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    Your Elvenar Team

Need help with basics

Yeah... I just don't get it. If terrain (I see it on there) is soooooo bad for my units, why aren't there's gonna suffer just as bad?!

So I totally don't understand this game's thinking.
Better stars? Check. More units? Check. Strong vs? Check.

There is NO logic to this at all. Even with those bushes, the range is the same for their ranged my mages. My mages are faster (much better initiative).
 

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THAT was in a FIRST ROUND 0-star combat... I have done NOTHING yet in the event.

I had 3 star vs 1 star, more units out there, strong vs with FOUR SWORDS out of five.

HOW?! How can I make sense of this?!

Looking at these numbers... I don't get it. I do 14k damage per attack, they have 3300 life (the ranged ppl). They do 1270, I've got like 49k life. That's like 38 attacks to kill my units that SHOULD be doing one-shot kills.
I've got 5 to their 4... they outnumber me 50 to 51. ONE troop more.

What the heck makes sense about?! The range is 3 vs 4 in MY favor- so if they could hit my units, they could be hit BY my units, too.
 

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On a side note, if it is your Felyndral city you're working on, I would be happy to do a KP swap with you. My Martial Moonastery is at level 23 (requiring nearly 1200 KP for another level), so to guarantee the top chest, we'd probably have to trade about 300 to 400 points, but you'd get those back in the AW of your choice, and at the end you'd get 4 MM shards and 75KP worth of ancient wonder instants.
Sure, IDK I can get 400 KPs quickly, that's a lot and will take a bit. :) But I'm willing to do it - how can I swap KPs with you if you're not in my FS?
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
THAT was in a FIRST ROUND 0-star combat... I have done NOTHING yet in the event.

I had 3 star vs 1 star, more units out there, strong vs with FOUR SWORDS out of five.

HOW?! How can I make sense of this?!
It should come out in your favour. I can't be sure without playing it myself, but the terrain is pretty wonky. On auto-fight, the mages may be rushing forward down the abattoir chute on the bottom. My inclination if fighting manually would be to hang back first round, let all of the opponents move, then try to keep them bottled up in the one-hex pass at the bottom left.

Sure, IDK I can get 400 KPs quickly, that's a lot and will take a bit. :) But I'm willing to do it - how can I swap KPs with you if you're not in my FS?
I'm not particular how long it takes. Several weeks doesn't bother me. You can donate KP to anyone on your world. I'll send you a PM in game to make it easier than looking each other up all the time.
 
It should come out in your favour. I can't be sure without playing it myself, but the terrain is pretty wonky. On auto-fight, the mages may be rushing forward down the abattoir chute on the bottom. My inclination if fighting manually would be to hang back first round, let all of the opponents move, then try to keep them bottled up in the one-hex pass at the bottom left.
Well I lost, and 12 of their ranged ppl somehow survived. I don't get that. the math seems to say NO WAY possible. Cuz they had one LESS range, tons less life and damage...
THIS is what makes it stupid hard to figure out how this works.

I'll try manual later (never done that and I SUCK at tactics games, but will try). Cuz this is soooooo stupid. The AI is totally hosing me I think.

I'm not particular how long it takes. Several weeks doesn't bother me. You can donate KP to anyone on your world. I'll send you a PM in game to make it easier than looking each other up all the time.
Ok. So like I'll look you up later. My game name is AlaskanSunflower. :)

I am gonna go for a bit. This latest battle fiasco is giving me a headache trying to make sense of it.
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
But again, Mykan noted these should be used, the Gems page did, etc. I just don't know WHY... and why they lost if they shouldn't have.
I have noted the best (in general terms) unit type for each tournament province. There are so many variables I can't recommend every variation without seen the specific fight. In this particular case I have mentioned I would have used a completely different set of units and I have explained why.

Using the basics isn't a 100% guaranteed win (as mentioned) but it will start to get you winning more often than not. You learn as you go both by when you win and when you lose. You will start to work out which situations require a different set-up and which of the 3 units in a unit type are better in which situations. As in this specific case drone riders or sword dancers. As you get more comfortable with the basics you will learn when some alternate choices can be used as well or more effectively than the basics, again in this specific case the orc strategist (or golem).

You also learn a bit more about the AI. For example it appears to perform better if you have 5 of one unit then mix and match. Of course some fights require mix and match but you need to learn when it is better to mix and match or stick to 5 of the same.
 
You also learn a bit more about the AI. For example it appears to perform better if you have 5 of one unit then mix and match. Of course some fights require mix and match but you need to learn when it is better to mix and match or stick to 5 of the same.
Sad, but not surprising. The ai is dreadful.

