Needles of the Tempest vs Martial Monastery

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Right, missed that one
@MinMax Gamer re mountain halls.
I have a spreadsheet floating around showing how good it is somewhere, but the basic idea is that due to a factories TRUE SIZE being around 150-200 squares once you count workshops, residences culture and roads, the production from Mountain halls is better per square as long as it affects 6+ factories.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet..._aF9cnqUYN_6a1ksQDsbNNfZ8vI/edit?usp=drivesdk

That's not the best one, but all I can find atm

OK, that did take some time to deconstruct. I see what you're trying to do here, and math looks reasonable. You're underestimating planks size though as you refer to workshop pop requirements instead of actual planks. I haven't been validating the calcs, that's just one thing I noticed. It doesn't materially change the outcome.

TL;DR: So let's say that calculations are correct. I do not necessarily agree with conclusions though, and as in most of modeling, it boils down to assumptions. So here we go.

You assume that we support factories with regular residences, workshops and culture. So let's look where effective calculated size requirements are coming from. Direct culture requirements are not material, so whatever. Direct manufactories size is a given, so that's fine. This leaves indirect requirements of space for pop and supplies, and these dwarf the other components. But does it make sense? I can agree on residences used for pop requirements (because *I* primarily use straight residences for pop ), but if someone relies on event buildings and AWs for pop to a significant degree, their effective space requirements for pop can be significantly lower.

Which brings us to supply requirements. 1/3rd of total effective space comes from that. Let's step back a bit, and see what your projections tell us. If I am not mistaken, according to your calcs you're saying that in order to support 2/2/2 manufacturing setup (one of the smallest that can be reasonably used), you need to have basically 5 fully upgraded workshops, dedicated just for running goods production. This means that supplies for troop productions, build/upgrades, research activation are on top of that. Let's just say that this is not very believable. This way, I'd need to have probably 20 fully upgraded workshops to support all supply needs. I don't know any cities that run with such setup.

The reason for that is not that the math is incorrect (even though that is always an option ), but the aggregate supply production for most cities - and certainly efficient ones - is a lot more, um, space-efficient than straight workshops. Whether you do PoPs, AWs, special buildings or (oh horror ) quest cycling, you gain a lot more supplies than your calculations would assume. Heck, I can run the whole city (not just production) with a dozen of L1 WS on quest cycling alone. I don't, but I can. And I never had more than 6 of reasonably upgraded workshops, and I am capped on supplies most of the time. And I don't even notice supply requirements for production in 3/2/2 setup - comparing to troop production and research/upgrades.

So there is that. Now there is another side to all this, and that's applicability of per-tile analysis to making actual decisions. Per-tile analysis works well in cases where your domain is infinitely divisible, or at least meaningfully so (e.g. residences). It gets a lot less clear cut where your units are discrete and chunky, like 1 or 2 manufactories. Ultimately, our decisions need to operate in terms of whole buildings and space constraints of the cities.

Basically, we have hard space constraints. Ultimately, the primary reason to get more efficiency from different setups is to reduce space needed to achieve your target rate that you need to support your objectives. There is no reason to absolutely maximize production as you will get bottlenecks elsewhere. There is no downside in using higher efficiency setups when you operate in infinitely divisible units. You can get higher production in the same space, you can get same production in smaller space, or anything in between, but you can get in a place that is strictly better than your less efficient per tile setup. E.g. if I get a 3% pop improvement on my residences, and I have 30 of them, then I can drop 1 of them and get the same pop in less space. Or just keep all of them, and get 3% more pop in the same space.

Now, this is not necessarily true for more discrete cases. So let's look at decisions that you can make in the manufactories cases. Let's start with 1 manufactory setup (for each boost) - somewhat extreme, but not unrealistic. You obviously cannot reduce your space requirements of this setup with MH, even at L100 - you can't drop any of your manufactories as MH will have nothing to boost. You can in theory reduce your collection frequency to reduce supply requirements, but similar logic would apply there as well. Also, collection cycles generally are not driven by those considerations.

So building MH in this case strictly increases utilized space (by the size of MH) because you're not dropping anything else (unless you're dropping residences as you get pop boost). For that, you're getting a rather lackluster increase in production - even though it might be efficient at some point.

