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    Your Elvenar Team

Make optional research not require guest race goods

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
It's still optional, in the most basic sense of the word. You are not required to do it. Optional doesn't inherently lead to a meaningful benefit. Perhaps the option simply allows flexibility in how you move through the tech tree.
If SS had no meaningful benefit, that would be fine. That's not what it does. It imposes a penalty on those who don't thake them and no longer balances it with a corresponding benefit. That is not "doesn't inherently lead to a meaningful benefit," that is "One choice leads to a penalty and the other doesn't, with no other substantive difference between the choices."
 

Ed1960

Well-Known Member
... It seems more like a design flaw that players capitalized on.
This is exactly how I see it now, we as players saw an advantage and shared it and spread it like the Gospel, well we was all kinda foolish for that and now we get to deal with the result.
 

Pheryll

Well-Known Member
Both catering and troop size are set by the cost to scout the province. Catering is affected.
The cost to scout isn't determined by squad size. It is calculated strictly from ring number, number of provinces scouted, and the advanced scouting technologies. The fact that increasing the squad size can cause a color change to indicate easier difficulty has nothing to do with the cost to scout, which is unaffected, despite the color change.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
The cost to scout isn't determined by squad size. It is calculated strictly from ring number, number of provinces scouted, and the advanced scouting technologies. The fact that increasing the squad size can cause a color change to indicate easier difficulty has nothing to do with the cost to scout, which is unaffected, despite the color change.
If that's the case, there is incorrect advice from Soggy, Mykan, and myself (among others) in a few places and the only penalty for those who don't have them is ability to train troops. Still a penalty, but maybe a less painful one.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
It's a lot of manual futzing though, even if it is only a few people, with no real guarantee of results, across a couple of dozen servers.
  • Do they do it automatically for all of them, in which case it is being manually adjusted for a bunch of people who aren't playing?
  • Do they ignore those people and deal with them if they return?
  • Are they going to send each of those people a message, indicating they've done it? If not, (or even if they do and it doesn't get looked at) what if someone who isn't on the forums gets a manual adjustment and then spends them on extra roads without realizing they got it?
  • What about people in the middle of the chapter, but past that tech? Just let them do it? Offer an adjustment that they may not take because they don't know it has stopped making a difference in tournaments but is still penalizing them in exploration so it makes the rest of the chapter easier until six months from now when they find out about the changes and are right back where they started?
Making the techs use goods that anyone can generate, even if the cost is fairly high, is a single database adjustment for all servers that never has to be touched again.
Yes. Do it for all of them. The coding is even easier that way and the weight on the server less since if you try to distinguish between who should and who should not get it you have a number of variables. The more variables the more processor and development time is taken to code each decision. The closer you are to a single variable the faster and less load you have on the server since asking single yes/no boolean question of each account before applying the solution. Nothing "manual" about it.

Do it for all. No problems

No need to notify individually, but just make the announcements. If a person doesn't read the announcements that's on them. Minimum hassle for the devs since it's only one message.

If you haven't finished a chapter you don't get the benefit since the cost of rebuilding is not there. You can just go back and finish the skipped ones in that chapter.

That's it.

As an outsider here, someone who will not take part in the voting process but someone who has grown accustomed to the developers thinking...I am not exactly sure how you are planning on convincing the developers to change a research requirement. Some of these requirements have been in place for months, if not years, and you had the choice to accomplish them. For individuals who chose to skip optional research because they chose to listen to "more experienced" players made a choice with their decisions.

Lately, I am noticing a lot of ideas being presented here because many of you are wanting to personalize the game to your playing style. I will hate for the developers to begin mentally brushing aside ideas coming at their desks (from THIS server) disguised as personal, or to put it simply, make individuals gameplay easier for them so they can begin to enjoy their personalized game that is made so millions can play it.

