Just wondering why we tolerate cheaters?!

[Ashrem]

Again, I don't disagree that they are probably cheating, but your hard evidence is barely stale bread.

For around the 100th time in the last two and a half years. I accept that they are probably cheating. No rants required to convince me. But if you say something is a 100% when it's only 99.999%, I'm going to point out you're wrong.

In theory, someone could have spent a million on snowflakes during the event and blown it all on extra rolls on the day of the martial booster and put a few thousand of them in storage. Worse yet, there may be some elite players who have been offered unlimited diamonds as testing. I'm confident neither of those are true, but have no hard evidence it isn't. Inno does, but they aren't sharing.

 

[hvariidh gwendrot]

sorry don't read these every day .... so no i do not delete AW's my game is to have all AW's and then to get them maxed i am 12 for 12 on AW's soon to be 14 for 14 )) seems funny to me.... bunch of kp tight wads wanting a counter and a cut of for kp donations sheesh ..here's a fix, if you think someone is pushing or you don't want to give kp don't lol if you like helping others and are not caught up in this ratio of give to get or cut off because someone gave or recieved to many kp and want to promote activity and help fellowship or just random players in the game..then give out some kp..if someone deletes their AW well to bad for their lost kp that was a choice they made and my giving a kp still stands as a good deed with a positive function once again i am not commenting on push accts just the act of kp swaps or kp donations

 

[mucksterme]

For around the 100th time in the last two and a half years.

Yeah, I'm hoping this thread dies soon so we can start the three month countdown until the next genius "discovers" this "HUGE" problem and we can all just repeat ourselves again.

 

[Ashrem]

sorry don't read these every day .... so no i do not delete AW's my game is to have all AW's

Good luck. The currently existing AWs take up 21 expansions (525 squares (without roads))

bunch of kp tight wads wanting a counter and a cut of for kp donations sheesh

Excellent. If we don't like having an obligation thrust upon us by other people doing something we didn't ask them to, and didn't want them to, we're tightwads.

if someone deletes their AW well to bad for their lost kp that was a choice they made and my giving a kp still stands as a good deed with a positive function

You might be surprised to learn it, but most trained philosophers will tell you doing a deed which makes you feel better, but doesn't help anyone else, and in fact causes them stress, is not actually a good deed. An excellent (if over-the-top) example is the actions of the Europeans who "civilized" the previous residents of the Americas (for their own good). How ungrateful of them to be upset that their children were taken away and given to Europeans to raise properly. Such good deeds and so unappreciated.

once again i am not commenting on push accts just the act of kp swaps or kp donations

But what you are doing is saying it's my fault if someone donates KP to an AW I didn't want them to and I feel like the circumstances of that donation have created an obligation I didn't want. That's easy to say, when a stranger drops 5 KP in my wonder. It's not so straightforward when a member of your FS drops 25 KP into your wonder. Mayb I was planning on levelling it, but was planning on doing swaps with someone else, that would have exceeded the 25. So now, they've dropped 25 KP but I'm going to do a bunch of trades that mean they won't get any chests out of the level because 5 other people are each going to put in 50 or more.

Pusher's don't bother me, because I don't care about my rank, I am playing for myself, not against other people. But when someone puts a great deal of effort and/or money, into achieving rank, because that's what they care about, they have a reasonable position that people who are doing something against the written rules (in order to achieve a higher rank) are costing them enjoyment. It isn't up to you or me to tell them they shouldn't care about rule-breakers.

 

[ET-inf3rno]

For around the 100th time in the last two and a half years. I accept that they are probably cheating. No rants required to convince me. But if you say something is a 100% when it's only 99.999%, I'm going to point out you're wrong.

In theory, someone could have spent a million on snowflakes during the event and blown it all on extra rolls on the day of the martial booster and put a few thousand of them in storage. Worse yet, there may be some elite players who have been offered unlimited diamonds as testing. I'm confident neither of those are true, but have no hard evidence it isn't. Inno does, but they aren't sharing.

I guess that's the difference. At least we have some evidence, while you don't.

 

[Ashrem]

I guess that's the difference. At least we have some evidence, while you don't.

I don't need evidence. I'm not making any statements of fact about what is happening.

