have said, but it is harder because you fight more and more underhanded and outnumbered as you keep going to next province. You do bring more troops as you progress but it is just at a slower increase than AI’s stacks (yes, I said stacks @samidodamage!).

Most people think the progression is linear, but it is actually stepped. There are major jumps at certain points, which means sometimes doing one more province is stepping off a cliff in terms of how much more damage/loss of troops you will take. Or to put it another way, adding just 5 more provinces from province #10 to #15 is not the same jump as say #35 to #40. Going from #35 to #40 is definitely a more exponential spike than linear! Or if that is still not clear, it’s like upgrading your Moonstone Library will increase your culture and pop a little each chapter (linear), but certain chapter like Woodelves, it will almost double in pop and culture (exponential)! Some provinces jump like that.

Also, the enemy gets promotions as you continue, which puts buffs/debuffs into play. That would also make the fights more meaningfully difficult outside just numbers. And it’s what makes it super annoying because they’re buffing/debuffing you while you are sometimes able to buff/debuff due to the bug.

 

[Deleted User - 850238979]

There was always an early game coin crunch, even in the old tech tree, but best source of coins early game is neighborly help. That's now behind a tech. So is fellowship. That would be up to 24 NH coinage in one's coffers daily!

I just unlocked fellowships this morning. Fingers crossed I find a home on Winy so I can get more NH coin.

 

[BrinDarby]

Or to put it another way, adding just 5 more provinces from province #10 to #15 is not the same jump as say #35 to #40. Going from #35 to #40 is definitely a more exponential spike than linear!

Both my CH6 cities have between 11-15 provinces open
for tournaments. So, I've never seen the jump from 35 to 40.
Took me awhile to reverse just being overscouted.

I understand linear vs exponential, that doesn't change the
fact that we all have a core SS. P1r1 is no harder than P5r1,
the only real difference is increases to troop losses. I also
know P1-5 is 1star, P6-10 is 2star, P11-15 is 3star, so Yes
different abilities can be "harder" and "more complicated".

Since newbs are not talking CH21 or P40, they mainly are
looking @ troop losses. Increasing SS while lowering the
reg province difficulty, increases troop losses. All they
care about is producing more troops than they are losing.
Because "placed" land skyrockets catering costs, adding
land to increase production (troops/resources) can actually
cripple a newb just as much as severe overscouting, or
even upgrading your MH, when its not necessary yet.

You also have to take into account that as a % of current
SS, each increase is inversely more than the last. By that
I mean SS+ #7 might be a 30% bump, whereas SS+ #50
might only be a 4-5% bump. Therefore the lower your CH,
the more each SS+ costs, hurting newbs the most.

The new TechTree eliminated some optional researches
early on. Newbs now have less options, so they add Land
for more production, costing them in catering costs, but
you can't offset both resources and troops with Land.

Because Inno sells "frustration relief", they are making
changes for both engame players and newbs, to take
away any dongle/workarounds to both eliminate the
frustration and to counteract players that use the rules
to thier adv. Inno just changes the rules... duhhh.

 

[Lelanya]

I just unlocked fellowships this morning. Fingers crossed I find a home on Winy so I can get more NH coin.

I invited you to my Fellowship, Druid Junction. We have 20 or so.

 

[JackofShadows]

I would have quit this game long since if it weren't for my Fellowship - for the reasons stated in the original post.

The game gets terribly frustrating early on. Events exacerbate the problem when you run into the quests that you CANNOT DO. Or worse, the "Buy x KP" - which has a cumulative effect that is devastating to a new city because it doesn't reset. And those quests come relatively early in the events - so if you don't do them, you're effectively blocked from advancing in the events. I bought 9 KP for the event that was going on when I started playing. I wish I had not. I didn't know any better.

The story quests... I have one of those "have x workshops at level y" quests. I'm ignoring it until Decline becomes available. I *could* complete it, but it would require redoing much of the city as the workshops increase in size. But nothing in the game explains to new players that they CAN ignore quests. The game trains new players to complete the story quests to advance.

I think the MA gets unlocked / built way too early. It takes up precious space and is mostly useless until you unlock crafting much much later.

 

[crackie]

P1r1 is no harder than P5r1,
the only real difference is increases to troop losses.

