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    Your Elvenar Team

New players and elite buildings

Qybyrn

Member
I recently quit another game after playing for a few months because I got to the point where I realized that every other player in the ladder had one character I didn't have. That character was WAY overpowered, and I had zero chance to advance without her. That event that rewarded that character was not scheduled for at least six months. News flash, it is NOT fun to lose every battle for six months and continue to pay money to do so. So I deleted the game and moved on. I was spending about $50/month on purchases playing that game, they lost my revenue. A few other players in my guild quit before me for the same reason (I wish I had understand their complaints sooner than I did, it would have saved me some money and frustration), and I'm guessing one of them was spending twice as much as I was.

My point is that game was severely penalizing new players. Is that really a good business model? What does that have to do with Elvenar?? Easy, the Fire Phoenix.

I started playing in early 2018, and had a very young city for the Phoenix event. I was able to get a stage 7 Fire Phoenix. It wasn't until later in the year until I realize just how dominant of a building it is. Luckily I was able to get 3 more artifacts in this years event. I can definitely say I would have quit this game awhile ago if I knew other people had that advantage and I did not. I've read a statement released by the devs that universal artifacts would "not be fair to older players" which is total non sense. Elvenar is not really a PvP competitive game, the idea of not making artifacts available for new players to obtain this critical building (or even Brown Bear) is absolutely insane. I'm not saying it should be "easy", but it shouldn't be a once-a-year 2-for-1 trade-in either. You are driving new players away. We had a fellowship member lose interest in the game once they realized they could not do the spire without Fire Phoenix. Very very poor game design. Do you really expect new players to stick around watching their fellowship members be able to get to the top of the spire while they expend all their resources to maybe make it halfway???

This isn't an issue that is personally affecting me, but I feel the need to say something based on this exact experience with other games and on behalf of new/young elvenar players and players that join in the future. You are doing them dirty.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
@Henroo

Fair enough. But it is not critical or game breaking. New players may want it, but they do not need it. And not all players want it.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
@Henroo

Fair enough. But it is not critical or game breaking. New players may want it, but they do not need it. And not all players want it.
I think it is game breaking. I missed the original Phoenix event cause I was not playing yet. Was still fairly new to the game when the Coldfire Phoenix event happened earlier this year. In my oldest world, I transformed all my Coldfire artifacts into Phoenix artifacts and ended up with a stage 6 Fire Phoenix. In my youngest world at the time, I foolishly used the Coldfire Phoenix. So the only Phoenix artifacts there I got there were the ones that were given out for quests. My Fire Phoenix in that world is stage 3.

By this point I have evened out in both worlds. I am human in both worlds. I am in the same chapter in both worlds. But 1 world has a stage 6 Fire Phoenix and the other has a stage 3 Fire Phoenix. I can tell a big difference in tournament performance between the 2 worlds. And that is only with 3 stages difference of Fire Phoenix. I am seriously jealous of you older players with stage 10 Fire Phoenixes!
 

Qybyrn

Member
I never used the term "game breaking", but IMO it is close to it. Let me put it this way, if i accidentally deleted it and they refused to restore it through a customer service ticket, I 100% would quit the game.

this is a PVE game. I personally like the fact I don't have to care about what other are doing (outside my fellowship). So their reasoning that I am to be jealous because new players can get a stage 10 fire phoenix is absurd. Actually, it is quite the opposite, I want to see younger players get it and grow stronger.

@Henroo - I had mine at stage 7 until this year, luckily i was able to get stage 10 via the spring event. Having the %5 PP every 2 days is like icing on top of the cake.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I am in chapter 3. I dont have a fire phoenix. This is my 4th spire. I did not make it to the top my first two tries, but I made it last week and got over 2k in the scrolls tournament. If I can do it during a scrolls tourny...
Frantically redesigning my city between spires has been a blast. Every week I have been yanking and shuffling and upgrading. It has been fun.
 