Bottom line is, until MH is leveled enough so that it can save you a whole manufactory (which is unlikely to ever happen in lean setups like 2/2/2) you're not saving space (compare with EE or PT which do, as you can drop a whole WS there). Your production efficiency may go up a bit, but in a larger footprint. L1 gives you 3% total production increase; and it doesn't get much better until much later (and that's tons of KPs). Low-level MH just doesn't move the needle. If you had sufficient goods before MH you still have sufficient goods, just a tad more (but with less space). If you did not have sufficient goods, low-level MH is not going to change that.

So for me, with 3/2/2 setup, MH turned out to be pretty disappointing. I have more than enough goods with or without MH. MH is not significant enough to drop any of the manufactories. Extra pop is nice, but again, at lower levels is nothing to write home about.

YMMV.

 

[Pheryll]

The Mountain Halls and Shrine of the Shrewdy Shrooms are two wonders that I am keeping my eye on calculation-wise, as these wonders appear that they can be (and are starting to be) reduced to insignificance merely from the direction the game is going.

As you progress to later chapters:
1) There is an increased reliance on supply producing wonders and less dependence on workshops. There are many reasons for this, the biggest one is that workshops will not keep up with SS techs proportionately, while main hall capacity changes (from woodelves onward) significantly outdo the SS techs proportionately.
2) There is less need for normal manufactories; set buildings can easily take over.
3) Armories in the construct chapter look like they will set a troublesome trend; and the fix to armories did not address it, so this is possibly long term.
4) The shrooms wonder is mathematically set to decline in prominence with respect to the bulwark as the chapters progress. I had thought that the armories would keep getting smaller to counter this trend.

 

[Nyrva]

Scholar
The absolute worst wonders are imo:

• Maze/Enars-every event offers a building that is far far better per square at mana production.
• Thrones- not terrible for culture, but every KP invested would better be spent elsewhere.
• Blooming trader- if you win 1 trading post per event you are better off than having a level 11 BTG. And you save 17 squares. No, the wholesale reduction isn't great, go buy KP instead
• Pyramid-craft a vallorian vallor or 2 instead. It needs to be at least level 9 to beat VV, and those KP could be better spent.
• LoGN- very niche wonder with a fatal flaw: you need buffs on mana buildings which generally arent your best culture buildings. If someone has a strategy where this wonder makes sense, I'd love to hear it.
• Sunset towers- this wonder comes far too late to be of any use. The need for seeds drops dramatically in Amuni, so if there isn't a massive increase in seed requirements for chapter 14 it's a rather pointless wonder.

Then come the other culture wonders. If you like the super efficient culture&pop hybrids from events and get about 30-40%+ of your pop from them, then you will have no need for pure culture buildings in your city meaning the watch tower and lighthouse combo has no value as you won't need any culture buffs to hit 150% bonus- this is an especially effective strategy for players in more casual FS where they can't count on a lot of visits as they will see a better return after about 20-30% pop from hybrids.
If, for some reason, you don't do events, or choose other event buildings than the hybrids, then YMMV.

"No brainers"

• EE, PT, ToS. Each of them are better than workshops at level 1(with extremely rare exceptions like making bread 24/7, only collecting from PT once a day, and 72H+ scout times)
• Shrewdly shrooms- this building is an absolute must have if you want to use military. Even at level 1 it's better than a third armory, and it takes up zero pop.
• Dwarven bulwark-generally KP invested in the shrewdly is better than the dwarven bulwark, but you might unlock the bulwark months earlier which makes this a great wonder until then, and if you level it, it's not worth deleting.
• Needles-again, only military, but most troops come from barracks, and once you reach a point where your barracks level is always at max, then the only way to get more troops is this wonder(or crafting)
• Monastery/sanctuary after the shrewdly this is hands down the best military wonder. The only way to gain an advantage over the enemy in tournaments is to have buffed troops, and this is the only wonder that buffs all of them.
• Mountain halls- any build that has at least 6 factories is better off building a MThall than building a 7th factory. The more factories the better it is, and that's not even counting the pop it gives you.
• Golden abyss-as mentioned above, once this gives better pop per square than a house (around chapter 5/6) it's an obvious win.

