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    Your Elvenar Team

Need help with basics

So I am struggling to make sense of the combat. The "pentagon" thingy is kinda confusing and I can't make heads of tails of it.
Two things...
I did a battle with the enemy was all casters/mages... so I used archers cuz they're strong against casters... I lost nearly EVERYTHING to win (squad sizes were 100 vs 102- barely outnumbered). I won, but had most of the last unit destroyed. Someone trying to help me make sense of combat said "If you used swords it would have been better."
So how do I know this from the pentagon?! Archers AND Swords are strong against casters. How do I know which is "lesser" and "greater" strong against?!

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There was a battle in this past tourney, where I used archers cuz they were strong against the enemy, and I got WASTED (see images for these). Someone suggested a 3-2 split of Archers and Sorceress units, cuz they're both strong vs the enemy... Again, wasted. Squad sizes 100 for me, 102 for them. So how does this happen?!

The ppl helping said the only thing they could think of would be "terrain" that made my stronger vs the enemy units lose, and lose kinda badly. The game doesn't tell you "terrain" modifiers... How can I possibly prepare for that if there's NO WAY to know?! And, if "strong vs" is completely eradicated and thrown out the window by hidden "terrain" modifiers... what the heck good IS the pentagon thingy (even if I DO learn to make sense of it)?!
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HJK84

Well-Known Member
From the looks of it, this was Scrolls Tournament. Is it the HARDEST Tournament out of ALL the others.
In both situations your composition of only Archers is a bad one. There's 2 Heavy Ranged Squads, they crush Light Ranged.
If you used a combo of Light Melee and Light Range would've been better, specially in 1st-2nd round... but even then, some situations due to Terrain are a loss.
In Scrolls Tournament, you can't even check the Terrain Layout due to the AI having "faster" troops than you.

If you aren't a experienced fighter, I suggest Catering "almost" all encounters that have 2 squads of hard counters to your main unit. In this case the 2x Heavy Ranged.
Even I Cater alot of all encounters that I know will be a heavy loss. Maybe not at 1st-2nd round, or 1st page of opened provinces, but eventually.

Good luck!
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
In that battle, I would have used 3x Heavy Ranged and 2x Light Ranged. Light Ranged for the Mages and Heavy Ranged for the Archers, and the enemy Heavy Ranged would have died too. Also, if you are far enough into the game to build the Training Grounds, the Light Melee unit from it is far superior to the one from the Barracks.

And what people meant by Terrain, is not modifiers, but how it is laid out. You can easily have your path to the enemy blocked by bad terrain directly in front of you or they can have terrain to hide behind and use their ranged attacks while you try to get closer. But then, you can get the same benefit from terrain in fights that look difficult. And even if you are a mobile player and can only use auto-battle, the terrain is still there to get in the way, even though you have no way at all to look at it.
 
If you aren't a experienced fighter, I suggest Catering "almost" all encounters that have 2 squads of hard counters to your main unit. In this case the 2x Heavy Ranged.
Yeah, been doing that... and that is why I am in dwarves/orcs (one world in each) and have NO IDEA how to fight and CAN'T get far in tourneys, events, etc and get sucky for prizes. cuz I can't compete. So that's why I am asking this- cuz negotiating is shredding my stores and I can't keep up production to do scouting, building, upgrading, AND this every week or often enough to do good in things consistently. So I NEED to figure this out. :)

Shouldn't Ranged vs ranged be even against each other according to the pentagon dealie? That's what the Training Ground ranged unit, the Dryad says, "About even" against ranged units. So would they have been better against archers? I chose archers or the mages (the second was a 3-2 mix) cuz they all lit up on the enemy- the golem which SAYS it's"heavy ranged" did NOT. It was weak vs some of them. The all archers and archers/sorceress thingy lit up nearly everyone. My heavy ranged didn't show as strong vs them at all... how would THAT have been a better option? IDK How to make sense of that if the game was telling me not to use them.


As for those units- those are what the game info says were strong vs those enemies. I used the pentagon thingy to do that, and the ppl that recommended them expected I'd win losing 2-3 groups... and I got pummelled. I don't know how "strong vs" applies if "terrain" will absolutely wreck that entire concept...

How do you KNOW what to expect if you can't trust the basics?! Or does the "auto" fight just assume you'll do the worst possible moves and be stupid to kill you for using it?!
 
Even I Cater alot of all encounters that I know will be a heavy loss. Maybe not at 1st-2nd round, or 1st page of opened provinces, but eventually
BTW, those shots above WERE FIRST ROUND. Zero star, first combat... I've tried this over and over in events, provinces, spire.... I use what the pentagon dealie and the game light up thingy tells me are the better units and I always lose. I am trying to figure out HOW the "strong vs" units are NOT the default to try and what makes up the diff.
 
