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Knowledge Point Clubs - an analysis

DeletedUser43

Guest
In Elvenar, KP clubs won't be feasible until we have at least a history tab for each AW, and KP packets so that you can tactically drop 60 or so KPs all at once

In other words, they aren't feasible in the current game.

That in a nutshell is why I have such a problem with this whole thread. You post all these complicated models and make it all as confusing as possible, and yet, the most important fact of all.....that all your models are based on pretend rules that may or may not happen....that fact, you leave out until challenged.

I find that sneaky and I know it will confuse people badly.
 
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DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

I find that sneaky and I know it will confuse people badly.
How much clearer can one be??
This is the first release for Ancient Wonders and, while we have the buildings themselves,
we anticipate that additional support infrastructure will provided by the time that we need it.
  1. A history of the contributions to the previous AW levels, hopefully with a Date of Completion. We need the history so that we can reliable return contributions in kind. This is a necessary feature for managing any sort of KP Club.
  2. A means to accumulate the awarded KP packets, so that they don't interfere with (block) the hourly accumulation of Forge Points.
  3. An Ancient Wonders roster, with functionality that's similar to http://www.forge-db.com/us/us2/gbs/?server=us2&world=Brisgard
Bobbykitty has nicely covered the bases for the current implementation of the Ancient Wonders, and I only have one minor terminology quibble.
  • You get Rune Shards from sectors, as awards, and (maybe someday) from quests.
  • It takes 9 unbroken Rune Shards to complete a Rune Circle.
    See https://en.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=Ancient_Wonders#Rune_Shards
  • There's a 50% chance that your Rune Shard will break when you attempt to place it, and the broken shards will end up in the bar with the diamond option under it.
  • Once you have a full bar, 10 broken shards, using them will ALWAYS fill one of the available open slots in the Rune Shard Circle.
  • To make things really obvious, a Rune Shard is worth 200 * 0.5 = 100 Diamonds.
  • Rune Shards are therefore each worth 100 * $79.99/11,000 = 73 cents US.
 
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DeletedUser43

Guest
So, this "additional support structure" that you are totally guessing about and making up, is the entire basis for this analysis? And you think that was clear to people? (I can analyze all sorts of things in this game that aren't a part of the game.)

I am serious here, are all the things you speak of based on rules that you have made up and don't exist? I guess that explains a lot. (shrugging shoulders). Ok. Whatever.
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

are all the things you speak of based on rules that you have made up and don't exist?
The tools all exist, right now in FoE, and we have had more than two years to determine how they can be effectively used.

There's no need for surprises here in Elvenar. You might as well set up Ancient Wonder procedures that will accommodate the most likely reality, and not sweat the hazards that will evaporate as soon as adequate support is available.

Experience is something that you usually get right after you need it.
 
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6pac

Well-Known Member
Bobby, that shed a ton of light on the topic. I gather that "FoE" was an earlier game that was somewhat similar. Don't care.
I have read your post a few times and think I will a few more times. Q "This is why people will do whatever it takes to donate and get the rune shard " People? What people? Fellowship members?
Thank you for your detail response. It will be shared.
 

DeletedUser43

Guest
Any people. You don't have to be a fellowship member and you don't even need to have discovered a person to donate to their wonder. The way any player can find other players with mountain halls wonders is just to go down the ranking list and look at everyone's cities. Each wonder has different artwork on the side of the mountain in the city....so you will quickly figure out which is the mountain halls wonder and then figure out who has a wonder. Then all you do is go to that wonder in the city and click on it and then click on the help tab. If you donate more knowledge points than others you can win that rune.

But, you can't donate to the dwarven wonders (mountain halls and dwarven bullark) until you have unlocked that tech in the tech tree.