Special mention

• Dragon abbey-a really cool wonder where you can get instant mana by spamming spells. The problem is that crafting might get better and better and the CC spell doesn't give mana. Also, you need to run your magic academy pretty much 24/7 to build up enough spells to make it useful meaning a greater commitment to the tournament for needed relics. Finally, you can't really use this as your only mana source and use spells often( like constant PoP or MM)
• All other military wonders. If you get heavy into the tournaments, then you'll want to start adding in either the wonders that shore up your weak spots (human heavy ranged+toads) or doubles down on your strengths (dogs+victory springs) as space allows.
• Elvenar trade center- good for getting needed seeds in elementals, but much less needed in Amuni...but the boost to MM is quite powerful, so I'd say it's playstyle dependent.

A quick note about the "build them all" strategy: it's true that every wonder is better than not having it(ignoring space efficiency), but if you build them all then you will largely have luck dictate which ones you can level up.
Without some skipped wonders like the lighthouse or thrones that you can use to smash runes and fill wanted wonders, you need a combination of luck, patience or diamonds to get the runes you need.

Edit: mobile only this week, so nothing specifically new but still good info I think.

I saw the post by SoggyShorts, and also by Minimax Gamer that followed. I've read this along with the last several replies. And thank you for all of it, a lot of useful information here.I'm definitely going to be looking at this for a few AWs I don't have yet but am thinking about.

But I haven't seen anyone make a strong case for keeping the Tome of Ancient Secrets. (I've got my itchy finger on the sell button for that one.)

It would have to be something better than just the 1KP it produces every 24 hours, because I have other things that do that too. Example, the Carting Library- takes up much less space. And while it only lasts 100 days, the culture increases when you get new ones. I got 1 or 2 still in hock as I do the Wishing Well.

Tome of Ancient Secrets - worth having? Why or why not? What does it do for me for Chapters VII and later? I want to get rid of it. But I'm curious to see what anyone thinks, especially if you say it's a bad idea.

Oh, I did try to put in a ticket about my phoenix buildings I DE'd, and they essentially said "sorry about your luck". They also could not confirm if there will be additional chances to win these buildings again. So I guess that's a next year thing for me. But considering my town was just a starter city just over 11 months ago, I could be at Chapter 12 or 13 by then. Would it be relevant at that point? I've seen cities of people at those chapters- will I even have the space to consider it at that point?

I'll put it this way- I've already expanded so far out, that right now, I can't even barter newly-scouted areas unless I either have orcs, or buy diamonds. Luckily I'm 3 research tomes away from unlocking the chest to Chapter VIII. But who knows how long it will be before I can upgrade all my military buildings and produce orcs. Until then, I am maxed on my expanding.

https://www.elvenstats.com/player/us2/1283068

This link is my progress in the game since last July. If you want to know what my progress is like, I started in my FS within a month of starting my city, and I'm now 2nd ranking in my Fellowship. If things continue as they've been going, I expect to soon take the number one position in ranking in the Fellowship. It's a pretty casual group I'm in, and the people are pretty cool. But I like the FS I'm in.

I don't join the more serious ones because I hear they like to tell you what you can or cannot have in your city if you want to join them. (I play World of Warcraft and it's like guilds who try and tell you what character classes you're "allowed" to play. That's just a big turnoff to me. It's not fun to me.) I guess I'm just playing this thing for all its worth with growing my city. But to me fun with the game is still the number one rule. I still consider myself a "casual" player despite my progress. So I want a little of the "silly stuff" on my city with a few of the culture buildings. But that's another conversation.

I also realize to have a few of the "fun" buildings and still grow well enough, you need a lot of stuff that "earns its keep". To do that, I have to be more practical in other aspects.

So if the Tome isn't worth having, I'd rather have something better. I disenchanted my phoenix buildings because I didn't believe they would be better than my AWs. If I have a chance to get the fire phoenix again at least, I'll definitely take a crack at it and I'll hang on to any other materials I win for now in case I can get another one. If not, I'll DE all that stuff when the contest ends.

