Make the wholesaler a solution to market good imbalance issues.

[StarLoad]

And AJ what chapter are you in now? Past ch15 I am sure, so like me, your need for Sentient goods has been reduced.

I am done with 15 and sitting inside 16 and not going forward. And yes, as I no longer need to complete the astronomical techs of 15 I have no need for all the productions and I am down 2 two of each sentient MFG and 300K-400K is my floating average now and all I use them for is bldg upgrades and the Spire, and to help someone on a trade.

 

[shimmerfly]

@ed1960
You mean there is an end to chapte 15?
I'm amost there.

 

[Henroo]

And yes, as I no longer need to complete the astronomical techs of 15 I have no need for all the productions and I am down 2 two of each sentient MFG and 300K-400K is my floating average now and all I use them for is bldg upgrades and the Spire, and to help someone on a trade.

Do you maintain that average naturally or do you have Simia to help reduce sentient good decay?

 

[StarLoad]

Do you maintain that average naturally or do you have Simia to help reduce sentient good decay?

Level 12 now and 6.2%, but you don't even get them till you are starting Ch 15 and like many, I focused on the TW first.

 

[ajqtrz]

And AJ what chapter are you in now? Past ch15 I am sure, so like me, your need for Sentient goods has been reduced.

I am done with 15 and sitting inside 16 and not going forward. And yes, as I no longer need to complete the astronomical techs of 15 I have no need for all the productions and I am down 2 two of each sentient MFG and 300K-400K is my floating average now and all I use them for is bldg upgrades and the Spire, and to help someone on a trade.

17, and yes, my needs are reduced but even in chapter 15 I didn't have that much of a problem as I had 6 sentient mfrs and my huge moonstone far.

AJ

 

[larbby]

I can't wait either, but isn't the easiest part of this ....
for Inno not to create imbalances in the 1st place where
bldgs give a static good, rather than a (+) based on boosted ???

Sure Imbalances always will happen as ppl with certain boosts
leave the game and are not replaced......

Is it so hard to reskin ( color wise ) The Moonestone Set and
adjust it to (+) goods, not a static good now that it has been
removed from The Spire ???

Thank you for that, I hadn't thought about ppl leaving being part of imbalance.

Many talk about the moonstone library set. I didn't build it even though I must have like 50 buildings for it. Scrolls is my boost, it didn't seem like a worthwhile space investment. The imbalance is more in the S goods than the T ones. I've never felt the imbalance until I started the sentient goods chapters.
What I experience is 2 fold, only very rarely can I find any trades already posted demanding my boosted goods and when I post trades offering my boosted goods, no one wants them unless I post the trade with a nice discount.

As I'm talking about it, there is a clean solution that comes to mind. Even if Inno can't or won't release the market stats, they do have the data.
How about if for the low demand goods (according to each server's stats), there would be a formula that sets and automatic discount when those goods are offered? What I mean is for example, someone sets up a trade, offer is 100 bismuth for 100 shrooms. Since bismuth is not in high demand (on K), the system will automatically set that trade as 3* and increase the amount of bismuth by the deficiency % of the goods. Meaning for example, it would only take 100 bismuth out of my inventory but offer 110 bismuth for the 100 shrooms.
It also works the other way, when someone posts 100 shrooms for 100 bismuth, the system will adjust that trade to 110 shrooms for 100 bismuth.
If the trade is between 2 goods that are in regular demand like shrooms and soap, the trade will remain the same.
This would happen automatically when setting up a straight 2* trade. It can be setup to only work when 2* straight trades (ignore cross trades) are offered as to not complicate things.
The correction amount doesn't have to change very often, it can be setup to recalculate once per week or so.

Should this be put on a separate suggestion?

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Thank you for that, I hadn't thought about ppl leaving being part of imbalance.