You can certainly donate to an elven or human wonder earlier, if you want to build those wonders.
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

But, you can't donate to the dwarven wonders (mountain halls and dwarven bullark) until you have unlocked that tech in the tech tree.
You might want to double check this. Our earlier tests indicated that:
  • You could contribute to ANY Ancient Wonder, and get the associated Runes, once you have unlock the Ancient Wonders tech at the end of Chapter IV.
  • Unlocking the AW tech at the end of Chapter VI enabled the building of your own Dwarven Ancient Wonders, and also activates Dwarven Rune Shards (in addition to the Elven/Human Rune Shards) when you acquire a sector.
 
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DeletedUser43

Guest
I don't know what tests you are talking about? Tests in another game? No. In this game you unlock the rune shards in the tech you research. It says when you research the dwarven tech: Unlocked: Dwarven Bullwark Wonder and Dwarven Bullwark rune shards and Mountain Halls Wonder and Mountain Halls rune shards.

It may be possible that you can still collect the shards as bonuses if you donate to someone's dwarven wonders before you have researched that tech, but it would be absurd to donate KP to get those rune shards, because until you are done with the tech tree, you need all your KP to get you through the tech tree so you can unlock the wonders you want to build. You'd be working against your own interest.

If anyone has gotten dwarven wonders rune shards from clearing provinces without having researched the dwarven wonders tech, then shhhhhh....it is a bug and they will change that asap. Otherwise, it wouldn't make any sense that the tech tree says that you have unlocked dwarven rune shards when you complete that tech.
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

I don't know what tests you are talking about?
We tested all of the Rune Shard contributions on the Beta server and, because we were a bit surprised that they worked that way, we got a design intent confirmation from the developers that opening the Chapter IV Elven/Human Ancient Wonder technology permitted you to contribute to ALL Ancient Wonders, without regard to Chapter, Fellowship, nor Neighborhood, and that you would accrue the related Dwarven Rune Shards even though you had not researched the Chapter VI Dwarven Ancient Wonder technology.

We even got the correct information into the Wiki, at https://en.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=Ancient_Wonders#Rune_Shards. Source 2 was originally stated more restrictively.

It's also worth noting that both of the Elven/Human Ancient Wonders will provide you with Rune Shards that are appropriate for your race, as is also the case when you acquire a sector on the world map.

According to your own numbers, the Elven/Human Ancient Wonders are not worth the candle, so why not contribute to Dwarven AWs when you're waiting for Granite, Copper, or whatever in your Chapters V and VI tech trees?

Very much to the point, once we're past the initial land rush, getting any help at all, to finish off an AW level, will become more and more of a challenge. The current competition for Rune Shards is ephemeral.
 
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DeletedUser43

Guest
so why not contribute to Dwarven AWs when you're waiting for Granite, Copper, or whatever in your Chapters V and VI tech trees?
Well, you don't need any granite or copper in Chapter V, but yes, I agree, if you are wasting KP at any time, you should contribute to a dwarven wonder that you want. Heck, if you are wasting KP at any time, you might as well dump them somewhere.

The current competition for Rune Shards is ephemeral.
The whole game is ephemeral, but I don't know why you think the competition will lessen for Mountain Halls shards. Once players figure it out, and more and more people actually get through the tech tree, there will be a lot more players seeking those shards.

Unless....unless most people are quitting this game by the time they get to the dwarven wonders in the tech tree and hardly any new folks are replacing them? It should be that there are more to complete the tech tree than have already completed it, but again, I don't know if anyone is still sticking around as they keep slowing the game down more and more.
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.
Once players figure it out, and more and more people actually get through the tech tree, there will be a lot more players seeking those shards.
There will soon be a surfeit of Elven/Human, Dwarven, and other Guest Race Ancient Wonders. The essential notion, in the 40%+40%+20% swap agreements is that swapping is more beneficial than simply leveling your own Ancient Wonders.
 
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DeletedUser43

Guest
Swap agreements you can't have under the current rules. Ok. Why don't you bring all this up again if those rules ever happen here? Until then, it is very confusing to read your comments that are based on ifs.
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.
Swap agreements you can't have under the current rules.
Huh??? You can contribute to any AW that you wish, once you've unlocked the Chapter IV Ancient Wonders technology.