I haven't gotten rid of my Needles. I want to- but if it's worth keeping for military purposes then it will stay. If there are better AWs I can pick up later that will be better, I'd rather know about those.

Do all the benefits stack?

I'm just now about to unlock the research on the Dwarven Bulwark for example. But for production and neighborly help I'm also eyeing up Prosperity Towers for example.

And, a less serious note: the Martial Monastery, Crystal Lighthouse and Mountain Halls that I have, on the PC version (not on the cell phone version) of the game, produce those really cool "giant versions" of themselves along those Northeastern bluffs of your city, making it look even more spiffy. I guess that's an added bonus.

OK, that's enough ranting from me for now, but I'm curious what you guys think. And I have found a lot of good notes here so again, thank you again.

Edit: Reading the notes on the Mountain Halls, do you think it possible I can scale back on 1 or 2 workshops? I have 5 Level 19s, 3 Level 17s and 1 Magic Workshop I'm sorry I ever bought -- it's like I got Fords and Chevys- easy to upgrade because I can go to any Auto Zone for parts (matter of speaking), then the one "Mercedes" sitting over there that I need "Mercedes" parts (i.e. diamonds) to upgrade it.

It seems between my Mountain Halls buffing production, and my Watchtower Ruins helping keep me constantly buffed at 125%, I just wonder if I can afford to bulldoze 1 or 2 of those buildings. But I also have 3 armories, my mercenary camp, and barracks all at their current maxed levels for chapter VII, and my new Mercenary camp with at least 1 upgrade.

I had to nix 1 of my 3 level 15 silk buildings to "afford" an upgrade to level 16 on one of them, but then the upgrade made up for what I gave up selling the first one.

I already asked about the houses, but can the workshops also work the same way? Thanks again.

 

[Ashrem]

Not sure what you mean here, there are too many variables missing - number of armories and levels, total squad size etc.

I have to agree. Squad size:armory capacity/KP to level is the only way of telling which is better, because at any given point the two use the same % factor to improve. Either 3.5% if you are buying the level with KP, or 7.5% if you are buying it with runes. Soggy can only be right with a with a large armory capacity vs squad size ratio, because theshrooms take twice as much KP to move form 23-24 as the Bulwark does from 6-7. The shrewms needs to be twice as effective just to break even. And in my case at least, the bulwark provides an increase of 59 vs 47 for the shrooms.

Bottom line is, until MH is leveled enough so that it can save you a whole manufactory (which is unlikely to ever happen in lean setups like 2/2/2) you're not saving space (compare with EE or PT which do, as you can drop a whole WS there). Your production efficiency may go up a bit, but in a larger footprint. L1 gives you 3% total production increase; and it doesn't get much better until much later (and that's tons of KPs). Low-level MH just doesn't move the needle. If you had sufficient goods before MH you still have sufficient goods, just a tad more (but with less space). If you did not have sufficient goods, low-level MH is not going to change that.

While you mentioned Pop earlier, you left it out of your bottom line. I bucked your identified trend, by removing 3 fully leveled residences to do halflings, because the mountain Halls (at level 16) is giving me more population than three level 27 residences.

I meant in between chapters like between Amuni and Constructs. You're dedicated to sitting around because there is nothing else to do except prep up for the next chapter - if you want to blitz it. Which is highly situational. I am not arguing the point that for the most part it is a poor value AW, I was pointing a scenario where it may make sense.

The problem is, unless you are talking about tearing it down and rebuilding it every time you have to wait for a new chapter, over time it can't really compete, so the limited situation is not a good test. The space has value whether you are waiting or progressing, so the opportunity cost is high.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

While you mentioned Pop earlier, you left it out of your bottom line. I bucked your identified trend, by removing 3 fully leveled residences to do halflings, because the mountain Halls (at level 16) is giving me more population than three level 27 residences

I didn't focus on that as Soggy's analysis excluded pop increase and focused on production benefits only. So you're right, the statement should be "save you a whole manufactory" to "save you some whole buildings which take more space than MH". Which in your case was true. But note L16 and Halflings. That's my point - it is not necessarily a bad AW per se, but it becomes useful quite a bit later, and needs to be leveled up quite a bit. And I think even leveled up its primary benefit is extra pop, not manufacturing boost (unless you're running huge manufactoring farm).