I am now reaching a point where I am deciding on completely putting a stop to ideas that serve no purpose, enhance the game in any shape or form, other than to make selective groups or individuals gameplay easy because they are not happy with the choices presented to them and simply wants a personalized the game to play. I realize I have opened a passageway here, but when I start to see that people are wasting time with trivial matters, I have to begin reconsidering my approach even if that means extra work on me. I would hate to become as strict as the moderators on the beta server, but you all have to play your part here as well.

This is a game to play. Why did you not strategize in the event the developers choose to pull another rabbit out of their hat, and strategically prepare yourself for when that optional research becomes mandatory or necessary?
My suggestion on how to do this does not cause any changes to the game. It just grants instant resources to those in a particular situation caused by a choice the devs made in the game. It was a choice the players made based upon the rules in force at the time. A football game in which the refs decided the forward pass was no allowed in the third quarter would be really, really bad if one of the teams entire offense was based on the forward pass AND they were not notified that the change would be made in the third quarter before they started the game. The devs choose to make the change and are responsible for their choice.

As for the players "convincing" the deves? Are you kidding? Ultimately the players are in charge of EVERYTHING unless Inno does not wish to make a profit. I am exaggerating, of course. But the balance of power between the consumer and the supplier is a delicate one and upsetting it one way or the other does effect the bottom line. If the game were always highly profitable to the point that no changes could enhance the profit, no changes would be made. Maintaining and raising (if possible) profit is the job of the entire Inno team, from the devs to the community support. Everybody should know that.

Two of the ways you DON'T maintain the delicate balance is by ignoring or even insulting the players. Players have laid out a pretty convincing argument that the basic change proposed is unfairly costly to them. The remedy is reasonable and pretty easy to do. At least in SQL it would be. And, generally speaking, your devs are probably quite capable of implementing my suggestion in a couple hours at most AND the server processing time over a few days would not be too taxing, though I have no way of being 100% certain of this. In any case, it could be done.

The other way to upset the delicate balance is by insulting them. Everyone has a personal playing style and most of us know people who have a personal playing style close to our own. The "single motive fallacy" is applicable here. (I posted the explanation of this in the Lounge if anyone cares to review what I mean). Just because a person's personal playing style benefits from a proposed change does not mean they are posting the proposed change solely for that reason. Thus, as one who would not benefit from this proposal as I've skipped no SS's, implying, that I should vote against it because it's somehow a selfish request, is an ad hominem remark and should be ignored.

On the bigger picture though, it's worse. To declare that you are now going to measure if a proposal is one in which a person wants to merely enhance their personalized game experience or something significant for many, is scarey. And counter-productive. Again, even if the proposal benefits my personal playing style it does not therefore mean it's not relevant to others. Your concern is noted and may, and on rare occasions may actually occur. But I suspect people like myself, and others, would be pretty quick to point out such a singular, self-centered lapse and thus you should not worry enough to soil your hands trying to take care of it. Just a suggestion.

If you wish to reduce the number of suggestions here, you have started off in the right direction. No better way to kill creative thinking than to declare all suggestions are okay to put on the table and then the moment one arrives you dislike, you, burn the table. I would suggest you just take a deep breath and let the players have their say on whatever silly or super proposal is put forth. Yes, they will sometimes be pretty restricted in scope and even silly. But, as I said, we are capable of addressing that ourselves.

Your last point is interesting. I, personally, am anticipating that Chapter 17 will require a billion little yellow ducks that will cost me twenty billion seeds. I'm saving them up, just in case. Unfortunately, for some reason I'm stuck in Chapter 15 as all my seed procution is going toward those twenty billion seeds I MIGHT need should the devs decide in that direction. Ditto for Mana, btw because you know those sneaky devs might suddenly want 20 billion in mana too! Anticipating what the devs might or might not do, except in minor cases, is not the same thing as anticipating what they might do to the underlying several year old decisions they are revisiting now. Games are not generally played with "what if they do X two or three years in the future?" but "what are the rules now." Expecting that sort of planning is probably a waste of time -- unless you want to provide a list of what the devs MIGHT do into the future, say three or four years? (Hmmmmm... oh, that's been suggested already, darn!)