The first 5 provinces are ALWAYS in a player’s favor because no matter how you build your city, the player ALWAYS brings the bigger stack to the fight. Therefore, these are the provinces where the player has the numbers advantage. That’s why they are super easy and you can win them blindly choosing just about any combo of troops and not need to understand fighting. After that, the ratio starts flipping while stack sizes continue to increase. They start to even out and then you fight underhanded as you progress. Eventually, it becomes a question of how wide the gap is and how underhanded you are fighting. Therefore, to win would require buffing and/or better understanding of fighting mechanics. The first 5 provinces are not good examples to use as they are more like the exception than the rule since it’s the only time players have a numbers advantage.

(See also: tourney progression using pretty colored charts and numbers)

You also have to take into account that as a % of current
SS, each increase is inversely more than the last. By that
I mean SS+ #7 might be a 30% bump, whereas SS+ #50
might only be a 4-5% bump. Therefore the lower your CH,
the more each SS+ costs, hurting newbs the most.

Squad size techs have not been affecting Spire and tourney for quite some time, except as a mandatory tech factor.

Tournament difficulty is no longer determined solely by Squad Size, but rather by a series of progression factors, which involve city development and research in general.

(Source)​

(And this is why I still call them stacks, @samidodamage. SS confuses everything!)

 

[Dhurrin]

So my baby cater-only city WITHOUT BARRACKS just entered chap 4 this week. Also no training grounds and no armories.
With 20 residences I have 9 T1 factories, 6 T2 factories and 3 T3 factories, all maxed for chap 3, and only need 6 workshops.

That's a crapload more factories than any babycity with military buildings I have set up.
So far no issues at all catering anything, though we will see how that goes when I unlock the tourney, still, considering the amount of goods I already have stocked up I doubt it will be an issue.

 

[Lelanya]

So long as folks set up to cater, though, we will get no improvements to the fight system, because we are perpetuating a myth that small players cannot fight, and that is just not true. I agree that something needs to change due to the way that relics are rewarded now.

 

[JackofShadows]

So long as folks set up to cater, though, we will get no improvements to the fight system, because we are perpetuating a myth that small players cannot fight, and that is just not true. I agree that something needs to change due to the way that relics are rewarded now.

With greatest respect, I disagree.

EXPERIENCED players can probably do quite well starting over with a fighting-only city. New / newer players - not so much. In-game, you learn diddly-squat about how to fight. You get handed a bunch of troops, and your first few provinces are stacked in your favor. This teaches NOTHING. There is no in-game in-depth tutorial, and no sandbox where you can practice.

Add in that the app has no manual fight option, and you get people who try fighting, lose all their troops because they don't understand about lineups (I *still* don't understand it terribly well), and they get frustrated and switch to catering / negotiating because it's so dang LESS frustrating. And they don't learn to fight until later - if ever.

 

[Dhurrin]

So long as folks set up to cater, though, we will get no improvements to the fight system, because we are perpetuating a myth that small players cannot fight, and that is just not true. I agree that something needs to change due to the way that relics are rewarded now.

I have to disagree as well. In my main city I battle 95% of tourney and spire.
In most testcities, I battle 95% of both tourney and spire.
I set up this city just to try and because I wanted to see how it works if one never places that damn barracks that cannot be sold.

The problem is not that small cities cannot fight, the problem is that there is absolutely no real combat training for new players. Not talking about new cities for experienced players, but for new players.
If you do not play on the pc to fight manually, you have absolutely no chance to really learn the battle system.

To make matters worse, new players are facing the regular questline AND have eventquests that will have them quickly overscout since they cannot get into the tourney until into chap 4, or spire into chap 5, nor have a lot of crafting resources, so EVERY quest that asks for any kind of encounters, or relics, or scouting provinces, or finishing provinces will be map encounters as there is nothing else.
As they go further out, the encounters will just destroy their troops and deplete their resources. There is absolutely NO real in-game warning about the risks of overscouting either.

I know this game, I have played since pretty much the moment it was released. But with the way the game is set up now would have had me quit way before I would ever reach chap 4.