In earlier chapters low-levels of MH just don't make much sense to me.

 

[Ashrem]

In earlier chapters low-levels of MH just don't make much sense to me.

Nothing should appeal to everyone, or it's probably game-breaking.

I'm at my lowest Factory count since I hit T3, at 11 (and about to be 12, when I add sentient platinum shortly) So it's always been useful to me, and was the first thing I put KP into.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

The problem is, unless you are talking about tearing it down and rebuilding it every time you have to wait for a new chapter, over time it can't really compete, so the limited situation is not a good test. The space has value whether you are waiting or progressing, so the opportunity cost is high.

I admit that end-game considerations are purely theoretical for me. I am planning to build the maze just for looks, and figure out how to make up the space via other means. That's part of the challenge Not going to level it past L6 though.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Nothing should appeal to everyone, or it's probably game-breaking.

Mostly agree. Well, no one is complaining about Golden Abyss... Scratch that, players in chapter 3 probably do

I'm at my lowest Factory count since I hit T3, at 11 (and about to be 12, when I add sentient platinum shortly) So it's always been useful to me, and was the first thing I put KP into.

Even with higher manufactory count lower levels of MH just don't give enough benefit IMO. But just as everything else, it's a question of alternatives. Are there better uses of that space (it doesn't have to be related to goods manufacturing)? If you're not tight on anything, and just KP-restricted and have this space - then why not? But let's say you're tight on supplies or mana or something else - then you're better off building some supplies or mana generation rather than low-level MH.

As I mentioned, GA or PT or EE are different in this regard as no matter that your other restrictions are, you're not increasing your footprint (these AWs directly replace one or more buildings). So you have the same or more space for other things that might be more important.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Not sure what you mean here, there are too many variables missing - number of armories and levels, total squad size etc.

Right, so all I can give you is my scenario. The point is that you can always easily calculate which is better by mousing over the Wonder on the upgrade tab and seeing which gives you more training per KP.
For your future theorycrafting you can use
www.tinyurl.com/trainingcalc

mountainhalls supplies sources. [Sorry still can't QUOTE properly]

A few thingwith those calcs
1. The only sheet I could find was that one which is just a comparison between GA vs mthall, so zero pop is attributed to the mthall. Including the pop should make it looks even better.
2. Yes, players get supplies from many sources, but I think almost every player does get some of their supplies from unbuffed regular non magic workshops. Obviously if you used the mountain halls instead of building an additional factory in order to save on pop and supplies you would not tear down your endless excavation.
There's a few ways to be an exception, but I don't think quest cycles or all magic all PoP 24/7 beverage makers are here looking for any advice.

Tome good?

Ignore the KP that you get from the tomes.
The reason the wonder is a keeper for a vast majority of players is the supplies.
A workshop needs pop andand culture both of which take up space. So generally as long as you scout three times per week the TOS is better at making supplies.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Nothing should appeal to everyone, or it's probably game-breaking.

I'm at my lowest Factory count since I hit T3, at 11 (and about to be 12, when I add sentient platinum shortly) So it's always been useful to me, and was the first thing I put KP into.

Mountain Halls does not increase Sentient boosted goods production, only normal boosted goods.

 

[Ashrem]

But I'll still be producing steel when I don't need the platinum. Or does that lose the boost as well?

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

But I'll still be producing steel when I don't need the platinum. Or does that lose the boost as well?

If you are boosted in Platinum, you can't also be boosted in steel. The six normal non-boosted goods are not modified by Mountain Halls at all. Only your three normal boosted goods get the increase.

