New Spire of Eternity rewards - discussion thread

[T6583]

FYI for all those wondering the Library set returned to the Spire this week in Beta and as far as I can tell it remains unchanged. So chances are that in 6 weeks it will return for all those wanting it. I though personally am hoping that it changes as Kekune suggested as that would be awesome.

 

[Fayeanne]

About 1/6 of my city is in moonstone sets and it works well for me because it gives me much more than my scrolls mfrs.

Sad thing is, this is true for anyone, regardless of whether they are boosted in Scrolls or not. So effectively, Scrolls-boosted players have no T2 boost.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

And bravo to all the scroll boosted players who have hung in depsite their boost becoming unnecessary and unwanted

Except there's no proof that there's an imbalance caused by the moonstone set. I'm scroll boosted in about 4 or 5 of my cities and in 3 of those my scrolls get snatched up super quick. Whilst I've seen territorial imbalances for various goods I believe this is purposeful as Inno uses these bottle necks to force players to be resourceful. And even if they do result in more scrolls being supplied it's quite likely that this 'excess' is balanced out by having more scrolls required during tourneys and negotiating encounters etc.

The same thing can be seen in the apparent imbalanced goods production between human and elven cities. In my human city a L15 steel manufactory produces approx 1125 steel (70 goods per tile) whilst my L15 steel manu with the same % of relic boost produces about 568 (63 goods per tile). They both cost the same coins per tile/batch to produce yet the human city vastly out produces my elven manufactory and offers twice the rank points per manu as well. But it only appears imbalanced on the surface. Once you start looking at the costs of upgrades, size & number of supporting buildings like res & culture you soon see that whilst its true that human city steel manufactories produce way more steel any advantage/disadvantage disappears once you step back and see the bigger picture.

 

[Jorollyn]

I'm in dwarves right now, put all but one of my scrolls into storage. With 2 complete libraries and a fully evolved owl I have all of the scrolls I need and then some.

 

[AtaguS]

Except there's no proof that there's an imbalance caused by the moonstone set. I'm scroll boosted in about 4 or 5 of my cities and in 3 of those my scrolls get snatched up super quick. Whilst I've seen territorial imbalances for various goods I believe this is purposeful as Inno uses these bottle necks to force players to be resourceful. And even if they do result in more scrolls being supplied it's quite likely that this 'excess' is balanced out by having more scrolls required during tourneys and negotiating encounters etc.

The same thing can be seen in the apparent imbalanced goods production between human and elven cities. In my human city a L15 steel manufactory produces approx 1125 steel (70 goods per tile) whilst my L15 steel manu with the same % of relic boost produces about 568 (63 goods per tile). They both cost the same coins per tile/batch to produce yet the human city vastly out produces my elven manufactory and offers twice the rank points per manu as well. But it only appears imbalanced on the surface. Once you start looking at the costs of upgrades, size & number of supporting buildings like res & culture you soon see that whilst its true that human city steel manufactories produce way more steel any advantage/disadvantage disappears once you step back and see the bigger picture.

@Eudaemonia I'm pleased that has been your experience but it hasn't been mine at all. In the time since the moonstone library has been available in the spire I've haven't seen a trade asking for scrolls in my NH for more than 2500 - usually they are closer to 1000 or less (these are from newer cities who haven't either built their own scrolls yet or gone far in the spire). Daily I go to the trader and look....not a single trade demanding scrolls (other than the rare and few, scattered little ones mentioned above). And I have 32 daily active neighbors so location isn't the issue. Non-scroll boosted members of my fellowship have millions of scrolls which they also bemoan having no home for in the trader and so they just...amass. When I go to the trader trying to get some silk or crystal I am essentially putting a hat out and asking for a hand-out. The two regulars who actually take my scroll trades are -I know because I've chatted with them about it - helping me out because they have more silk and crystal than they know what to do with and they are generous players. I feel fortunate to have them in my neighborhood.

Asking for more scolls in tournies and the tech tree has not come close to balancing the imbalance where I reside. These 400k or more asks are easily eaten up once or twice in a tech tree, or once a week in the tourney by anyone with a decent moonstone set. I have seen zero uptick in scroll demand (which is at zero) in my trader since the release of chapter 16 or 17 or the new tourney format. I'm looking for something substantial to come along and correct the obvious imbalance of goods created by the moonstone. And I would argue that "the same" cannot be said for the imbalanced production between human and elven cities. This is an apparent imbalance which is easily overcome by the circumstances you outlined. The over abundance of scrolls in not apparent, it is a real and day-to-day reality.