And what people meant by Terrain, is not modifiers, but how it is laid out. You can easily have your path to the enemy blocked by bad terrain directly in front of you or they can have terrain to hide behind and use their ranged attacks while you try to get closer. But then, you can get the same benefit from terrain in fights that look difficult. And even if you are a mobile player and can only use auto-battle, the terrain is still there to get in the way, even though you have no way at all to look at it.
So the answer is only battle on the desktop and not in auto-mode?
I tried that a few times that turns this into like some totally diff game and I had no idea what was going on... cuz like the enemy moves around wasting half my units and I can't do anything in the mean time, and then when I can I'm trying to figure out like how to get whatev where it should go doing what they do and I never seem to get anything killed at all but my own ppl. lol

But I've never seen it not like let troops move and stuff. What sorta "terrain" stuff is it? What should I look for, or look to avoid?
 

Fayeanne

Well-Known Member
Be careful with those icons showing you the weaknesses, because the icons are shown for "about even" along with advantages. "About even" isn't really terribly good; you're better off using units that are specialized against the opponents.

In the particular match-up shown, "technically" you are intended to use Light Melee. Why? They are specialized (not just "about even") against two of the three unit types, or 75% of the enemy force. However, as noted here by others, Light Melee are the worst units in the game when it comes to fighting units they are supposed to be specialized against. The Heavy Ranged counters tend to tear them to pieces. (Though Light Ranged will fare even more poorly, due to being only "about even" to 50% of the enemies and horribly weak against 2 of them.) So even when using the "correct" unit, with Light Melee you should always expect heavy losses.

Personally, in a match-up like that I'd try Golems or Orc Strategists. They're only "about even" to the enemy Heavy Ranged and weak to the mages, but they should take out the Light Ranged handily, which are in the greatest abundance in that particular fight. You'll still lose a lot of units though. If you are going to fight manually, you can add in a couple of archers, but it's important they take out the mages first and avoid the enemy Heavy Ranged, which the AI might not do.

Short answer: Scrolls and Magic Dust are difficult provinces; expect to get much higher losses than usual. Personally, I'd save resources to cater those and then fight the other provinces instead. (Though you should have reasonable success fighting the matches that are only archers and mages; send in 5 Light Melee units in that case.)
 
I can't do orcs yet, even my orc city JUST got there... so it's gonna have to be golems. :/

Is there like a full list or table somewhere to help show what is better vs what- in a better way than that pentagon thingy and those light up deals, since they're a little bit misleading, too.


I'll have to like find one of those "easier" matches... cuz like so far, I don't think in the 2 years I've played... that I have EVER won a battle. It's that confusing to me.... LOL Which is why I'm trying to like make sense of the pentagon and light up dealies that don't actually tell you the truth entirely... cuz that's super hard to make sense of since it's NOT very helpful.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
Instead of a pentagon, I think of it more linearly. When you're looking at troops in the training camp, each type of unit is supposed to be strong against the next two in line, and equal to its own kind.
  • Light melee strong against light ranged and mages
  • Light ranged strong against mages and heavy melee
  • Mages strong against heavy melee and heavy ranged
  • Heavy melee strong against heavy ranged and light melee
  • Heavy ranged strong against light melee and light ranged
The details are more complicated than that. But that's the basics of which type is stronger according to the pentagon.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
So the answer is only battle on the desktop and not in auto-mode?
I tried that a few times that turns this into like some totally diff game and I had no idea what was going on... cuz like the enemy moves around wasting half my units and I can't do anything in the mean time, and then when I can I'm trying to figure out like how to get whatev where it should go doing what they do and I never seem to get anything killed at all but my own ppl. lol

But I've never seen it not like let troops move and stuff. What sorta "terrain" stuff is it? What should I look for, or look to avoid?
No, I never use manual battle anymore. The last time I used that was before they did a supposed "rebalancing" of combat a couple of years ago that may have helped the actual fighting, but made the loading time and the actual fighting in browser take much longer and laggier. And then when I tried auto-fighting, it did not go so well at that time either, so between probably chapters 5 and 9, I catered everything. Somewhere around chapter 9 or 10, I tried auto-fighting some and it went much better, and now in chapter 15, I almost never cater or negotiate, but I also have AWs and other buildings that boost my combat ability, which makes it much easier too.

