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    Your Elvenar Team

Minimum Tourney Participation

hoopity

Well-Known Member
Given the rewards for hitting that coveted 10th chest in the weekly tourney, many fellowships declare a firm stance on the number of weekly tourney points their members should earn in order to stay in good standing. Whether the leaders of the fellowship follow through on their stance for under-performing players... well that's another matter.

Reading some of these fellowship declarations got me thinking: What is a reasonable amount of points to expect from a daily player in a fellowship actively aiming to achieve consistent 10-chest tourneys? I understand that for many social and gameplay reasons, you might not want to impose this sort of make-or-break threshold on FS members, but I'm still curious what the community believes to be a "reasonable" amount of tourney points. Probably the most straightforward way to look at this is by chapter, and I think there are 3 main factors: # of available tourney provinces, access to resources (troops & goods), and real-life time.

Let's start with the easy one, Available Tourney Provinces. Each chapter has a number of provinces you're required to complete in order to start it, as well as finish it and move on to the next one. We can use the average of these two numbers to give a reasonable estimate of the average number of completed provinces our hypothetical minimum player has by chapter. As there are 9 different tourney goods, we can divide that number by 9 to get an estimate for the average number of available tourney provinces our player has available. See the table below.

ChapterReq. Prov. to next Ch.Avg. # of Total Prov.Avg. # of Tourney Prov.
I​
10​
5​
1​
II​
25​
18​
2​
III​
50​
38​
4​
IV​
75​
63​
7​
V​
100​
88​
10​

The next factor to look at is Access to Resources, meaning troops and goods. This one is a bit trickier, and I don't have an analytical approach to this. I'm sure with enough energy, someone could piggyback off of minmax gamer's tourney requirements work, but that's overboard for what I had in mind. Instead, I'll just consider that the tournament is already designed to scale the required resources based on your progress through the chapters (yes, the formula gets funky for those who want to game the system a bit). With that said, early players have two things working against them: lack of game knowledge and lack of access to unit types. As players progress, they learn how to make their cities more efficient for producing goods, and they gain access to units that will improve their ability to fight (auto or manual). In my experience with new and established cities, I think it's fair to say that the first two tents on page 1 of tourney provinces is relatively easy in early chapters, but that tends to stretch to tents three or four as the player develops. This is a pure judgement call, so I'm curious to hear folks' disagreement.

Finally, Real-life Time can't be ignored. Only the truly addicted have enough time to finish all 6 tourney tents in a week, and that's not really a reasonable minimum to put on anyone. I understand that in later chapters you get access to a wonder that makes it more feasible, but that's beyond the scope we're talking about here. Instead, I think it's fair to say that anyone, regardless of time zone, has enough time to accomplish 4 tents in a province as a daily player. For the US, a morning player could solve provinces on wed/thur/fri/sat, whereas a night player could do tue/wed/thur/fri. Simple enough.

The final piece of the puzzle is to understand how much solving a province encounter is worth, and that's pretty straightforward. Shown below is a table with the cumulative points earned for completing a tourney province. For example, completing the 4th tent in a province is worth 48 points, for a cumulative total of 156 points for that province.
Tent #Points for completionCumulative Points
1​
30​
30​
2​
36​
66​
3​
42​
108​
4​
48​
156​
5​
54​
210​
6​
60​
270​


So based on these factors, below is my judgement of what I think is both reasonable and quite achievable for the first 5 chapters for a daily player. For example, I think that a chapter III player should be able to reasonably achieve 432 points per week (by doing 3 tents each in provinces).
ChapterTourney Prov. DoneTents Completed per Prov.Total Points
I​
1​
2​
66​
II​
2​
2​
132​
III​
4​
3​
432​
IV​
6​
3​
648​
V​
7​
4​
1092​

So what do you think? Too much? Too little? For chapters in the guest races, if you're in a FS aiming for 10 chests... you should probably just be pulling your weight with 1600-2000 points.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I think that's a reasonable goal and you've laid it out well, but I think people would have a hard time if it weren't an even amount. They can't remember 132, for example, but they can remember 150. I'd probably say 60 points for chapter 1; 150 for 2; 500 for 3, 750 for 4, 1200 for 5 and 1600 for anyone chapter 6 -10 and 2000 for those in chapters 11-above. The reason I put a very low amount on chapter one is that it doesn't intimidate people and besides, no one stays in chapter one for more than a few days (unless they're not really playing).