 

[shimmerfly]

I guess that's the difference. At least we have some evidence, while you don't

It seems like your spending a great deal of effort in tracking and or watching these "cheaters".
It's happening. We all know it. Let it go or do something about it. I realize your entitled to complain but it's a really, really old subject. that has been beaten to death. Kill the horse or play the game and enjoy it.
Whoa I'm grumpy today?

 

[ET-inf3rno]

"In theory, someone could have spent a million on snowflakes during the event and blown it all on extra rolls on the day of the martial booster and put a few thousand of them in storage. Worse yet, there may be some elite players who have been offered unlimited diamonds as testing. I'm confident neither of those are true, but have no hard evidence it isn't. Inno does, but they aren't sharing."

 

[Ashrem]

For around the 100th time in the last two and a half years. I accept that they are probably cheating. No rants required to convince me. But if you say something is a 100% when it's only 99.999%, I'm going to point out you're wrong.

In theory, someone could have spent a million on snowflakes during the event and blown it all on extra rolls on the day of the martial booster and put a few thousand of them in storage. Worse yet, there may be some elite players who have been offered unlimited diamonds as testing. I'm confident neither of those are true, but have no hard evidence it isn't. Inno does, but they aren't sharing.

Yes? That isn't a statement of fact. It's postulate.

X (hard evidence of cheating) requires that no path to the goal exist that isn't cheating.
Y (spending millions of dollars on the problem) is possible, and is a path to the goal that does not require cheating
Therefore: X is not hard evidence of cheating.

Unless you mean to imply that the ability to buy a million dollars worth of diamonds isn't possible, in which case, since it is, prima fascia (there being nothing in evidence that would stop it from happening), you're going to need to provide evidence for why it's not possible.

 

[ET-inf3rno]

It seems like your spending a great deal of effort in tracking and or watching these "cheaters".
It's happening. We all know it. Let it go or do something about it. I realize your entitled to complain but it's a really, really old subject. that has been beaten to death. Kill the horse or play the game and enjoy it.
Whoa I'm grumpy today?

Well it is personal. I played tournaments in other games with real money prizes and cheaters appeared there too. I just hate them, that's all. I mentioned that I recently left an FS because somebody was KP pushing and I think it is outrageous that the AM was protecting him. I don't like that people are protecting them on the forum either.

What I could do without accessing Inno databases is writing a web application (with a bot similar to elvenstats) and maintain a blacklist and publish a filtered ranking list. I am not sure whether a few simple rules are enough or you need machine learning to catch cheaters, I would need some data mining to decide that. I won't have much free time from February, I might even stop playing the game, so I doubt I will ever write it...

 

[Ashrem]

What I could do without accessing Inno databases is writing a web application (with a bot similar to elvenstats) and maintain a blacklist and publish a filtered ranking list. I am not sure whether a few simple rules are enough or you need machine learning to catch cheaters, I would need some data mining to decide that. I won't have much free time from February, I might even stop playing the game, so I doubt I will ever write it...

Elvenstats.com has already done a lot of the necessary work to show significant evidence of cheating if you look at it carefully. It's quite obvious from looking at things like AW levels who probably the most egregious cheaters. It just doesn't offer absolute proof.

 

[shimmerfly]

I don't like that people are protecting them on the forum either.

I don't see anyone protecting or defending them on the forum Just stating facts and giving you food for more thought and information you may not be aware of.

 

[ET-inf3rno]

Yes? That isn't a statement of fact. It's postulate.

X (hard evidence of cheating) requires that no path to the goal exist that isn't cheating.
Y (spending millions of dollars on the problem) is possible, and is a path to the goal that does not require cheating
Therefore: X is not hard evidence of cheating.

Unless you mean to imply that the ability to buy a million dollars worth of diamonds isn't possible, in which case, since it is, prima fascia (there being nothing in evidence that would stop it from happening), you're going to need to provide evidence for why it's not possible.

That is not the only way. In practice we have screenshots which proove that they are getting the KP from pushing cities instead of buying it for diamonds. And with many samples we can generalize. I think it is very unlikely that we ever find an exception, who spent thousands of dollars to buy KP. It is because for that kind of money you could buy the game itself many times and most of the wealthy people know enough of business to do so.