Remember that there are only nine possible boosted goods combinations in this game and every time someone boosted in scrolls quits, their other boosted goods disappear too. And because only the little cities are auto-deleted by the servers, all those bigger cities just sit around and take up those spots on the map, spots usually closer to the center of the world map, where there are more active players boosted in crystal or silk, who may now have a harder time getting the tier 1 or tier 3 goods that those dead scrolls cities produced.

Scrolls boosted players are also either boosted in planks and dust, steel and dust, or steel and elixir. So scrolls players disappearing can make a shortage in steel and dust.

 

[ajqtrz]

How about if for the low demand goods (according to each server's stats), there would be a formula that sets and automatic discount when those goods are offered? What I mean is for example, someone sets up a trade, offer is 100 bismuth for 100 shrooms. Since bismuth is not in high demand (on K), the system will automatically set that trade as 3* and increase the amount of bismuth by the deficiency % of the goods. Meaning for example, it would only take 100 bismuth out of my inventory but offer 110 bismuth for the 100 shrooms.
It also works the other way, when someone posts 100 shrooms for 100 bismuth, the system will adjust that trade to 110 shrooms for 100 bismuth.
If the trade is between 2 goods that are in regular demand like shrooms and soap, the trade will remain the same.
This would happen automatically when setting up a straight 2* trade. It can be setup to only work when 2* straight trades (ignore cross trades) are offered as to not complicate things.
The correction amount doesn't have to change very often, it can be setup to recalculate once per week or so.

Should this be put on a separate suggestion?

Interesting idea. As it stands now Inno has to go in and ever so often adjust the balance between the three tiers. But they can't do it fast enough since the actual value of goods is dynamic, Your suggestion adds a dynamic measure to the equation and thus, one would think, automates what Inno currently does only every few years.

On the other hand, if players start completely ignoring the star system and just buy and sell at what they think their goods are worth, you achieve the same dynamic fluctuations. And you do it at zero cost to the game. The "ignoring the star system" is currently happening in many places. The "ignore the community rules against zero and one star trades, and cross tier trading" seems to be progressing too. Which means we are moving to a more dynamic market and that, in my opinion, is a healthier place to be.

So your idea gets us in the right direction but isn't really needed if we quit punishing people for trades we feel are "unfair." It's nobody's job but mine to determine what my scrolls are worth to me and for what I trade them if I can find a buyer.

Open markets is the solution for current problems and going into the future.

AJ

 

[BrinDarby]

.......The "ignoring the star system" is currently happening in many places. The "ignore the community rules against zero and one star trades, and cross tier trading" seems to be progressing too. Which means we are moving to a more dynamic market and that, in my opinion, is a healthier place to be.

......... Open markets is the solution for current problems and going into the future.

Amen AJ , I got yelled @ couple days ago for placing a 2* cross trade...
( didn't notice I was forced to add +10% to the offer, uhhhh NO )
So the movement to more open markets can't come soon enuff, just
trying to now swap to another Spire focused top tier FS, is hampered
yet again, with the whole trade issue...

Its pretty bad when , for whatever reason, ya can't even just put up a
2* trade and be secure that its OK ... Sue me, The Manor Set has me
imbalanced and I just wanna get to even, then see how I need to chg
my production... after a few weeks to determine new prod. levels.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

@BrinDarby the hypocrisy of some people about 2-star cross-tier trades is they can be perfectly fine with someone offering 1500 tier 1 for 1000 tier 2, but they freak over the reverse, offering 1000 tier 2 for 1500 tier 1. But both are valid 2-star trades.

 

[BrinDarby]

@Enevhar Aldarion ,
isn't that the same hypocracy that says ....
1100 t1 : 1000 t1 is ok, yet 1000 t1 : 1100 t1 is not ?
or is that a different hypocracy ?

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

@Enevhar Aldarion ,
isn't that the same hypocracy that says ....
1100 t1 : 1000 t1 is ok, yet 1000 t1 : 1100 t1 is not ?
or is that a different hypocracy ?

Some people see the 1-star for that second one and freak out, but a 10% difference later in the game for sentient goods is pretty much standard if you want to use them the same day before they decay.