 

[Nyrva]

Right, so all I can give you is my scenario. The point is that you can always easily calculate which is better by mousing over the Wonder on the upgrade tab and seeing which gives you more training per KP.
For your future theorycrafting you can use
www.tinyurl.com/trainingcalc

A few thingwith those calcs
1. The only sheet I could find was that one which is just a comparison between GA vs mthall, so zero pop is attributed to the mthall. Including the pop should make it looks even better.
2. Yes, players get supplies from many sources, but I think almost every player does get some of their supplies from unbuffed regular non magic workshops. Obviously if you used the mountain halls instead of building an additional factory in order to save on pop and supplies you would not tear down your endless excavation.
There's a few ways to be an exception, but I don't think quest cycles or all magic all PoP 24/7 beverage makers are here looking for any advice.

Ignore the KP that you get from the tomes.
The reason the wonder is a keeper for a vast majority of players is the supplies.
A workshop needs pop andand culture both of which take up space. So generally as long as you scout three times per week the TOS is better at making supplies.

First, thank you for the reply. But respectfully, I still find I have some unanswered questions.

I am really not trying to be rude, But I certainly asked more than just "Tome good?" I asked about the Mountain Halls, reducing workshops, and some other things.

(Hey at least you responded, the other guys just kept talking with their own threads like I wasn't even there. Meanies! lol! ).

I just don't want my other questions to go unanswered if I can help it. I'm still on the learning curve with this game to sat the least. And Elvenargems is down right now, for example (or last time I tried it when this new contest started.)

I also posted my profile link to ElvenarStats for my city to show what kind of progress I have.

I realize sometimes I can post long posts and rant.

So to be fair, let me see if I can cut out some of the "fluff" from my last post and try to rewrite it a bit more straight-to-the point:


1. Why is the Tome good to keep if it is? "Reward per scout" on the tooltip of the building does not explain itself, at least not well enough for me. It's too vague a feature. First: Do you have more than one scout, and is it a reward based on the number of scouts? Or is "scout" being used as a verb? As in "Every time you scout you get this reward." You can't scout more than one province at a time, so how is there "reward per scout"?

I'm right now seeing the Tome of Secrets as merely a building that takes up 4x4 and all it does is produce 1KP a day for that space (i.e. a "space hog"). My Carting Library provides a little culture and does the same thing for the 1x2 space it takes up. Those seem to come up as prizes quite often.

Also at the moment I am maxed out on territories- until I reach level 8 and can get orcs, I can't even barter in new provinces I scout without buying diamonds. So this is where I currently stand.

I was scouting almost daily until now- but until Chapter VIII I can't even barter the provinces I scout.

With this in mind, I have contest set buildings that provide me a large number of supplies on a daily basis and also provide culture in addition to what my workshops produce, and I have a level 3 Mountain Hall. At this point is the Tome just the "space hog" I think it is? Or is there something else?


2. With my Mountain Hall, already to level 3, I have 5 level 19 workshops and 3 level 17s (not counting my 1 magic workshop), can I afford to scale back a bit on the number of workshops I have? At least nix one or two of the level 17s?

I discovered I had to sacrifice 1 of my level 15 silk buildings to upgrade 1 of the remaining 2 to level 16. So I've been questioning if going into chapter VIII if houses, and now workshops with the Mountain Halls, will work the same way.

3. Do the benefits of the AWs stack?

Along with any relative production and/or culture buidlings? Whether military, or production, neighborly help, or any other kind? I'm looking at Prosperity Towers, Blooming Trader Guild, and for the future Maze of the Dark Matter looks like something that will be useful whenever I reach that chapter. I'm not sure about the benefits of the Dwarven Bulwark, but I'm close to unlocking that.

I'm kind of SOL on the Phoenix buildings this time around because I disenchanted mine, not thinking they were much use. CS won't restore - so unless they are prizes again this time around I'm not going to get those again until next year. So this question is about whatever else I can use.

4. Dwarven Bulwark -- worth having?

Hoping this is a bit more condensed and easier to tackle. But I'm really looking for some answers to these questions. I hope this is a bit easier to pick out that my previous post. Thanks.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

2. With my Mountain Hall, already to level 3, I have 5 level 19 workshops and 3 level 17s (not counting my 1 magic workshop), can I afford to scale back a bit on the number of workshops I have? At least nix one or two of the level 17s?

I think you are mixing two wonders up. Mountain Halls has nothing to do with supplies. It increases the amount of normal boosted goods you make and if gives you population. Endless Excavation is the one that provides supplies and can replace workshops at higher levels.