Also, if you are far enough into the game to have the Magic Academy, keep checking the crafting section for a building that I can never remember the name correctly, but it's initials are UUU, I think. When you put it out in your city, it boosts the health of all your troops by 25% and lasts for 5 days, so an entire tournament. In the early chapters, where you are, you will be amazed how many troops you stop losing with one of those out.

And the terrain is those hills you see on the map when you go to manual fight. Those obstacles that you have to move your troops around or can hide your troops behind. In the worst layouts, those hills can make the easiest fights difficult to win, especially with the flawed AI that the game uses for movement and target priority.

Like others said, it is not really a pentagon, but a weird triangle. Each of the five troop types has two other types they are strong against, two they are weak against, and one they are equal to. That strength or weakness has a rating of 1 to 5, depending on the unit's level, which has a range of 1 to 3, and whether it is a Barracks, Training Grounds, or Mercenary Camp unit.
 
nstead of a pentagon, I think of it more linearly.
So it's like a hardcore Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock sorta deal?

keep checking the crafting section for a building that I can never remember the name correctly, but it's initials are UUU, I think.
Thanks for that tip. I'll totally try and keep an eye out. :)

Be careful with those icons showing you the weaknesses, because the icons are shown for "about even" along with advantages. "About even" isn't really terribly good; you're better off using units that are specialized against the opponents.
Soooo gonna need to make like a table or cheat sheet... I see this, I look for what to use kinda thingy. lol
 

NightshadeCS

Well-Known Member
I remember the good old days of absolute confusion in battles. After several years, I got a sort of "feel" for what works. I am still a bad fighter, but have enough troops and goods now that it doesn't tend to matter.

I catered only for MANY chapters. Once I got a good way into guest races and my troops upgraded and AWs were providing some boosts, I was finally ready to start battling. It got a lot easier. You're not alone in your frustration, for sure!
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
I can never remember the name correctly, but it's initials are UUU
Unleashed unit upgrade

There's also an ELR (enhanced light range) and MMM (magnificent mage multiplier) that boost those troops, specifically. And in the spire, you can get a dwarven armorer, which is basically 2 UUUs together.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
Also, if you haven't already read Mykan's combat guide pinned to the top of this section, it's a pretty straightforward yet comprehensive explanation of fighting mechanics and strategy.
 
Also, if you haven't already read Mykan's combat guide pinned to the top of this section, it's a pretty straightforward yet comprehensive explanation of fighting mechanics and strategy.
I haven't, but I will look for it. Is it in the "welcome" thread? Cuz that's the only pinned one I'm seeing...

Edit: Nvm... found a link in his sig block. :)
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
I can't do orcs yet, even my orc city JUST got there... so it's gonna have to be golems. :/
Tip: Check the MA for crafting, you can craft a grounds of orc strategist and a vallorian vallor. These give you free troops that aren't unlocked in the tech tree until chapters 8 (orc strats) and 10 (vallorians). Very useful buildings for early access but also for free troops.

Is there like a full list or table somewhere to help show what is better vs what- in a better way than that pentagon thingy and those light up deals, since they're a little bit misleading, too.
Threads below might be what you want, is a video in combat 201 that shows things in a different way to combat pentagon, might help.

Soooo gonna need to make like a table or cheat sheet... I see this, I look for what to use kinda thingy. lol
Something like this?


If you are feeling super overwhelmed just go to combat 101, it is a little simpler. Combat 201 is still very simple but adds a bit more. I personally still refer to the combat 201 chart most weeks (reminds me what troops to train). Some people have told me they went from no wins to 80% winning with the charts as they began to learn combat. Hope they are helpful.

Gems of knowledge website also has some great information about tournaments.

As to maps don't stress, bad ones happen but they are not that frequent. While some top tourny players use manual there are also plenty who auto-combat due to sheer volume of fights and time. If your fighting spire however then manual combat might be worth it, AI failure there can cripple your army.
 
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Tip: Check the MA for crafting, you can craft a grounds of orc strategist and a vallorian vallor. These give you free troops that aren't unlocked in the tech tree until chapters 8 (orc strats) and 10 (vallorians). Very useful buildings for early access but also for free troops.
I have the valorian thingy giving me what look like alligators. lol I won that vallorian valor thingy in an event I think... forever ago. What grounds do I need to craft to make Orc Strategist? Aren't those a research locked troop I can train later?

Sorta kinda... was thinking more like a list of unit I might fight and like a "This or This" list for what to use for each... so like if they have casters mostly, to know WHICH "strong vs casters" one to use mostly... and like to know what was what between them. But these links I am gonna look over a lot more first. I was thinking, too, less just "tourney" but just combat in general- more troop/unit type specifically.