Qybyrn

Member
@lyapo1 - i think you may change your tune as you progress through chapters, when you start facing more difficult enemies (3* enemies) and more difficult combinations.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Is the fire phoenix required for the spire? No. Is it required for tournaments? Again, no. You can do both without it. But can you do them as well? Of course not. The real question isn't the effect of the fire phoenix it's "do the devs assume you have one when they set the levels of fighting required to be successful?" In other words, is the fighting harder than it would be if the fire phoenix had not been introduced? If so, then those who have no way to get it and/or no way to evolve it to an effective level, are being penalized. If not, then the cost of doing the spire (fighting) and the tournaments (also fighting) is lower for those who have it in the same way that having some AW's because you've been here long enough to activate those AW's makes fighting easier.

So, in the end it is really a question of if the devs assume you have a fire phoenix and are setting the difficulty of play with that assumption. I think not, but I do not know. That you can finish the spire and do reasonably well in tournaments without the fire phoenix leads me to think that the fire phoenix is just another way to enhance your troops rather than something the devs add into the calculations on how difficult to make things.

Just my musings and nothing more.

AJ
 

Evening Star Selene

Active Member
Just to add my 2 cent's worth, I play the spire every week, and always get into the laboratory, and frequently to the top of the spire. I also am very active in our tournaments, we generally get 8 chests, and I am usually in third place on the scoreboard. I do not have a fire phoenix. I did have one at level 4, but I deleted it as a chapter 2 player, not realizing the benefit it would have been to me. All this to say that it won't eliminate the chance of successful spire/tournament play. Is it it harder without it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Deleted User - 4750465

Guest
Is the fire phoenix required for the spire? No. Is it required for tournaments? Again, no. You can do both without it. But can you do them as well? Of course not. The real question isn't the effect of the fire phoenix it's "do the devs assume you have one when they set the levels of fighting required to be successful?" In other words, is the fighting harder than it would be if the fire phoenix had not been introduced? If so, then those who have no way to get it and/or no way to evolve it to an effective level, are being penalized. If not, then the cost of doing the spire (fighting) and the tournaments (also fighting) is lower for those who have it in the same way that having some AW's because you've been here long enough to activate those AW's makes fighting easier.

So, in the end it is really a question of if the devs assume you have a fire phoenix and are setting the difficulty of play with that assumption. I think not, but I do not know. That you can finish the spire and do reasonably well in tournaments without the fire phoenix leads me to think that the fire phoenix is just another way to enhance your troops rather than something the devs add into the calculations on how difficult to make things.

Just my musings and nothing more.

AJ
Game balancing absolutely has to assume you have one otherwise they may create an scenario where a player can't lose.
 

Iamaita

Well-Known Member
I’m a new player currently in chapter 5. I don’t think that I’m just incredibly bad at the game. But I do play on mobile, which means I rely on numbers and relative strength to win auto fights with no opportunity to decrease my losses through skill. My losses in tournaments and spire are high. I can be patient and wait for squad size upgrades to help in regular provinces. I can even try to save my squad size upgrades for after the spire has opened, but this is not always feasible based on my location in the research tree. I burn through troops. I feel like I am constantly waiting on troop production to finish so that I have five full squads to fight an encounter. I am unable to design my city the way I would like to because I have because I have so much space dedicated to armories. I spend a ridiculous amount of time brewing beverages to have enough supplies to keep building troops. I craft every military advantage building I can, but don’t see these as often as I would like. I’m doing my best to get wonders that will help, but I’m waiting for runes. I started playing in June, and I don’t have a brown bear or a fire Phoenix. These items would change the game for me in really positive ways. I understand that this game is about balance, and that a bit of a struggle to keep up is part of the challenge. But I would love to cater less and fight more. Especially since tournament catering costs are so high. I do mostly cater the spire right now, saving my troops for fights where the mixup of enemies is more favorable for autofight. I would love to have less than six armories. I would love to spend fewer time instants trying speed troop production to finish tournaments. I would love to actually build up an army instead of only barely being able to keep up with the current rate of attrition. So... yes I think an opportunity for new players to get these items would be great. Especially for mobile players. I really just feel like the game would be more balanced if my ability to produce troops could keep up with my inability to keep from losing them. To me this would mean either lower difficulty in fights or at least a better opportunity to get items that help with troop production and decrease losses. Do I need these items to play successfully? Of course not. But it would make it more fun. Will I stop playing over it? Probably not. Am I going to whine about it a whole lot? Again probably not. But would I strongly support any notion that new players get access to the brown bear or fire Phoenix? 100%. Would I pay real money to get one? Absolutely.

