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    Your Elvenar Team

Knowledge Point Clubs - an analysis

Aydenn

Well-Known Member
I'm not happy with people who jump on a return NH every time you gift them, so that they collect the supplies and you don't.
That's just a bad fellowship. Ask them to wait a couple hours so you can swap goods. It only takes a couple hours staggering and both players get goods on each NH. I hardly ever get helps jumped on in my fellowship. There are a couple of us who tend to log in at the same time but we don't stalk each other's NH.
 
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DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

A win lose model seems like a very odd choice for a game advertised as an Elven utopia.
I'd suggest that it's NOT a win/lose model. It's more about providing additional incentives for cooperative endeavors.

If somebody overtakes you in AW contributions, you you'll get bumped down the list, surely, BUT that's "not winning" which is an entirely different thing than "losing" just because some random 12-year old is having a bad day.

If you haven't watched the December YouTube video, you should do so. See
At 2:15 into the video they're talking about some sort of tournament in the provinces.
We don't have any details yet, but forced ranking is the nature of a tournament.
 
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Riggs

Active Member
Bobbykitty, unless you had an understanding with the person whose AW you were contributing to, then it was not a gang of thieves. In fact, if that person had an understanding with the other people who all contributed, they probably feel as if you were attempting to steal their reward because they had an agreement to add kp. I don't know the situation so I can't say for sure. But, it is possible there was absolutely nothing done wrong.
 

DeletedUser43

Guest
I don't think anyone did anything wrong, Riggs. In fact, unless you do this to other people you cannot succeed. You must harm others in order to benefit yourself. There is no way for everyone to win these rune shards. You must compete against your fellow elves and some of them must lose. Another model would be where everyone collects shards automatically and you share things. Or you could all just get shards and keep them for yourself.

So far, my succeeding didn't harm anyone. I can build as many houses as I want without taking goods away from my fellows to do so. When I build a factory, I can share my goods and I am not harmed.

The old way was the Elvenar way, this way of great scarcity where you compete with others is the FoE way.
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

To elaborate on your logic, every time you accept a trade you're taking that trade away from somebody else who might need it.

ANY incentive for cooperative endeavors will necessarily be less of an incentive for folks who are uncooperative.
 
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DeletedUser43

Guest
To elaborate on your logic, every time you accept a trade you're taking that trade away from somebody else who might need it.
You sound like a Keynesian. Trades help both parties. It is a win win situation. In our fellowship if there is ever a time that anyone needs more goods, we all donate and help each other out. You can't donate shards, you can't donate runes.

Yes, I suppose helping each other is a problem for those that just want to hurt other people, so in a very odd way that model isn't great for everyone. Just as a law that says you should treat people as you want to be treated is going to be an issue for the sado-masochist. But, I still believe in living by the golden rule.
 
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DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

I suppose helping each other is a problem for those that just want to hurt other people
You've recanted your earlier position regarding the "thugs" who cooperated with each other, to level one of their AWs, but bumped you in the process??
 
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bobbipiazza

Well-Known Member
Bobbykitty's frustration - expressed via many posts recently - is understandable...and irrefutable, given the evident facts.

She leads the top ranked fellowship with the most players in the top 20 of any fellowship. Set aside any rankling feelings this may cause any of us...

....and we're left with the fact that surely she must have some grasp of the dynamics of the game. Thus, when she says that Elvenar functions best as a cooperative game, in her opinion, one has to give credence to her opinion. One doesn't have to agree with it, but it's rather foolish to continuously discredit nearly every opinion she states. And, since she's saying that the current methodology of acquiring rune shards is a departure from Elvenar's peaceful and cooperative game environment, this is significant. She's the clear expert on this subject. In her fellowship the Golden Rule is applied and works effectively: everyone is succeeding.

Overall on this topic of clubs and cutthroat tactics): First , I believe that Elvenar developers are divided to the point of behaving in a bi-polar manner. They are acting like they can't make up their mind which market to target: HayDay types or PvP/ FoE types. The former consumer type will NEVER play in an environment where players can harm each other - PvP has no appeal whatsoever. And most of their decisions are leaning towards the rote play of less challenging build & grow games (co-opting HayDay types into the next phase of building games?). As support of this idea: we're finding ourselves with fewer options, less to do, more scripting, etc. Less strategy overall. My guess is that the current AW rune shard scenario isn't going to remain so competitive: they'll manage it to become a rote endeavor like everything else is becoming. Any day now I expect to begin seeing available text messages, "it's time to collect taxes", and mandatory "Maintain 8 workshops"...

I'm making some assumptions, of course...but from what I hear, FoE premium-style players haven't been shut out of the game by being limited to 10 minutes every 3 hours. Actually, even HayDay players don't have that problem - one could play that game literally 24/7 without running out of tasks. Elvenar surely ranks #1 in player boredom.
 