Sure, I lump along fine despite there being no value to my scrolls anymore, but without a ton of enthusiasm for this aspect of things. It isn't the game I loved before the moonstone where FSs advertised for scroll boosted players, my trades were actualy needed within the fs or the neighborhood trader and there was some purpose to me unlocking and upgrading my scroll factories.

 

[Kekune]

Except there's no proof that there's an imbalance caused by the moonstone set

There may not be proof in the formal sense of the word, but there is certainly a lot of anecdotal evidence, across multiple worlds, that there is a large surplus of scrolls which coincided with the rise of the moonstone set.

If your scroll-boosted cities are generally on the smaller side and have good trade networks, then larger cities may be taking your trades fairly comfortably whether they need them or not. Many larger cities report difficulty in trading scrolls at same-tier, equal rates (or at all, depending on their trade networks).

 

[DeletedUser27062]

@Eudaemonia I'm pleased that has been your experience but it hasn't been mine at all. In the time since the moonstone library has been available in the spire I've haven't seen a trade asking for scrolls in my NH for more than 2500 - usually they are closer to 1000 or less (these are from newer cities who haven't either built their own scrolls yet or gone far in the spire). Daily I go to the trader and look....not a single trade demanding scrolls (other than the rare and few, scattered little ones mentioned above). And I have 32 daily active neighbors so location isn't the issue. Non-scroll boosted members of my fellowship have millions of scrolls which they also bemoan having no home for in the trader and so they just...amass. When I go to the trader trying to get some silk or crystal I am essentially putting a hat out and asking for a hand-out. The two regulars who actually take my scroll trades are -I know because I've chatted with them about it - helping me out because they have more silk and crystal than they know what to do with and they are generous players. I feel fortunate to have them in my neighborhood.

Asking for more scolls in tournies and the tech tree has not come close to balancing the imbalance where I reside. These 400k or more asks are easily eaten up once or twice in a tech tree, or once a week in the tourney by anyone with a decent moonstone set. I have seen zero uptick in scroll demand (which is at zero) in my trader since the release of chapter 16 or 17 or the new tourney format. I'm looking for something substantial to come along and correct the obvious imbalance of goods created by the moonstone. And I would argue that "the same" cannot be said for the imbalanced production between human and elven cities. This is an apparent imbalance which is easily overcome by the circumstances you outlined. The over abundance of scrolls in not apparent, it is a real and day-to-day reality.

Sure, I lump along fine despite there being no value to my scrolls anymore, but without a ton of enthusiasm for this aspect of things. It isn't the game I loved before the moonstone where FSs advertised for scroll boosted players, my trades were actualy needed within the fs or the neighborhood trader and there was some purpose to me unlocking and upgrading my scroll factories.

I have no doubt you experience an imbalance and know how difficult it can be to manage. I'm not saying there isn't a problem. Unless you're recording the catering/negotiating costs over several months you can't say whether more scrolls are asked for than other t2 goods. Also, as I pointed out, there are numerous ways Inno could potentially be balancing things. Some of my cities have an abundance of crystals, others are crying out for silk yet we don't have any building to blame for those imbalances. I'm simply suggesting that just because the ground is wet doesn't mean it rained.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

There may not be proof in the formal sense of the word, but there is certainly a lot of anecdotal evidence, across multiple worlds, that there is a large surplus of scrolls which coincided with the rise of the moonstone set.

If your scroll-boosted cities are generally on the smaller side and have good trade networks, then larger cities may be taking your trades fairly comfortably whether they need them or not. Many larger cities report difficulty in trading scrolls at same-tier, equal rates (or at all, depending on their trade networks).

The problem with anecdotal evidence is that people see what they believe to be true. If folks believe there's an imbalance then they'll see proof of that and will disregard information that doesn't confirm their beliefs. It's seems to me that all neighbourhoods should be experiencing a scrolls excess all the time not just some of them given that all people over ch 3 have access to the spire.