 

[BrinDarby]

@crackie ,
Do you keep forgetting we are talking about Newb
Observations ? If, simply, we were chatting in say FS chat,
maybee you would stop ( getting really mad , ugggg )
---TImeout---

You also have to take into account that as a % of current
SS, each increase is inversely more than the last. By that
I mean SS+ #7 might be a 30% bump, whereas SS+ #50
might only be a 4-5% bump. Therefore the lower your CH,
the more each SS+ costs, hurting newbs the most.

Crackie : Squad size techs have not been affecting Spire and tourney for quite some time, except as a mandatory tech factor.

------------------------------------------------------------------
You completely miss'd the point, comon Crackie really ??
My comment had NOTHING to do with Spire/tourny, so.....

Player Zaq has 10 squads of everything, thier SS is 50, and
thier Armories produce 1 squad in 2 hrs. Random encounter
(reg/tourn/spire) kills 4 squads. Recoup time 8 hrs, logging
in 4 times. So when they do a SS+ and thier SS goes from
50->75, thier recoup time is now 12 hrs and 6 logins. Whereas
a later CH6 player might go from 366->415.... thats not a 50%
bump, its 14% , and prolly by CH 15 each SS+ is about 5-6%.

You like the term exponential...... so, uhhh.... this is a case of an
inverse exponential curve where @ the beginning its steep up,
then as it progress's it flattens out......

Therefore , as SS increases, troop loss's increase, time to recoup
increases, CH does not and neither does speed/duration (more of)
troop replacement. Without using land, population, and culture,
you can't either build more armories (more of) or increase speed
in training. That means for Fighters.... the "cost" is always in troop
replacement , just like catering the "cost" is always in resource
replacement. Having the highest increases in costs go to those
whom can least afford it, is counterproductive.
-----------

P1r1 is no harder than P5r1,
the only real difference is increases to troop losses.

Crackie : The first 5 provinces are ALWAYS in a player’s favor because no matter how you build your city, the player ALWAYS brings the bigger stack to the fight.
------
Whether its r1 or r6 its always 1star vs 1star ( P1-5 ), so
P1r1 thru P5r6, its No harder unless you get wierd terrain
I can use the same formula of 2 troop types, and win
everytime (sans terrain) from P1r1 thru P5r6, the only
difference in those is the scaling of SS, therefore MORE
loss of troops. Again Crackie, these are newbs, anything
beyond this is moot really.

If by playing tourn/Spire a player looses 200 squads/week
then thier city better produce those 200+1 squads/week.
I guess the nuance of saying...... If my opponent has 20 squads
against me, by progressing it should get harder to kill those
20 squads, NOT just saying ok make it 30 squads... is lost.
Just 1 simple SS+ that is a 50% bump, means everything
else the same, now they gotta replace 300+1 squads/week.

When you play chess, and you increase the difficulty, pieces
don't start magically capturing 2-3 pieces @ a time, ohh no.....
the AI increases in tactics/planning..... Inno sees increasing
difficulty as increasing cost to play..... ie- cost in troop losses.

P6-10 is 2star, and if all a players troops have researched
2star troops, then again its a fair fight, winnable, and again
no "harder" just higher "cost" to play, with increasing SSs.

So was my ending, also ignored ??

The new TechTree eliminated some optional researches
early on. Newbs now have less options, so they add Land
for more production, costing them in catering costs, but
you can't offset both resources and troops with Land.

Because Inno sells "frustration relief", they are making
changes for both engame players and newbs, to take
away any dongle/workarounds to both eliminate the
frustration and to counteract players that use the rules
to thier adv. Inno just changes the rules... duhhh.

( by the way my dear Crackie )
# of slots of mages +1 use dogs + HM(barracks) the rest.
if no mages, 1/2 # of slots of LR in dogs + HM(barracks) the rest.
if no mages/LR , all slots HM(barracks) ....

Thats all a newb needs to know about battle to win
P1 thru P5 in tournaments, other than a few terrain
anomolies that require a tweak to that. Unlike days
gone by, nowadays you can train Dogs & Palidan/Treant
at the same time, and thats all a newb needs. Crackie,
thats "to win" a tourn encounter, I didn't say how many
troops get lost in that encounter. ohh and thats autofight.

None of that changes the fact Inno sells frustration in
the form of getting players "stuck" and then Selling them
the solution to thier ( caused by Inno ) problem.