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6pac

Well-Known Member
I'd suggest that it's NOT a win/lose model. It's more about providing additional incentives for cooperative endeavors.

If somebody overtakes you in AW contributions, you you'll get bumped down the list, surely, BUT that's "not winning" which is an entirely different thing than "losing" just because some random 12-year old is having a bad day.

If you haven't watched the December YouTube video, you should do so. See
At 2:15 into the video they're talking about some sort of tournament in the provinces.
We don't have any details yet, but forced ranking is the nature of a tournament.
Doesn't this create the opportunity to expand the game into fellowship bonus wars. Our plan is to initiate a point of attack strategy and get the bonuses from outside the fellowship while leaving the fellowship bonus for the members behind us to collect. That is fellowship teamwork:eek:
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

Our plan is to initiate a point of attack strategy and get the bonuses from outside the fellowship while leaving the fellowship bonus for the members behind us to collect.
The awards payout is 10%. Without a prior reciprocal agree to respond IN KIND, you'll lose 90% of your invested Knowledge Points.

You're MORE than welcome to contribute as many free points as you wish, to my Ancient Wonders.
 
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DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

I just give out the KPs I can't use, and rarely take note if I receive a reward.
Milestones KPs
Elves 6293
Chapter I 226
Chapter II 678
Chapter III 1012
Chapter IV 1114
Chapter V 1425
Chapter VI 1838
Humans 6293
Chapter I 226
Chapter II 681
Chapter III 972
Chapter IV 1151
Chapter V 1425
Chapter VI 1838
Ancient W 13862
MM&S 3429
CL&GBS 3365
DB 3703
MH 3365
TOTAL 20155

As you can see, Ancient Wonders will already absorb TWICE as many points as your Technology Tree, and it will only become more so because all future Guest Races are likely to provide two more Ancient Wonders.

Consequently you'll HAVE to start paying more attention to reciprocal agreements, unless you're only contributing to your own Ancient Wonders and ignoring the awarded Rune Shards.
 
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6pac

Well-Known Member
Milestones KPs
Elves 6293
Chapter I 226
Chapter II 678
Chapter III 1012
Chapter IV 1114
Chapter V 1425
Chapter VI 1838
Humans 6293
Chapter I 226
Chapter II 681
Chapter III 972
Chapter IV 1151
Chapter V 1425
Chapter VI 1838
Ancient W 13862
MM&S 3429
CL&GBS 3365
DB 3703
MH 3365
TOTAL 20155

As you can see, Ancient Wonders will already absorb TWICE as many points as your Technology Tree, and it will only become more so because all future Guest Races are likely to provide two more Ancient Wonders.

Consequently you'll HAVE to start paying more attention to reciprocal agreements, unless you're only contributing to your own Ancient Wonders and ignoring the awarded Rune Shards.
Darn you sure have the knowledge about the AW. Should I consider your posts as the official white board version of the game rules? Subject to erasing anything that suits someone/thing.
Thank you for the posts. I can't image playing the game - "AW" and figuring these things existed by using the Wiki. How is this info supposed to get to fellowships that don't visit the forums?

then you can win 1st place if you are the first player who posted in a pattern of 20%+20%+20%+20%+20%, or the first player who posted 50%+whatever. There's a wide range.
I don't understand what you stated here. A wide range of what?


I merged your forum posts. Please avoid multi-posting in the future as it is against the forum rules. - Frenesis.
 
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DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

A wide range of what?
The most useful answer is to look at a private swap agreement.
  • You and JoeBob have agreed to contribute EQUALLY to your own AW and that of your partner.
  • Once you have EACH gotten to 34% in either of the AWs, 34% + 34% = 68% so the MOST somebody else can contribute is 32%.
  • Your partner is guaranteed a first place win, with half of the awards.
  • A very effective approach is to run your contributions on up to 40% + 40% and THEN advertise that ONLY 10% will get 25% of the awards.
  • 40% + 40% + 10% = 90%, so your first non-partner contributor is guaranteed 2nd place, and 25% of the awards, half of the remaining half.
  • If nobody, or not enough folks take your bait, then you and your partner both run your contributions on up to 50% + 50%.
As to why the information isn't, somehow, in game, it has to do with logistics. We'd need the equivalent of Siri, OK Google, or Cortana in order to keep up. Some people prefer to make all of their decisions while on horseback, but city builders tend to take a very broad view of things and forums are especially effective for that kind of support.
 