 

[SoggyShorts]

But I certainly asked more than just "Tome good?" I as

Yeah but I'm on a phone so it's a little hard to answer all your questions. Easier to tackle one at a time

Reward per scout is indeed being used as a verb.
So math it out-
1.how many 3h and 9h production s do you do in a workshop?l, and what does that add up to per day in supplies?
2. How many squares does your workshop take? Including pop and culture?
3. Using the Information from 1&2 what is your supplies per square per day production in a workshop?
4. How often can you scout? Divide that by 18(4x4+road) to get supplies per day for the ToS

Or skip all those steps and know that I and others have already checked and as long as you scout 3x per week the TOS gives you more supplies that workshops do.

Most chapters require that you scout and clear a minimum of 30 provinces in order to advance, and most players only need a couple of months per chapter.
Ergo most players scout often enough that the TOS is a must have wonder.

 

[samidodamage]

(Hey at least you responded, the other guys just kept talking with their own threads like I wasn't even there. Meanies! lol! ).

I feel bad for you! I don't have the answers to many of your questions, but I'll tell you what I know:
Let's start with AW's that effect your workshops: General consensus is 9-10 WS needed. That number doesn't change much with upgrades as the demands on supplies scale up as well. If you scout at least 3 times/week, the ToS can replace one of them, taking that number down to 8-9. Endless Excavation can replace another, taking that down to 7-8. Prosperity Towers can replace another taking that down to 6-7. This varies depending on how often you set/collect supplies, whether and how often you use PoP spells, and your use of Supply instants. As you sell off those WS, you'll get back the pop and culture they're using as well as the space and building the AW's won't take any pop or culture. Also, the AW will remain the same size. WS will continue to grow and change orientation and create other challenges, so IMO the fewer of those the better.

Mountain halls provides culture and an increase to your boosted goods production in T1, T2, & T3 factories. General consensus is 40 squares of factory space per tier. So, as you Once you have 500 relics and a 700% boost, this is the only way to move that number over 700. If you utilize set bldgs from events for goods production and have fewer factories, it might not be as attractive an AW for your playstyle. If you negotiate or cater much, you're probably going to want all the goods boosts you can get.

Benefits stack? If you mean do they get added to other similar benefits, yes. Ex: Martial Monastery improves the health of all troops(so fewer losses). Expiring UUU crafted bldgs improves the health of all troops for 5 days (just long enough for a tourney). During those 5 days your troops get both the MM boost and the UUU boost.

Bulwark: Increases training size and can replace an armory. Bonus is you get a few barracks light melee units. As an elf, I throw those in the early tourney rounds where light melee is the key unit. Saves on dogs for the stronger enemies. If you fight I think you need it. Even if you keep all your armories. Increasing your training size and working out having your training queue run 24/7 without running out while you're afk are two key ways to keep up with troop losses.

Quick tip on producing orcs: As soon as you activate advanced scouts for Ch8, the orc nests available to craft will produce orcs. Early chapters they produce either supplies or T3 goods, so if you have one of those from fairies and 8 RR spells, you can upgrade it after activating that tech and it will begin making orcs. Means you have to get lucky to get one in crafting, but you might be able to start making them before you get to and upgrade the armories. The nests don't need supplies to make them either. But the armories do! Loads of supplies needed to make orcs.

So, no answers, but at least some information to help get you closer to the answer that works for you.
To add to your information overload (lol!): Here's a link to an older post that gives specific info on all the AW's that were around at that time; I found it useful as a quick reference:
https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/best-ancient-wonders.13605/#post-76358

@SoggyShorts feel free to weigh in on this when you get to a browser and posting is easier for you.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

Space and playstyle dicatate what one can and should build. I had my CL up to lvl 8 before the castrated it, and sold it a few months later when it became obvious they would not undo the castration. As I built it primarily for the goods it was obvious it had to go.
The Throne just sucks, unless one wants to be higher up in the ranking. Since that offers no rewards there is no good reason having it.
The Lighthouse of GN is kinda hopeless since it only affects mana-producing culture buildings which give less culture. Not worth it.
Enars Embassy is a disgrace. WAY too much space for almost nothing. By the time you can build it scouttimes are up so far the amount of mana it gives is not so great anymore. And 1 broken shard per week? Don't make me laugh. It is easier to get more with the tourneys.
The Elvenar TradeCenter is ok. The seeds are not too great, but the boost in the MM-spell is, and that makes it worth it to me. I don't use it a lot on my regular factories, but the sentient goods I have boosted for a good part of the time while going through a chapter.