 

[BrinDarby]

Here's some hard Data , @crackie

My Main city and my Racing city are CH6
My other 2 cities are CH5.
All 4 were effected by the forced migration.

My CH6 cities had all optional CH5 research completed,
so I got hit with SS+'s. My CH5 cities were CH3 cities and
forced to CH5 with all other research completed so also
took a hit to SS. My CH6 cities are both @ SS 366, and
my CH5 cities are both @ SS 240. ( CH5 has (3) SS+'s )

So right off the bat, that says that to do CH5, my SS
will increase 52.5%, (if I do all 3).... my Elf has 2 optional,
while the human has 1 optional. So I could save some
not doing all 3, but that leaves province encounters
harder. Because CH5 has 6 research expansions, you'd
think..... no sweat, I can add land and just make 50%
more in Armories, but here's the rub.

( next data all on 13th encounter in Spire, last week )
My (2) CH5 cities have a MH of 8, 26 placed expansions,
one of which is bought, and 13 un-placed expansions.
My (2) CH6 cities are quite different. (1) of them still has
26 placed expansions, a MH of 8, 22 un-placed, & 1 bought
expansions...... while my oldest city has 32 placed expansions,
21 un-placed & 1 bought and a MH of 9. So it looks like this :

ch5 , 26 xp , 15000, 1500, ..............140 t2, 95 t3, MH lvl-8 , 9/4 xp
ch5 , 26 xp , 15000, 1500, 190 t1, ............. 96 t3, MH lvl-8 , 9/4 xp
ch6 , 26 xp , 17000, 1700, ............. .............110 t3, MH lvl-8 , 14/8 xp
ch6 , 32 xp , 24000, 2400, ............. .............150 t3, MH lvl-9 , 13/8 xp
( the omitions are only cause that cater didn't ask for it )

Lets see..... doing ALL of CH5 will increase my Spire catering
cost by 14%... while placing those (6) expansions will increase
my cost an xtra 41%. At a very minimum my SS increases 33%,
the max increase is 52.5% for all (3) researches, each one is 16.6%

Since Inno is forcing players to get to CH5 just to have a
"functional" city, they will have simmilar choices. Just think of
the newb, that goes on blindlessly doing all research and
placing any land they get. Thier "brand new to CH5" city
could have a 82% higher Spire cater cost than I do, just due
to all thier xtra land. Thats before they do anything , in, CH5.
They will never know why thier Spire is so expensive to cater.

Its no wonder a super newb see SS going from 50->75, and
runs to the forum...... WTH, I just lost 1/2 my troops, how ?
and we have to explain to them they didn't "lose" them,
they just have 1/2 the squads, but those are bigger now.
Now with a bigger SS, enemies have a bigger SS too, so
that results in more loss's of troops, faster.

I look @ the tech tree, and each chapter's size of bldgs, needs
for both more troops and resources, and it makes sence that
each CH there's a few SS+'s and a few xtra land. What makes
NO sence whatsoever, is in a "citybuilder" game .... placing
earned Land has ANY negative effects to the player. Just like
BuyKP should never be used in event/seasons tasks, thats just
not what it was (prolly) initially designed for....

We know, if ya bust butt, getting to CH5, your boost % will be
about 300%, a far cry from the max 700%. None of my cities
could survive @ 300% boost, so telling newbs bust butt to CH5
then sit there for 6-8 weeks getting to 700% before going on,
is Stupid !! All the while the game bases task costs on your CH,
ignoring boost %, or on your max MH for that CH lvl, that smart
players will not have max'd to save pop/culture early on.

Inno, please stop torturing the newbs we do attact, pleeeeese.

 

[Laochra]

When I first started playing, I would auto-fight the tourneys & cater the provinces. I didn't have the patience or the understanding of the slow movements of the active fighting. When I reached Orcs, I saw players here mentioning catering only, so I switched to that & I stopped completing the upgrades in the tech tree. I have always found myself overscouting (I would start a chapter & I would already have all the province requirements for the next chapter after the one I was starting. I am in the early stages of the Elementals chapter & almost all of my provinces are blue, even though I already have enough provinces to start the Amuni chapter. (333/320) My first 25 provinces are blue, 14 green & 10 yellow.