 

[BrinDarby]

well @Enevhar Aldarion ,
would it be fair to say that :
the issue of cross-tier trades was mainly resolved with the
switch from 1 : 4 : 16 -> 1 : 1.5 : 2.25 , but many FSs havent
switched to allowing them ?
Also, the issue of fair/unfair I think is a dead horse @ this
point, as its too subjective to be set by Inno .... remove it.

That would leave us with .... basic vs sentient goods and
the inverse trade fee penalty, right ???? which oddly enuff
is dealt with @ the end of "Fairies" with BloomingTraderGuild,
right @ the point where players are transistioning to
sentient goods .... or will be the following chapter..... ???

Do I finally have this situation understood correctly ?
Brin D

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

@BrinDarby yes, the change in ratios helped a lot. the big problem is that they did not adjust the minimum and maximum differences you could post for a trade. Last I checked, I think you can still post a 1:18 or 18:1 trade, so people can still post all those horrible 0-star trades that Inno should have dealt with. Also, while others will disagree, I think a 2-star trade should be a little more than exactly even. I get just as tired of those fake 3-star trades that are something like 1005 for 1000, or fake 1-star trades that are 1000 for 1005. Anything that is up to a 5% difference in either direction should be a 2-star trade.

 

[larbby]

Interesting idea. As it stands now Inno has to go in and ever so often adjust the balance between the three tiers. But they can't do it fast enough since the actual value of goods is dynamic, Your suggestion adds a dynamic measure to the equation and thus, one would think, automates what Inno currently does only every few years.

On the other hand, if players start completely ignoring the star system and just buy and sell at what they think their goods are worth, you achieve the same dynamic fluctuations. And you do it at zero cost to the game. The "ignoring the star system" is currently happening in many places. The "ignore the community rules against zero and one star trades, and cross tier trading" seems to be progressing too. Which means we are moving to a more dynamic market and that, in my opinion, is a healthier place to be.

So your idea gets us in the right direction but isn't really needed if we quit punishing people for trades we feel are "unfair." It's nobody's job but mine to determine what my scrolls are worth to me and for what I trade them if I can find a buyer.

Open markets is the solution for current problems and going into the future.

AJ

Thanks for the support AJ.

Ignoring the star system would only solve the unfair trades but not the imbalance. You would still have to offer the goods that are in the low demand at a discount with 3* trades. If 3* trades are eliminated, there will be trades sitting on the trader for days...

The system I'm proposing is to solve the imbalance.

There is another way to help the imbalance, this would be for Inno to start an automated trader. If a 2* trade sits for 24 hours, it automatically fills it. The inventory it has can be used to calculate the good imbalance as well.
Actually, an automated trader could really solve all those problems:
Start a trader with 5m each resource.
No more personal trading, you place a trade, the trader takes it (just like in the stock market, whoever has the seat has to take the trade at the offer price).
The trader adjust the value of each according to the supply and demand so basically when someone goes to place a trade, they say how much they offer of a certain good and what they want to trade it for, the trader gives the actual value.
In contrast to the stock market, the trader will adjust the values so all the goods are equal, meaning the goods that have less demand will be worth more.
The imbalance will be adjusted by adding free inventory to the trader for goods in low demand.

 

[The Fairy]

As I'm talking about it, there is a clean solution that comes to mind. Even if Inno can't or won't release the market stats, they do have the data.
How about if for the low demand goods (according to each server's stats), there would be a formula that sets and automatic discount when those goods are offered? What I mean is for example, someone sets up a trade, offer is 100 bismuth for 100 shrooms. Since bismuth is not in high demand (on K), the system will automatically set that trade as 3* and increase the amount of bismuth by the deficiency % of the goods. Meaning for example, it would only take 100 bismuth out of my inventory but offer 110 bismuth for the 100 shrooms.
It also works the other way, when someone posts 100 shrooms for 100 bismuth, the system will adjust that trade to 110 shrooms for 100 bismuth.
If the trade is between 2 goods that are in regular demand like shrooms and soap, the trade will remain the same.