If any other players think that I must just be doing something wrong to be struggling so much with troop production, I heartily welcome any constructive criticism or helpful advice you are willing to offer. But that should probably go in a separate thread. Or you are welcome to come visit me on Elcyasndir and send me a message in game.
 
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Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I’m a new player currently in chapter 5. I don’t think that I’m just incredibly bad at the game. But I do play on mobile, which means I rely on numbers and relative strength to win auto fights with no opportunity to decrease my losses through skill. My losses in tournaments and spire are high. I can be patient and wait for squad size upgrades to help in regular provinces. I can even try to save my squad size upgrades for after the spire has opened, but this is not always feasible based on my location in the research tree. I burn through troops. I feel like I am constantly waiting on troop production to finish so that I have five full squads to fight an encounter. I am unable to design my city the way I would like to because I have because I have so much space dedicated to armories. I spend a ridiculous amount of time brewing beverages to have enough supplies to keep building troops. I craft every military advantage building I can, but don’t see these as often as I would like. I’m doing my best to get wonders that will help, but I’m waiting for runes. I started playing in June, and I don’t have a brown bear or a fire Phoenix. These items would change the game for me in really positive ways. I understand that this game is about balance, and that a bit of a struggle to keep up is part of the challenge. But I would love to cater less and fight more. Especially since tournament catering costs are so high. I do mostly cater the spire right now, saving my troops for fights where the mixup of enemies is more favorable for autofight. I would love to have less than six armories. I would love to spend fewer times instants trying speed troop production to finish tournaments. I would love to actually build up an army instead of only being able to keep up with the current rate of attrition. So... yes I think an opportunity for new players to get these items would be great. Especially for mobile players. I really just feel like the game would be more balanced if my ability to produce troops could keep up with my inability to keep from losing them. To me this would mean either lower difficulty in fights or at least a better opportunity to get items that help with troop production and decrease losses. Do I need these items to play successfully. Of course not. But it would make it more fun. Will I stop playing over it? Probably not. Am I going to whine about it a whole lot? Again probably not. But would I strongly support any notion that new players get access to the brown bear or fire Phoenix? 100%. Would I pay real money to get one? Absolutely.

If any other players think that I must just be doing something wrong to be struggling so much with troop production, I heartily welcome any constructive criticism or helpful advice you are willing to offer. But that should probably go in a separate thread. Or you are welcome to come visit me on Elcyasndir and send me a message in game.
I can identify with your post, and I wish you luck. My only advice is to concentrate on getting Needles and Martial Monastery. I find those AWs have helped me so much. If your fellowship has an kp thread for AWs, you can get rune shards more quickly by participating. Also, make sure you do the tourney provinces that give rune shards. In my humble opinion, those two AWs are critical and they don't even have to be high level. I think my Martial Monastery is only at level 6 now, but it really helps with tourneys. And I also craft every Unleashed Upgrade that I see in the MA.

By the way, the brown bear just showed up to craft today. I snatched it. Good luck to you on those and all the rest.
 

Iamaita

Well-Known Member
I can identify with your post, and I wish you luck. My only advice is to concentrate on getting Needles and Martial Monastery. I find those AWs have helped me so much. If your fellowship has an kp thread for AWs, you can get rune shards more quickly by participating. Also, make sure you do the tourney provinces that give rune shards. In my humble opinion, those two AWs are critical and they don't even have to be high level. I think my Martial Monastery is only at level 6 now, but it really helps with tourneys. And I also craft every Unleashed Upgrade that I see in the MA.