But if you want to do it in the exact numbers specified, that's fine. Just make sure it's in your overview so that people can see up front what's expected of them before they join. JMHO
 

hoopity

Well-Known Member
I think that's a reasonable goal and you've laid it out well, but I think people would have a hard time if it weren't an even amount.
Oh I totally agree. If I were to institute this kind of policy, I definitely round these numbers to something easy to follow like you did.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
@hoopity
Wanted to say what a good and detailed analysis of the challenges for small city players!
I haven't looked at this in ages, but back in the stone age when we had to walk uphill in the snow to school both ways there were only 10 chests to be had in the tourney, we found this worked:
Ch 1-3 cities: 100pts/chapter
Ch 4-5 cities: 200pts/chapter
Ch 6-7 cities: 1200 pts*
Ch 8+ cities: 1600pts
*We kept this number slightly smaller for 2 reasons: The jump from 1000 to 1600 was a lot to make after just starting guest races. Those cities had the new mechanics of the guest race to learn and the demands on city resources for that. It just felt like having those 2 chapters to settle into the guest races and smooth out resource production made the transition to 1600 week in and week out easier.
For a full FS of 25 players, the 40Kpts for the 10th chest comes out to exactly 1600pts/ea for everyone to pull their own weight. There were always a few players who did much more than that in the tourneys & that made up the missing points for the smaller cities. We found the above formula worked and was easily understood by everyone. Interesting how it's very close to the actual numbers you came up with.
 

hoopity

Well-Known Member
@hoopity
Ch 1-3 cities: 100pts/chapter
Ch 4-5 cities: 200pts/chapter
Ch 6-7 cities: 1200 pts*
Ch 8+ cities: 1600pts
I like this as a simple way to give folks a scaling goal! Interesting enough, I pegged chapters 6 and 7 at 1248 and 1404 respectively, so yeah, we're right on!
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I think the requirements listed are too high for chapters 1-3.
The listed score requirements are based off of the number provinces required to enter the next chapter. I think it would be better to base them off the number of provinces at the start of each chapter. Chapter one players have zero provinces open and should be strongly encouraged to open one if possible so they can lay down 30 points. Chapter two players have 10 provinces if they cleared in a perfect ring that makes 1 of each and 2 of 1, so 30 points. Basing requirements on the provinces open at the end of the chapter would cause undo stress imo.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
8 provinces done to 5 stars each is 1680 points. It takes 75 completed provinces to start chapter five. 9 tournaments times 8 provinces of each type is 72, so anyone in chapter 5 and beyond should be able to do the 1600+ points that is the minimum if you have a full fellowship and everyone does the same amount. Even if you give someone a little leeway to build up, there is no excuse for anyone in chapter 6+ to not do 1600+ points every single week. Or 10 provinces done to 4 stars each is 1560 points, which should be super easy for someone in chapter 6+. Only doing 4 stars means they do not even have to do a round every day of the tournament.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
I agree with you @Enevhar Aldarion as well. But, if you're trying to get new players to stick with the game/FS, it's probably better if you don't push them too much. Recruiting is hard, lol! I'd much rather be patient with a current player and ease them into it than go find another recruit...
That said, I'd be less lenient with a new city from a player with a large city in another world or worlds; they know what they're getting into by joining a 10-chest FS.
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
I think the requirements listed are too high for chapters 1-3.
The listed score requirements are based off of the number provinces required to enter the next chapter. I think it would be better to base them off the number of provinces at the start of each chapter. Chapter one players have zero provinces open and should be strongly encouraged to open one if possible so they can lay down 30 points. Chapter two players have 10 provinces if they cleared in a perfect ring that makes 1 of each and 2 of 1, so 30 points. Basing requirements on the provinces open at the end of the chapter would cause undo stress imo.
I know how to tourney but In my baby city that I started in a new world and ONLY clearing the exact number of provinces was a challenge in Ch 1-3 due to the cost and the lack of provinces to complete for any given tourney. This does not even account for game play with events and FA's that severely disrupt the production if you are not careful.
IMO ch 1-3 should be asked to do all they are able to and just be happy that they are trying.
 

Bellerefon

Active Member
How many times you lost a fellow due to limit requirements? You don't know, cos you didn't really care.
How many times you didn't kick a fellow that didnt abide to the limits? I guess many.
How many times you lost a good fellow cos the limits were not adhered and he felt others were not pulling their weight? Oh that hurts.

For us keeping a balanced level of fairness has always been more important than limit. Not that we were always successful, but we are trying.
We found that if you show to everyone that this the greatest pool of rewards in the game, especially KPs, then more than half of the job is done. The rest is peer pressure, not even one rule is needed.
A courtesy limit of 500-800pts was applied only to make sure that general fairness is present. Noone likes selfish people, still RL is hard to everyone sometimes.
We are doing 11+ chests in a row for more than a year now and noone had to discuss limits or enforce anything.
Levels 1 to 5 are free to play and are getting supported by top level fellows, only to learn how to tread in tourney.

Some FS are using a 6-week average limit to tackle RL issues that everyone has. This is also a solution.
The mathematical formula for performance limit is 1,600, since 25*1,600=40,000 ie 10 chests. Use it only if you are determined to keep it.
Or take a leap of faith, motivate people only to participate and help them understand the benefits. Works miracles.
 
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