If you are feeling super overwhelmed just go to combat 101, it is a little simpler. Combat 201 is still very simple but adds a bit more. I personally still refer to the combat 201 chart most weeks (reminds me what troops to train). Some people have told me they went from no wins to 80% winning with the charts as they began to learn combat. Hope they are helpful.

Gems of knowledge website also has some great information about tournaments.
I have seen that site and it's handy... looks like they advise a super troop for each thingy (I've only watched two tourney's vids- and both were "use this type for all battles" and was like ONE unit type - gonna keep watching).

And yeah SUPER overwhelmed cuz like the icon thingies in that pentagon are only like PART of the story and it's ALL the game tells you and makes it sound like IT is the biggest piece, but it's seeming more and more like other stuff is more important in many ways. :/

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Thanks for all your help! <3
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
The grounds of the orc strategist is a craft-able building in the MA that provide you with orc strategists, can be crafted in any chapter.

Province and tournament combat is the same as their enemy mix is identical, just different squad sizes. Spire is much more complex and much larger costs for making a mistake.

An alternate way to remember the pentagon is to think more in terms of a circle or a line
The units in the army camp and battle selection appear in the below order:
1577821578316.png
1577821587387.png
1577821594475.png
1577821602338.png
1577821609037.png

If you think of this as a longer line (or a circle which I can't draw in the forum)
1577821578316.png
1577821587387.png
1577821594475.png
1577821602338.png
1577821609037.png
1577821578316.png
1577821587387.png
1577821594475.png
1577821602338.png
1577821609037.png


Then pick any unit type. That unit will always be best against the two unit types to its right and weak to the 2 to its left. For example
1577821578316.png
is strong against
1577821587387.png
1577821594475.png
but;
1577821578316.png
is weak to
1577821602338.png
1577821609037.png


There is a similar way to see this same pattern with the specialty troops, think I explain it in the video in combat 201. Stick with this before trying to understand the specialists. Even just knowing which unit for which tournament will get you started. As you start to fight and win you will learn what works and see when enemy combinations cause you to lose.
 

Fayeanne

Well-Known Member
I do think tournaments are a good place to practice combat because at the earlier levels, the squad sizes are so much smaller, so even if you lose, you lose fewer units overall and thus it takes less time to train replacements.

And don't feel bad. In an earlier tournament (I think it was Magic Dust) I was using auto-fight with Light Melee and they lost the third match of the first province of the tournament. All other unit types can reach the second page of provinces before they start losing matches. Light Melee is that bad.

You'll have much better luck with provinces that favor Heavy Melee and Heavy Ranged, for example. Or even Light Ranged. Or really, anything but Light Melee provinces.

Really quick and dirty:
Province type (world map or tournament) and unit type to use:
- Planks: Heavy Ranged
- Steel: Light Ranged
- Marble: Mage
- Silk: Heavy Melee
- Scrolls: Light Melee (negotiate these)
- Crystal: Heavy Melee
- Gems: Mage
- Magic Dust: Light Melee (negotiate these)
- Elixir: Heavy Ranged

This will not always work due to the random unit types. Every province picks from up to 3 different unit types for the enemy, and since this mix is random, it is possible, for example, for a battle in Gems to consist of nothing but Light Ranged which will decimate your Mages. For those types of matches, you can either try to figure out the counter unit to use (e.g. Heavy Ranged if all of the enemies are Light Ranged) or just negotiate those particular matches.

This should hopefully at least get you started!
 
An alternate way to remember the pentagon is to think more in terms of a circle or a line
The units in the army camp and battle selection appear in the below order:
I am gonna print that and hopefully it'll help me. It still doesn't quite make sense to me... I mean WHY have two that everything is weak vs if you have to stop and figure out WHICH is the better one to use cuz both aren't actually "strong vs" but "strong'ish and stronger" seem to be more what's happening. So gonna make a cheat sheet. lol

I do think tournaments are a good place to practice combat because at the earlier levels, the squad sizes are so much smaller, so even if you lose, you lose fewer units overall and thus it takes less time to train replacements.

And don't feel bad. In an earlier tournament (I think it was Magic Dust) I was using auto-fight with Light Melee and they lost the third match of the first province of the tournament. All other unit types can reach the second page of provinces before they start losing matches. Light Melee is that bad.
I tried that in a tourney... using unit that are supposed to be strong vs and still lost, bad. Still can't figure out how to win these stupid things. LOL
And if light melee is "that bad"- how are they strong against ANYTHING AT ALL?! Why are they even there!? And why does the game (and the wiki) tell us they aren't, that they like are good vs some units if they just suck and don't actually do what the game and wiki tell us they are supposed to?! It's stuff like that that confuses me so bad.