By the way, the brown bear just showed up to craft today. I snatched it. Good luck to you on those and all the rest.
Thanks, Darielle. Needles is at level 5, awaiting runes for further upgrades. I am also collecting runes as fast as I can for the martial monastery. I definitely hit any tournament province that offers AW runes. I craft unleashed upgrades every time I see them as well as any other building that gives free troops. Congrats on your brown bear! I got a polar bear from crafting, but no brown bear option yet. Fingers crossed. :)
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
@lyapo1 - i think you may change your tune as you progress through chapters, when you start facing more difficult enemies (3* enemies) and more difficult combinations.
I wont. I play on mobile. I have to use autobattle which seriously increases my troop losses. So I am building a manufacturing monstrosity!


I have absolutely no objection with the Fire Phoenix being re-offered, I also have absolutely no interest in getting one. Players who fight played sucessfully for years before the phoenix came out, it is really nice to have for fighters but not essential.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
Game balancing absolutely has to assume you have one otherwise they may create an scenario where a player can't lose.
Most players dont have one. And Inno has been pretty adamant about keeping it that way. Is it overpowered? I am not going there because going there leads to nerfing which is the very devil! Those who have it, love it up. This is not pvp.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Game balancing absolutely has to assume you have one otherwise they may create an scenario where a player can't lose.

I don't remember if the fire phoenix came before after the spire. If before then the Spire may have been set to it's levels with that in mind, but if after, I don't think they have made the Spire harder, have they? In any case, if few have the Fire Phoenix then they devs could have left the difficulty levels alone and just accepted a few would have that advantage. But, if most have a well evolved Fire Phoenix game balancing might need to be done lest things just become too easy, as you say. I do wonder what percentage of player have the Fire Phoenix and what do not. I'm asking my fs but of course were pretty highly ranked so our numbers would probably be skewed toward the norm for long term players -- which means they had the opportunity to get the Fire Phoenix and evolve it. Still, I'm asking just to get an idea. Maybe other's could too.

AJ
 

michmarc

Well-Known Member
Except for the first gate, I use goods exclusively in the Spire, so I can't comment there. But I know that getting the L10 Fire Phoenix in the last event made my 'routine effort' in the tournament jump from around 2000pts to around 3000pts. That extra 1k points translates into a large amount of extra KP (and other stuff but KP is the big win) which helps you upgrade all of your other wonders.

I would say that the bird is game breaking and the fact that the most recent event gave players a second chance to win it (the first time an event grand prize has ever been offered a second time, to my knoweldge) is a sign that they recognize that it is broken and the only way to "fix" it is to give everyone a chance to have it. And that means that those who don't have one are playing at a penalty.

It is true that this is a PVE game and not a PVP game (where being at a permanent disadvantage would block you). However, tournaments are one of the richest sources of 'extras' in the game and having a permanent disadvantage there means that you're path through the game is permanently more difficult than other peoples.

Other event builds (like the Jester's Tavern or Stonehenge) are great buildings, but none of them are essential and none of them give you as much of a permanent benefit as the Firebird does.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
I use 1-2 expiring military bldgs per week, usually and I get my 1600 pts.
As for Spire, I cater only and complete every week.....
ohh yeah, just CH3 , and no Phoenixes or Bears ......

What is a detriment to new players is the fact that most bldgs are just so nerf'd @ low levels...
This applies to both evolving bldgs and reg ones.....

Example..... a CH 15 person gets coins/tools/goods/troops and a CH2 person gets coins/tools.
I don't care if the CH2 gets 10 measly goods and 1 troop, all players should get some of everything
a bldg gives away, that way upper players still get the adv, but low players still get something.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I don't care if the CH2 gets 10 measly goods and 1 troop, all players should get some of everything
a bldg gives away
Another chapter three here. I have zero use for decaying goods and I have very little use for t3s. What am I going to do with some of everything? I actually appreciate that the building productions are shifted to better suit chapters.
 
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