Just some thoughts.

AJ
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
That's it.
As opposed to adjusting the requirements for guest race goods from the database for a half dozen entries, which they've already done for at least one other chapter, and which requires no coding at all.......
 

T6583

Well-Known Member
While I am one of the players that for the most part has all option SSU tech unlocked that is mostly because I was not aware of the benefits to skipping them until I was in Chapter 14. Had I received that information sooner I most likely would have skipped some. Being a veteran player I know how Inno likes to change things up and would have made sure I had any resources needed to do them later should the circumstances changed. However if I was a newer player and didn’t know the history of things changing like they have in the past I most likely wouldn’t have saved up the goods just in case. My husband is one of those people who falls into that category. So now if he wants to research the optional SSU upgrades he has to rebuild things. People can only make decisions based on the information they have available. If they don’t have all of that information they could potentially make a decision that could have unintended consequences that they never even considered because of things they were unaware of. Especially if this is the first time they are playing any type of game like this. Given that Inno has in fact changed research requirements in the past due to other in game changes, I don’t think that it’s unrealistic for them to offer an alternative to those 7 SSU techs with as mentioned before with items such as mana, orcs, seeds, and sentient goods.
 

Ed1960

Well-Known Member
What part didnt you all understand, I am not as smart as any of you but I got the implied notice
...

P.S I forgot to add, I will not be pushing this forward if all voting process completes before the feature makes it to live. As stated in the past, announcements on beta are different entities from those made on lives. Yes features made their way here without change, but many also made their way here with change. If it is not available on live, I will not push the idea forward as it currently stands.
It Great you all want to bash it out here but as stated take this to the Beta forums where it belongs ......
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
As opposed to adjusting the requirements for guest race goods from the database for a half dozen entries, which they've already done for at least one other chapter, and which requires no coding at all.......
But changes the game. Remember, making changes to the game is far more significant to the game than adjusting a few players resources. My point is not that the changes proposed would not be easier, but that the changes I suggest would not be that hard AND have the benefit of NOT really changing the game going into the future.

AJ
 

Darielle

Well-Known Member
This is exactly how I see it now, we as players saw an advantage and shared it and spread it like the Gospel, well we was all kinda foolish for that and now we get to deal with the result.
And Inno never once corrected this ... in all these years. It's their game, and they let it stand, even in their own communications. You do not believe that it gives them any responsibility to mitigate this problem that they have now caused? I do.

By the way, can anyone tell me how to see the amounts of guest race goods I have for a previous chapter? I can only find the guest race goods I have now in my current one. I'm lucky that for me, it will affect only two techs, both in the same previous chapter. I really feel sorry for the ones that have OSS's spread out over multiple chapters.
 

Pheryll

Well-Known Member
If that's the case, there is incorrect advice from Soggy, Mykan, and myself (among others) in a few places and the only penalty for those who don't have them is ability to train troops. Still a penalty, but maybe a less painful one.
The benefit to the world map is that you take 5 squads to the fight regardless of how strong the enemy is. That is why the color is based on enemy's squad size/your squad size. So increasing squad size does help with fighting on the world map but not with catering. It has also been found, but may no longer be the case with the changes, that it is cheaper in a goods lost to troops lost ratio, of investing goods into world map first and leaving the troops for tournament. This means that if you wish to use goods to boost your performance in either, you would naturally forgo the main benefit of increasing squad size, because you are catering the world map instead of fighting in it.
 

Ed1960

Well-Known Member
And Inno never once corrected this ... in all these years. It's their game, and they let it stand, even in their own communications. You do not believe that it gives them any responsibility to mitigate this problem that they have now caused? I do.