Note that you are right that the "it is not possible to get more than 1000KP/week" statement is not true, because you can buy it for diamonds. Still I think we have enough evidence that I can safely say that all of them (with 200k+ KP) are cheating.

 

[ET-inf3rno]

Elvenstats.com has already done a lot of the necessary work to show significant evidence of cheating if you look at it carefully. It's quite obvious from looking at things like AW levels who probably the most egregious cheaters. It just doesn't offer absolute proof.

A most KP gain per day or per week would be a better approach to find them. After that you can try to take screenshots of the AWs while they are donating with their pushing cities and that's all.

 

[Ashrem]

That is not the only way. In practice we have screenshots which proove that they are getting the KP from pushing cities instead of buying it for diamonds. And with many samples we can generalize. I think it is very unlikely that we ever find an exception, who spent thousands of dollars to buy KP. It is because for that kind of money you could buy the game itself many times and most of the wealthy people know enough of business to do so.

Screenshots make a very good case, but, again, they aren't absolute, just evidence. A large group could have an agreement to trade KP that encompasses several Fellowships, so that each member gets a few thousand KP from all the others once per cycle. (Again. I don't think that's happening, it's simply a possibility that counters the notion that the sreenshots prove anything.)

A most KP gain per day or per week would be a better approach to find them. After that you can try to take screenshots of the AWs while they are donating with their pushing cities and that's all.

I don't think there is any way via scraping to know how much KP a city has gained in a week. You can't directly see their total KP activities.

 

[DeletedUser2959]

The question is not "Is there a crap?" it is "Who gives it?"

 

[shimmerfly]

The bear hiding in the woods..

 

[ET-inf3rno]

"they aren't absolute, just evidence"

Well there is a city with 64k RP in AWs currently. If you track that city, it grew 55k RP since November and the city map barely changed. It got 3k RP from normal upgrades and 52k RP from AW upgrades. If you manage to take screenshot all you see is donation from a small fellowship, where all of the cities have the same layout with 12k RP and they just unlocked the ancient wonder research. After that the cities did not grow since November and they have zero KP in AWs. What do you think, a screenshot and elvenstats data of these cities is not an absolute evidence of KP pushing here?

 

[Ashrem]

Well there is a city with 64k RP in AWs currently. If you track that city, it grew 55k RP since November and the city map barely changed. It got 3k RP from normal upgrades and 52k RP from AW upgrades. If you manage to take screenshot all you see is donation from a small fellowship, where all of the cities have the same layout with 12k RP and they just unlocked the ancient wonder research. After that the cities did not grow since November and they have zero KP in AWs. What do you think, a screenshot and elvenstats data of these cities is not an absolute evidence of KP pushing here?

It's good enough for me, but no, it's not absolute. Unless you're saying that you have screenshots of every change in KP status for that city, so you know they all came from the other cities, not just a bunch, and screenshots proving that city didn't donate a like amount of KP to another city or cities to pay it back. Unless you have all of that (and maybe more I'm not thinking of) it is not absolute. It might well satisfy a preponderance of evidence, but that's something else.

 

[ET-inf3rno]

It's good enough for me, but no, it's not absolute. Unless you're saying that you have screenshots of every change in KP status for that city, so you know they all came from the other cities, not just a bunch, and screenshots proving that city didn't donate a like amount of KP to another city or cities to pay it back. Unless you have all of that (and maybe more I'm not thinking of) it is not absolute. It might well satisfy a preponderance of evidence, but that's something else.

I don't think what you are calling "absolute evidence" is achievable. For example let's assume that we have all the proof you mentioned, we logged every KP donation from the city and to the city, we even have the Inno databases. After that we can still say that the city wanted to give back the KP to each of the donators later...

"7. Pushing
Operating a “push-account” is forbidden. This is defined as unbalanced routine resource (resources, Knowledge Points etc.) transfers from one account to the next even if involved accounts do not belong to the same player."

Lucky us we don't need an "absolute evidence". (I wonder what would happen with curts if that was necessary.) We have 8 weeks of one sided donations here, which is an "unbalanced routine". And if we were talking about donations involving many Fellowships, then that would be KP pushing too. You don't need to take screenshot of every donation. 2-3 screenshots of different AWs and the elvenstats of donating and receiving cities is enough evidence. We could even write a recommendation about what is considered enough evidence.