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DeletedUser43

Guest
6pac, what you aren't hearing from Kat is that there is no way to stop anyone else from donating to wonder at any time. So, you cannot "agree" to donate anything with your partner. You can hope that maybe you will both contribute equally, but easily other people can interrupt that agreement. You don't have to advertise that you have a wonder, anyone stopping by and seeing your city will know. People are constantly visiting other's cities and are looking for wonders to donate to because that is how you get the rune shards.

Moreover, it is a foolish arrangement for you to agree to equally donate to your own wonder. You cannot get any bonuses from your own wonder. If you need rune shards, it only makes sense to be in a round robin sort of of thing where at least 3 of you donate to each other. However, as I stated above, anyone can jump in at any time and take top spots in that donation.

No one CAN be guaranteed anything. It is all nonsense. As far as advertising so that people take your "bait", if there are bonuses left to give, then people will try to collect them, but only if those bonuses that are left are rune shards. If the bonuses left are just a little KP, no one with any sense will donate more than 4 KP in order to try to win 5KP.
 

6pac

Well-Known Member
As to why the information isn't, somehow, in game, it has to do with logistics. We'd need the equivalent of Siri, OK Google, or Cortana in order to keep up. Some people prefer to make all of their decisions while on horseback, but city builders tend to take a very broad view of things and forums are especially effective for that kind of support.
So if a fellowship fails to notice this thread or fails to use the forums they are sweet out of luck? Could you advise the "Archmages" that this critical explanation of the game is not in Wiki but a thread in the forum called knowledge points clubs(?). Won't your title be more effective if it referenced "AW" in some fashion?
 

6pac

Well-Known Member
6pac, what you aren't hearing from Kat is that there is no way to stop anyone else from donating to wonder at any time. So, you cannot "agree" to donate anything with your partner. You can hope that maybe you will both contribute equally, but easily other people can interrupt that agreement. You don't have to advertise that you have a wonder, anyone stopping by and seeing your city will know. People are constantly visiting other's cities and are looking for wonders to donate to because that is how you get the rune shards.

Moreover, it is a foolish arrangement for you to agree to equally donate to your own wonder. You cannot get any bonuses from your own wonder. If you need rune shards, it only makes sense to be in a round robin sort of of thing where at least 3 of you donate to each other. However, as I stated above, anyone can jump in at any time and take top spots in that donation.

No one CAN be guaranteed anything. It is all nonsense. As far as advertising so that people take your "bait", if there are bonuses left to give, then people will try to collect them, but only if those bonuses that are left are rune shards. If the bonuses left are just a little KP, no one with any sense will donate more than 4 KP in order to try to win 5KP.
Real team building exercises :(. How/who gets the broken rune when donating? I want to be perfectly clear; I thought, I think, that only the owner of the AW would get a rune when the bar was full and AW was upgraded.
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

this critical explanation of the game is not in Wiki but a thread in the forum called knowledge points clubs(?).
  • We've been doing Forge Point Clubs in FoE for years. I have no idea what drives the terminology, but calling something a Great Building Club always falls flat.
  • People simply aren't very good a compound interest. The most trivial of business analyses will indicate that the 5 or 10 point rotation model very nearly the worst possible approach, and yet they're still the "obvious" solution when a new guild has a half dozen low-level Great Buildings.
  • Folks will also sow Forge Points on the wind, and drop one each FP into a hundred different GBs, because they "might" get some cheap awards someday, somewhere.
  • In Elvenar, KP clubs won't be feasible until we have at least a history tab for each AW, and KP packets so that you can tactically drop 60 or so KPs all at once, when you have an opportunity to capture an award slot. It's the ultimate game of chicken, because the longer you wait the fewer points you'll need to invest, unless somebody else jumps in first.
I'm trying to SHAPE the KP Club discussion, so that the folks who ARE digging for information will have access to some well proven concepts.
 
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DeletedUser43

Guest
6pac, if you want to learn about FoE, then pay attention to Kat, I will only speak about THIS game.

No. You are incorrect. Let me start from the beginning for you or anyone confused by how these wonders work:

HOW DO I GET A WONDER?
In order to build a wonder, either an elf/human wonder or a dwarven wonder you first need to unlock the tech in the tech tree.

Once you have unlocked the elf/human wonder you can either build a lighthouse or a monastery or both. (Neither of these are very useful and many have said they are harmful to you because they take so much space and they take boosted relics and thus lower your goods production).

Once you have unlocked the dwarven wonders you can either build a dwarven bulark or a mountain halls or both. (The only wonder anyone who has studied the issue has said is really worth anything is the mountain halls).

HOW CAN I START BUILDING A WONDER?
Before you can even start to build a wonder, you need to collect rune shards and make a whole rune. You need 9 unbroken rune shards to make up that one rune. You never know if the rune shard you collect will break or not. You find that out after you try to stick into your rune. Many of them do break. If they break, then you get a rune shard piece and that goes into another category. Once you have collected 10 broken rune shard pieces, then they will be magically forged together to make one whole rune shard that cannot break.