It would be incredibly interesting to see that actual data but Inno isn't sharing

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

The problem with anecdotal evidence is that people see what they believe to be true. If folks believe there's an imbalance then they'll see proof of that and will disregard information that doesn't confirm their beliefs. It's seems to me that all neighbourhoods should be experiencing a scrolls excess all the time not just some of them given that all people over ch 3 have access to the spire.

It would be incredibly interesting to see that actual data but Inno isn't sharing

The real problem is that normal goods are traded regionally and not globally, like sentient goods are. So there will be pockets all over a server with different imbalances. There may also be imbalances within a fellowship, if the AW is not careful to recruit an even mix of players with different boosts. And as part of the regional problem, there is the issue of who quits and what their boosts were. Say you have discovered 150 neighbors and you look at all their boosts and there are 50 boosted in each of the three tier 2 goods. But when you look closer with elvenstats, you see that half of those boosted in silk and crystal no longer play, while almost none of the scroll-boosted players have quit. Then boom, instant imbalance, regardless of how many Moonstone sets the remaining active neighbors have. Or it could be the opposite and most of the scrolls-boosted players quit because no one wanted their scrolls and now there is a scrolls shortage in that part of the server.

 

[Kekune]

It's seems to me that all neighbourhoods should be experiencing a scrolls excess all the time not just some of them given that all people over ch 3 have access to the spire.

Everyone might have access, but there's variation in how much they play, or in how much they win and use the set buildings. If you're in a neighborhood and/or fellowship where they aren't common, then of course they can't have much impact.

 

[Porcinus]

Thanks for adding the Phoenix Artifacts to the Spire! Now if only i can win it to evolve my old Coldfire Phoenix before it becomes irrelevant LOL.
Currently i have 7 Owl Artifacts and 1 Bear that i cannot use - too bad there isnt any way to convert them
Also, i dont see how you guys with a Moonstone Library set (nevermind more than 1) are keeping them up to the current chapter... the parts rarely show up in the Magic Academy or Spire and Royal Restorations are very hard to get.

 

[AtaguS]

Some of my cities have an abundance of crystals, others are crying out for silk yet we don't have any building to blame for those imbalances.

Sure, these abundances and shortages exist for silk and crystal, and they should exist for scrolls to the same degree if nothing "extra" were effecting scrolls. Inno, as you pointed out already, built this into the game on purpose. What is happening with scrolls - what I and many other players are experiencing- goes beyond those normal shortages and abundances. What then, is the extra influence? I can say just as easily that the absence of a formal "study" and resulting evidence doesn't mean there isn't a problem either. If enough people are standing outside and water is falling onto them from a passing cloud...it is a fair assumption there is rain at play.

 

[Silver Lady]

What did Inno do to the percentages for the rewards in the Spire? I have never before won so many Spell Fragments and so few Time Instances. And coin rains & supply refills, really? I thought the notes on the change indicated that players in Chapter 6 and up would have more opportunities to win Portal Profits. Where did I go wrong?

 

[samidodamage]

if only i can win it to evolve my old Coldfire Phoenix

The artifacts in the Spire won't work on the Coldfire. They work on the Fire, Storm, and Aureate Phoenixes only.
As far as the Moonstone Library sets, I don't care about keeping them current. I get what I care about (CC's) regardless of the chapter. Yes, to do that floods me with scrolls and spell fragments (I have 10 sets in one city, 3 in the other and looking to place more there!). I like to cycle the Mystery Object in crafting as often as possible to earn more diamonds. In the city with 10 sets I'm boosted in crystal and take trades only for silk outside my FS. I will take scroll trades from FS members boosted in scrolls since they can't get those trades taken outside the FS. In the other city I'm scroll boosted, down to one Scrolls factory and will be taking it out soon since I can't get my scrolls trades taken outside the FS there, either and I get plenty of scrolls from my Library sets.

 

[AtaguS]

What did Inno do to the percentages for the rewards in the Spire? I have never before won so many Spell Fragments and so few Time Instances. And coin rains & supply refills, really? I thought the notes on the change indicated that players in Chapter 6 and up would have more opportunities to win Portal Profits. Where did I go wrong?