I might even have been tempted to do it with archers, as they may have been able to stay out of range while clearing the field, despite being weaker than the three orcs.
What I learned was AI is stupid. It walked into enemy firing range without attacking, despite having BETTER range than the enemy. Got attacked FIRST cuz of this. Then on subsequent turns had the units MOVE back and forth over a turn or two WITHOUT ATTACKING. Generally winding up nearly or exactly where they began that or the prior turn. It was idiotic.

When I moved into range, got attacked (ooops), the next turn I opened up and slaughtered things. Clearly AI is pathetic and skewed to hurt you. Cuz there's NO excuse for it choosing to MOVE uselessly when there are targets it COULD attack. *smh*
 
Using the basics isn't a 100% guaranteed win (as mentioned) but it will start to get you winning more often than not. You learn as you go both by when you win and when you lose. You will start to work out which situations require a different set-up and which of the 3 units in a unit type are better in which situations. As in this specific case drone riders or sword dancers. As you get more comfortable with the basics you will learn when some alternate choices can be used as well or more effectively than the basics, again in this specific case the orc strategist (or golem).
I think the problem there was basics were NOT working at all. I was losing when the basics and my stats should have won- like that AI debacle one I just had. Cuz like there was NO reason I should have lost when it was taking several attacks to kill ONE stack, but one of my stacks could wipe out their's in ONE hit. That was the AI basically just being stupid and letting me get killed when it COULD HAVE (and should have) won.

Since manual has worked three times- despite I'm super clueless about like all the crazy variables and stuff... I am gonna have to just do it. I totally can't rely on AI to even be barely competent, much less moderately successful. :/
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
I totally can't rely on AI to even be barely competent, much less moderately successful. :/
The thing to remember is that on average, the ai will work out in your favour if you pick the right troops. The problem will be that when it fails, it feels like a spectacular fail, because you lose everything and can't pick it up and proceed. The balance comes in using auto-combat when it looks like a guaranteed win, and stepping in when it fails.

Manual combat is hugely superior to automatic, but it's also a huge time waste, when about 75% of the time, the end result will be nearly the same. You have to decide if you can tolerate the 25% irritation factor in order to save yourself a bunch of time to do something else.
 

Darielle

Well-Known Member
So you don't do this fight until you have Orc Strategist? I don't have those yet- a few techs away in the orc city, and the other is only in dwarves.

So is this really a matter of me just being waaaaaay too early to think about combat at all!?
I thought I was too early, but I was surprised at how do-able the auto fights were in the "medium" provinces. (I won't attempt the "hard" ones; I always cater those.) I think it's a matter of just following the guidelines for fights and then getting a whole lot of luck in execution. I wish you that luck, Alaskan.
 

Fayeanne

Well-Known Member
Just for the sake of understanding:

On the browser, open the blue "i" icon card of a Cerberus in your barracks army camp. You'll see that "Best against" and the green "Light Ranged" and purple "Mage Units." Point the mouse at the green bar and it should pop up a tooltip. This tells you exactly what bonuses the Cerberus gets against Light Ranged. What you see will vary depending on how far advanced your city is, but for mine, I see just:

Dealt against Light Ranged Unit: +30%

Contrast with their rating for mage units:

Dealt against Mage Units: +70%
Taken from Mage Units: -40%

You can see they're a lot better against mages. They have a defense against mages (mage attacks do 40% less damage than normal) but they don't have any defenses against Light Ranged.

The way unit classifications work is every unit has these sorts of bonuses against exactly two other unit types. Those two types are the ones the unit is said to be "best against" but the actual bonuses vary. These two types are also what form the "pentagram" because all you're doing, basically, is drawing lines from units to the two that they have bonuses against. Keep in mind no unit type has bonuses against more (or fewer) than two unit types. It forms a very definite pattern.

One thing that I have noticed about the AI is it appears to always try to move the farthest distance it can that still puts it into range of whatever target it has decided to hit. I don't know why it does this. You can see it in action when playing manual: If you are issuing a command to one of your units, and you point the mouse at an enemy that your unit is not in range to hit, you will be shown the movement path the game is proposing for you, and the place where the AI tries to move the unit is almost always insane. If you are going to fight in manual I suggest always being careful to move your units yourself and not let the computer decide their movements. (Your units won't move if they are already within range, so sometimes you may have to move them bit by bit first, then click the target once you're within range.)