WHERE DO I GET THE RUNE SHARDS TO BUILD THESE WONDERS?

You get rune shards from either completing an entire province or as a bonus from helping others with their wonders.

Each level of the ancient wonders takes more and more knowledge points (KP) before you can level up. The first level take 175 KP. The second level 250. They go up and up. Anyone who has unlocked the ancient wonders tech in the tech tree (back in level IV) can contribute to a wonder. I can come over to your city right now, see you have a wonder, and give you KP towards the total you need. All I do is click on your wonder, click on the help tab and donate. The people who donate the most KP to your wonder get a bonus. If you donate the most you get 1 rune shard of the kind of wonder you are donating to (so I will get a mountain halls rune shard from donating to your mountain halls wonder if I donate the most), if you donate the second most you will also get a shard. But from there, it depends on your level. On level 1 of the upgrade, only the top two donors will get rune shards, each level is different.

Anyone at any time can come in and donate to your wonder.

So you can have all the "agreements" you want with one person, but another person can jump in any time and donate enough KP to put them in one of the top places and then you may drop down to a position where you don't get any bonus. Or one of you will drop down, or both of you will drop down.

A "club" of people who think they are going to be assured of a bonus will be sadly mistaken. You can't know anything. You can donate to the wonder and hope that no one sees you are doing it and jumps in and donates more than you are, but you can't know and anyone who is guaranteeing that you will is flat out wrong.

CAN I GET MY OWN BONUSES? No. Only the people who donate to your wonder will get the bonuses. You can donate all the KP needed for your wonder and you won't get any bonus at all. Therefore, it doesn't make too much sense to donate to your own wonder, because you keep needing those rune shards. Unless you are stuck and no one else is going to help you because they can see that they won't get a rune shard even if they help you more. In that case, you might donate to your own wonder just to level up.

ex:
Let's say you are trying to level up a level 1 wonder. It takes 175 Kp to level up the wonder.
Only 2 players will get the rune shard bonus.
The first player has donated 100 KP.
The second player has donated 50 KP.
Anyone else coming along can see immediately that even if they donate the maximum (in this case the wonder can only take another 25 KP before it is leveled up) they know they won't get any bonus of rune shards. So, there is a good chance you might not get any more help. In that case, you would help yourself so that at least the wonder can level up.

CAN I KNOW WHAT RUNE SHARD I WILL GET FROM A PROVINCE? No. It is random. Let's say all you want to build is the mountain halls wonder. You need 9 unbroken mountain halls rune shards. It is so very hard to get all the shards you want from the provinces. Let's say you finally clear an entire province, and yay, you hope you will get a mountain halls shard...but no...sorry...you got a dwarven bullwark shard. That doesn't help you. So, you try again and finally get another province cleared! You cross your fingers and no...sorry....you got a lighthouse wonder shard. Can you see how next to impossible it is to get all the shards you need? Even if you do find a mountain halls shard, you still need 8 more of them....and let's say you finally go through enough provinces and collected 9 rune shards, so now yay...you can build your wonder, right? Nope. You still have to place them in the wonder. Then you find out that a lot of those rune shards will break! Oh no!!! 8 of them broke!!! Now, I only have ONE full rune shard and 8 broken pieces! Ugh. So I need to go out and clear more provinces and hope I get the shard I want.....again. You can see why collecting the shards from the provinces is a nightmare.

Or you can be guaranteed to get the shard you want from donating to the proper kind of wonder.

This is why people will do whatever it takes to donate and get the rune shard as a reward. Because that rune shard is so terribly valuable/hard to get.

WHAT ELSE DOES IT TAKE TO LEVEL UP MY WONDER? In addition to needing all that tons of KP, you also need to use relics to level up your wonders. And you need to use some of those relics you collected to give your goods more of a boost. So, the main reason why people say many of the wonders are a waste of time is because you LOSE some of your boost for your boosted good in making the wonder. The higher you upgrade your wonder, the more of a boost you lose. Even with the mountain halls wonder (which gives you a boost of goods) takes your boosted relics to upgrade. The reason the mountain halls wonder is worth it is because it then gives you back more goods than you lose. Especially the higher you upgrade it.

ONCE I GET ALL THE RUNE SHARDS I NEED TO BUILD MY WONDER, I WON'T NEED ANY MORE, RIGHT? Wrong. No. At some level, you will need even more of those types of rune shards to level up your wonder.

WHAT IF I DELETE MY WONDER? WILL I GET MY BOOSTED RELICS BACK? No!!!!! You lose those boosted relics forever! So make sure you want to build those wonders!!

I hope some of that was helpful. :)
 
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