I can accrue just as many Knowledge Points, per day, as anybody else, so if I get a head start I can maintain my lead regardless of how many other folks might happen to contribute to the same Ancient Wonder. Swap agreements work just fine, right now.

The only rule I'm aware of, that might possibly apply, would be if you were pushing, but nobody in their right mind is going to develop a Chapter V city just so they can push some Knowledge Points, and if they were swapping KPs it wouldn't be a push in the first place.
 
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DeletedUser626

Guest
Game Rule # 7. Pushing
Operating a “push-account” is forbidden. This is defined as unbalanced routine resource (resources, Knowledge Points etc.) transfers from one account to the next even if involved accounts do not belong to the same player.
It is forbidden to create trades in any form (goods, Knowledge Points etc.) that involve multiple worlds.

Katwijk's Knowledge Point Clubs, appears to be pursuing balanced transfers of knowledge points in the same world, which are not in violation of the pushing rule.

edit - I hope it's in the same world..
 
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bobbipiazza

Well-Known Member
...

I can accrue just as many Knowledge Points, per day, as anybody else, so if I get a head start I can maintain my lead regardless of how many other folks might happen to contribute to the same Ancient Wonder. Swap agreements work just fine, right now.

The only rule I'm aware of, that might possibly apply, would be if you were pushing, ....
We all accrue the same KP...but that's irrelevant for the purposes of an AW discussion. I can buy 4 kP every 3 hours just from current plank production (plus more from my other two boosts). If we really need a shard, we inefficient players can literally just buy as much KP as we need on the spot. We don't need Inno to implement an accrual system for "dumping" - the existing mechanism of the game works just fine. In short, there's no way to you to "maintain your lead" if a player with goods inventory decides they need the shard you've targeted (and, obviously, arrives before you donate the required 51%).

************************************************************************

KJ, I find it interesting that you're abandoning your "clicklessness" when it comes to AWs. Your swap clubs are based on maximization principles, not efficiency principles. It takes more clicks to navigate to others' sites, more clicks and messaging with other players to arrange details of the club, more clicks to actually enter into and donate at the AW site...Surely the most efficient is the "no click" method: just continue the normal play of winning encounters, accruing rune shards, and putting KP into your own Wonder. Eventually, you'll gain the correct shards to build another Wonder. Surely it's better to expend ZERO additional clicks on rune shards when you can automatically accrue them via normal play.

After all, this is a "gardening" game, one requiring patience and a long term approach. There's no need to be in such a hurry to get rune shards and build AWs - eventually you'll have them all, so just relax and enjoy the scenery.
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

Leveling my own AWs, or somebody else's AWs, takes the same number of clicks. By being organized I'm getting a 10% profit and some Rune Shards, while I'm visiting their city for the courtesy buffs.

The cost/benefit ratio on AWs is WONDERFUL, because they ONLY have startup costs. There are NO on-going per cycle costs, and yet they're every bit as good as most of the boxes in the tech tree.

Compare that to a Tier 3 Goods manufacturing building which, while it isn't as expensive to build and level, DOES have outrageous cycle costs and provides nothing other than a higher score and more Goods that you can't even give away.

I can buy 4 kP every 3 hours just from current plank production (plus more from my other two boosts).
No you can't, not for the long term, because the cost of buying KPs goes UP every time you buy one. The progression is worse than scouting costs.
 
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6pac

Well-Known Member
No you can't, not for the long term, because the cost of buying KPs goes UP every time you buy one. The progression is worse than scouting costs.
What is the progressive cost increase? Does it have a cap? Is there a number of total KP points you can reasonable expect to be able to obtain in exchange for goods and coins?
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.
  • The cost per Knowledge points goes up by the INITIAL cost, each time time you make a purchase. I don't have a handy reference, so you'll need to peek at a world where you've never purchased KPs.
  • There's no cap.
  • Zero. Seriously. If you need to hurry things along, spend some diamonds. If you have THAT many Coins/Supplies/Goods then you need to tear down a few buildings.
 
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