I'm right now working on getting my GA to 30, but after that I will turn my attention on all the battle-related AWs again. The ones that provide units really do help. And the ones that speed up the training, same thing.
There would be only 1 reason NOT to build any of the battlerelated wonders, but in that case, one should build none of them. That way you have more space to dedicate to factories and workshops and residences since you will want to cater everything. But whether that is going to be more efficient is something I doubt. Besides, I LIKE having a lot of units.

I disagree with @SoggyShorts about the maze and the BTG though. The maze produces a reasonable amount of mana, but it is the reduction of decay that I like. With my average storage of mana around 1.5 mil it means that my decay with the maze at lvl 8 is 108000 instead of 150000. That's quite a difference and that does not take into account the amount it generates.
And yes, the PP spells are great. But you know what? Having them AND the BTG is even better. Also, I use the wholesaler to get some additional goods for coins each day. I could buy more KPs, but don't really need them right now. The goods I get from the trader save me boosted goods I would have to trade for them, meaning I have some more boosted goods to buy KPs with as well. And I like having a giant bee in my city.

 

[Black watch]

I love the last part of this message.

This is an awesome discussion, and I wish there was a way for all of us to list out each AW, and our relative preferences. But I don't think that these forums really lend themselves to that discussion. Maybe a thread for each "must-have" wonder (if only to provide Soggy's math), and a thread for the crap-ola wonders, and then an individual thread for the middle ones. But I love this sort of discussion, in part because this same sort of discussion a year+ ago resulted in @SoggyShorts opening my eyes to the value of EE and ToS as a source of goods.

The reality is, I think, that most wonders are justifiable towards end-game. Your city just gets so big that even spending the space on the Maze. Further, so much depends on playstyle. Military vs cater. Slow and steady vs power-gamer. Always scouting vs bare minimum. Lots of factories vs lots of sets.

Lastly, levelling these wonders is all relative. If the choice is 1,000 KP to bring your MM from level 19 to 20, or bringing Victory Springs from level 1 to level 6.

Anyways, just a thank-you to all involved in this thread for providing what I consider some of the highest value discussion seen on these forums.

Also, wouldn't it be great if there was like a temporary storage option for when you're rearranging your city?

The storage will never happen, but I love the idea.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

Ignore the KP that you get from the tomes.
The reason the wonder is a keeper for a vast majority of players is the supplies.
A workshop needs pop andand culture both of which take up space. So generally as long as you scout three times per week the TOS is better at making supplies.

Problem is of course that at some point one cannot scout 3x per week anymore.
My scouting-time is almost 80 hours, and thus more than 3 days/scout. So scouting 3x/week is impossible, even if RL would not make it impossible to sit and wait and hit the scout button the second it becomes available. In my case, there will often be hours in between the scout finishing and me starting again because my daily schedule does not allow me to sit and wait for the scout to finish.

Right now my ToS is at lvl 11 and I now keep it mostly because of the 3 KP's/day, but am not exactly in a hurry to upgrade it. In fact, even at lvl 1, it requires 140 KPs to upgrade it. Or 560KP's plus filling the ring again to get it to lvl 6 where it starts providing 2 KP's per day.

But 560 KP's equals almost 24 full day's worth of regular KPs. Or, if just looking at the ToS alone, almost 19 months worth for it to pay back the investment to upgrade it to lvl 6.

And from there to lvl 11 much worse of course. So if one plans on upgrading it, it's best to find other players to dump KPs into it

(edited for typo's)

 

[Black watch]

Thanks for all the information Folks. It's been grand to read this thread and it even made me laugh several times. Good times.......