Same! It went SF-SF-SF-SF-SF-Artifact!-SF-SF-SF lol.
But you know Inno, they fix one leaky pipe and three others burst in the room next door!

 

[DeletedUser27062]

The real problem is that normal goods are traded regionally and not globally, like sentient goods are. So there will be pockets all over a server with different imbalances. There may also be imbalances within a fellowship, if the AW is not careful to recruit an even mix of players with different boosts. And as part of the regional problem, there is the issue of who quits and what their boosts were. Say you have discovered 150 neighbors and you look at all their boosts and there are 50 boosted in each of the three tier 2 goods. But when you look closer with elvenstats, you see that half of those boosted in silk and crystal no longer play, while almost none of the scroll-boosted players have quit. Then boom, instant imbalance, regardless of how many Moonstone sets the remaining active neighbors have. Or it could be the opposite and most of the scrolls-boosted players quit because no one wanted their scrolls and now there is a scrolls shortage in that part of the server.

^^This is exactly it. We can be reasonably sure there are imbalances but without insight we can't say what the causes are. Given the complexity with which Inno balance out the human steel vs elven steel production incongruity I can only imagine they're at least aware of it and probably even try to mitigate it somewhat.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

What did Inno do to the percentages for the rewards in the Spire? I have never before won so many Spell Fragments and so few Time Instances. And coin rains & supply refills, really? I thought the notes on the change indicated that players in Chapter 6 and up would have more opportunities to win Portal Profits. Where did I go wrong?

It's been the most depressing week on the spire for me; I got more bonus chests than I've ever had before but the "prizes" were awful! Out of 8 cities I got 1 artifact, 67 supply/coin instants and a few small (45/30 min) time boosters. Perhaps they thought we'd be so enamoured by the phoenix artifact that we wouldn't notice we were being shafted.

I don't understand why they'd put supply instants in the gold & purple chests. Getting them as a prize is like getting socks and undies for your birthday

 

[DeletedUser27062]

Sure, these abundances and shortages exist for silk and crystal, and they should exist for scrolls to the same degree if nothing "extra" were effecting scrolls. Inno, as you pointed out already, built this into the game on purpose. What is happening with scrolls - what I and many other players are experiencing- goes beyond those normal shortages and abundances. What then, is the extra influence? I can say just as easily that the absence of a formal "study" and resulting evidence doesn't mean there isn't a problem either. If enough people are standing outside and water is falling onto them from a passing cloud...it is a fair assumption there is rain at play.

I don't mean to be argumentative Atagus but I specifically acknowledged that there is a problem. I've seen it and experienced it myself. The problem is you aren't standing outside when water is falling - you're seeing the puddles.

 

[AtaguS]

I don't mean to be argumentative Atagus but I specifically acknowledged that there is a problem. I've seen it and experienced it myself. The problem is you aren't standing outside when water is falling - you're seeing the puddles.

I am not intending to get into an argument with you either - I promise. My hope here is that we can each have our points of view and lay them out respectfully. To that end, I will not attempt to classify your experiences if you would agree not to classify mine. I'm not looking at puddles...nor are the other players in this thread, elsewhere on the forum, or in my own fs. We are out here, amid of deluge of moonstones, calling attention to an actual imbalance which - because we've been playing long before the moonstone and since - we see becoming a real problem since the moonstone.

Might other dynamics and influences be contributing the problem? I'd be surprised if they weren't...but none of those other dynamics threw the balance so wildly off the way the moonstone library did and continues to do. So at the very least it is the likeliest, largest culprit and deserves recognition and a real fix. I keep pushing this with you because I'm hearing you say that without a formal study on the matter I cannot draw this conclusion. While this is a true statement which can be applied to any anecdotal statement made anywhere, it too broadly dismisses some obvious observations and experiences expressed by myself and others. So I am pushing back on it (not on you personally).

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

^^This is exactly it. We can be reasonably sure there are imbalances but without insight we can't say what the causes are. Given the complexity with which Inno balance out the human steel vs elven steel production incongruity I can only imagine they're at least aware of it and probably even try to mitigate it somewhat.

Also remember that the differences between human and elf in tier 1 production disappears once you are in chapter 9 and complete the tier 1 research and upgrade. After that, there are no size differences or different production amounts. Level 20+ tier 1 factories are the same for everyone.