By the way, can anyone tell me how to see the amounts of guest race goods I have for a previous chapter? I can only find the guest race goods I have now in my current one. I'm lucky that for me, it will affect only two techs, both in the same previous chapter. I really feel sorry for the ones that have OSS's spread out over multiple chapters.
Please understand I will be negatively impacted if this comes to pass but like everything I have the choice to do or do not and ever do later. most importantly is and this is what many are forgetting "there is no spoon" .... there is no issue as the changes are not real just words in the process.
 

Pheryll

Well-Known Member
By the way, can anyone tell me how to see the amounts of guest race goods I have for a previous chapter? I can only find the guest race goods I have now in my current one. I'm lucky that for me, it will affect only two techs, both in the same previous chapter. I really feel sorry for the ones that have OSS's spread out over multiple chapters.
There are two methods.

1) Build a portal of that chapter.

2) Go into your techs and hover your mouse over the guest race good requirement, and it should show how much of that you already have.
 

Crow Last Elf

Well-Known Member
By the way, can anyone tell me how to see the amounts of guest race goods I have for a previous chapter? I can only find the guest race goods I have now in my current one. I'm lucky that for me, it will affect only two techs, both in the same previous chapter. I really feel sorry for the ones that have OSS's spread out over multiple chapters.
This answer was provided for someone who had left Dwarves...

Try going into your building menu and looking at Dwarven Streets. That should tell you how much granite and copper you have. At least, you can hover and see that on browser; I have not checked mobile.
 

Darielle

Well-Known Member
Please understand I will be negatively impacted if this comes to pass but like everything I have the choice to do or do not and ever do later. most importantly is and this is what many are forgetting "there is no spoon" .... there is no issue as the changes are not real just words in the process.
I wasn't trying to pick on you, Ed. I do understand and don't blame you. I just happen to have a different opinion.
 

Darielle

Well-Known Member
There are two methods.

1) Build a portal of that chapter.

2) Go into your techs and hover your mouse over the guest race good requirement, and it should show how much of that you already have.
Thank you, that worked. Apparently I have enough goods for both previous techs, so this won't affect me. But I still believe that this is not right for the people who will be greatly affected. There should be some recourse for them, imho.
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
I would need to rebuild guest race buildings for Elementals, Sorcerers and Haflings to finish 3 of those upgrades. Think I'll wait to hear how things pan out in beta before I undergo such a nasty construction project.

[Edited to add] Thank goodness I have a truck load of teleport spells stashed away. Though I was going to use those for a FA push. Perhaps Inno would consider giving everyone 3 free teleport spells or something to soften the blow...like when they gave us a magic house after destroying the value of some AWs in their big change a few years ago.
 

samidodamage

Well-Known Member
I hesitate to even chime in here (I'm crankier than normal these days :p so trying to sit on my fingers, lol!) but this is not the place for this discussion. I will refrain from voicing my opinion on this specific suggestion.
We were told clearly that this suggestion (put forth this past Saturday for something that is only being released for beta testing today tomorrow) is not appropriate here. These are the live forums, not beta, and suggestions that do not apply to live components will not be entertained for forwarding. This is more appropriately a discussion for the Beta thread especially since it contains spoilers that have yet to be announced on live. I'm frankly surprised the thread wasn't moved there or completely deleted for that reason alone.
We have been given a pathway to forward ideas relevant to current components on live servers to the devs. I recommend we use this gift appropriately, lest we make @Xelenia's job more difficult than it needs to be.

edited: because apparently I don't even know what day it is :rolleyes:
 
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Ashrem

Well-Known Member
I would need to rebuild guest race buildings for Elementals, Sorcerers and Haflings to finish 3 of those upgrades. Think I'll wait to hear how things pan out in beta before I undergo such a nasty construction project.
The cheapest version of the requirements to back up for the amuni tech involve 8 million mana (among other things) and over 1300 9-hour production runs or 8600 three-hour runs