NO, that would only make the problem a lot worse:

Those producing soap or shrooms would then need to produce less cause they can buy bismuth at discount. And those producing bismuth would need to produce more as they sell with a loss. So we would end up with even more bismuth and less soap/shrooms!!!!!!

 

[BrinDarby]

. Last I checked, I think you can still post a 1:18 or 18:1 trade,

its 1 : 8 or 8 : 1 , but even that to me is kinda silly ...
and what about the rest ??? cause I really am trying to expand
my understanding, now that I know its apples/oranges/bananas.
(basic/sentient/ascended) ...

PS - (some) ppl list those 1003:1000 offers as 2star, but it puts
those offers @ the top of the cue.... I'd say 40% aren't try'n to
post fake 3* offers, the other 60%.... yeah , they are....

 

[ajqtrz]

Thanks for the support AJ.

Ignoring the star system would only solve the unfair trades but not the imbalance. You would still have to offer the goods that are in the low demand at a discount with 3* trades. If 3* trades are eliminated, there will be trades sitting on the trader for days...

But that's the point. The value of the goods wouldn't be determined by outside evaluations done by the system or by anybody. Each trader would be free to determine the value for themselves. The market will adjust, especially if you allow cross tier trading, and each good, sentient or otherwise, will arrive at a value reflective of it's level of supply/demand, on it's own. For instance, if scrolls were to suddenly become abundant,-- can you imagine that happening!? -- those boosted in scrolls could shut down scroll production and increase one of their other boosted goods. That would mean more production was put in other things and less in scrolls -- pretty quickly bringing excess scrolls production down and "re-balancing" things without any intervention by the system.

The thing is, the less "natural" the markets are the less they are efficient. Some "inefficiency" may be necessary to avoid coercion -- you can't make me buy things at the point of a gun, for instance -- but in general markets reflect human motivations and ways of dealing with opportunities to profit. Fluctuations in goods due to unforeseen circumstances result in decisions to take advantage of opportunities to profit, and thus, if there's an opportunity, it will be taken. People will shift production, offer discounts and so on, to move goods. And moving goods is very, very, important in this game. How many player have complained that they can't get anybody to trade with them? Especially if they are in a fellowship that insists they can't do this or that?

So, a free market will solve the problem of excess inventory by driving people to cut back on production until things are back in relative balance.

AJ



AJ

 

[BrinDarby]

The thing is, the less "natural" the markets are the less they are efficient. Some "inefficiency" may be necessary to avoid coercion -- you can't make me buy things at the point of a gun, for instance -- but in general markets reflect human motivations and ways of dealing with opportunities to profit. Fluctuations in goods due to unforeseen circumstances result in decisions to take advantage of opportunities to profit, and thus, if there's an opportunity, it will be taken. People will shift production, offer discounts and so on, to move goods. And moving goods is very, very, important in this game. How many player have complained that they can't get anybody to trade with them? Especially if they are in a fellowship that insists they can't do this or that?

So, a free market will solve the problem of excess inventory by driving people to cut back on production until things are back in relative balance.

Inno gave us a free market and ability to cross trade to allow players to rebalance globally goods.
Its FSs and thier archaic reverence for improper trade rules, that IS putting guns to our heads....

Just try to avoid FSs with such rules, and still get into a Top Tier FS, almost impossible !!!!
Or like me in 1 world, because I refuse to offer a profit to the buyer on a cross tier trade,
that was the straw the broke the camel's back and now I'm being booted for (3) offers
I put up without that profit ....... when I ask'd I was told..... Well, thats Elvenar Eddiquitte
and we can't have you making our FS look bad with 2* cross tier trades......

This situation is beyond outta control ...

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

its 1 : 8 or 8 : 1 , but even that to me is kinda silly .../QUOTE]

That is the limit for same-tier trades. The 18:1 and 1:18 I mentioned is for cross-tier, which is why those can look so crazy sometimes.