By the way, Sorceress has attack range of 3 and movement range of 4. :) You can point at the icons to see the text saying what the icon stands for.

I have Orc Strategists in all of my cities already by crafting a Grounds of the Orc Strategist from the Magic Academy. But, they are only 1 star. Still useful though.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
One thing that I have noticed about the AI is it appears to always try to move the farthest distance it can that still puts it into range of whatever target it has decided to hit. I don't know why it does this
I believe this is the result of code to avoid having to check if the enemy has strike back. It just assumes every enemy will hit back if it can.
 

KarlD

Well-Known Member
Looking at these numbers... I don't get it. I do 14k damage per attack, they have 3300 life (the ranged ppl). They do 1270, I've got like 49k life. That's like 38 attacks to kill my units that SHOULD be doing one-shot kills.
I've got 5 to their 4... they outnumber me 50 to 51. ONE troop more.

What the heck makes sense about?! The range is 3 vs 4 in MY favor- so if they could hit my units, they could be hit BY my units, too.
DO NOT try to use the numbers from the Unit Information window for your own troops during tournament. The numbers there are for a squad the size of your squadsize as shown if you click on your Barracks and then the Army Camp tab. That's the squadsize you use when you fight encounters on the world map. The squadsizes in tournaments vary and are NOT reflected in that window. However I believe the Unit Information for the enemy troops does reflect the squadsize being used. So early on in a tournament your squadsize will be smaller than your world map squadsize and you will appear to have much better numbers than you actually have. You won't actually know the numbers for a given fight until you get into the fight and hover over your troops at the bottom of the window.
 
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Pheryll

Well-Known Member
I don't think this is accurate. @Mykan @CrazyWizard @Pheryll @Ashrem
?? @ anybody who's better at this stuff than me, lol!
I think what he is saying is the attack and hp numbers found when examining one of your units before placing it in a tournament line up are given for a regular squad, while the info bubble from hovering over the unit size shows the tournament squad size.

In this case @AlaskanSunflower should divide the attack and hp by 20 as the first tournament province uses 1/20th of your squad size for the tournament squad size. Thus her sorceresses deal 718-1078 damage and have 2460 health.
 
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Ashrem

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't know. The attack and defence numbers might as well be hieroglyphics to me. The only time I look at them is to see if the percentage bonus is what I expect it to be, or if I've forgotten to feed the phoenix.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I think the problem there was basics were NOT working at all. I was losing when the basics and my stats should have won- like that AI debacle one I just had. Cuz like there was NO reason I should have lost when it was taking several attacks to kill ONE stack, but one of my stacks could wipe out their's in ONE hit. That was the AI basically just being stupid and letting me get killed when it COULD HAVE (and should have) won.

Since manual has worked three times- despite I'm super clueless about like all the crazy variables and stuff... I am gonna have to just do it. I totally can't rely on AI to even be barely competent, much less moderately successful. :/
The AI on both sides is the same, if your units would wait, so would the enemies units.
When you know how the AI behaves you can adjust your troops towards that behavior, or use it to your massive advantage in manual mode.

The second issue is pathfinding, maps have a massive impact on the result, something you can't control in auto mode.
Maps also cause pathfinding issues, you can again use this to your advantage in manual mode, and try to work around it in auto mode.

1 example is that I prefer to use watchers in heavy melee tournaments instead of treants, treants suffer from weird losses due to pathfinding issues.
The 1 range from the watchers eleminate there random unexplainable losses in most cases therefore my overall losses are lower.
 

ALLINNA

New Member
I usually do not need help in battle but today I need really some help, since this kind of formation I have never seen. I know in the SoE the bosses/ guards are harder to fight but normally the first and second wave are pretty similar; however, today it was not. See picture below.

I really would like to know what kind of troops I should have sent in, so that I could have won?

I sent in 2 Heavy Melee Units, 1 Mage, 1 Light Range Unit and 1 Light Melee Unit. I usually would have sent in 2 Light Melee Units but I had not enough time to freaking produce them.

After the first wave, I was only left with my 2 Heavy Melee Units and obviously they did not had a change in the second wave since for them I needed the Light Units, which I have lost in the first wave. I am really :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: since the SoE has become harder anyways but now introducing in the first stage/level of it such a very different combination of troops for 1. and 2. wave is just really sh****.

In my opinion there is no way to really win this battle, since the 1. wave and 2. wave are so complete different because the key unit from the 1. wave has been replaced with secondary unit (counter unit).

Help in this case will be really appreciated. (I hope I am in the right thread now)

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