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News from Beta - May Contain Spoilers!

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MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
I love the idea of an AW to cut negotiating costs. I think there should have been such an AW released long ago. I fight almost exclusively so I wouldn't benefit so much from such an AW, but there seem to be so many AWs and buildings that help military, but there aren't so many that can help someone negotiate to a similar extent. I haven't done any calculations and I could be totally wrong, but I doubt there are even a handful of cities that negotiate their way to the top 30 in a tournament each week? It seems there should be something to make the non-military path a bit more equal. Please let me know if you are someone who frequently negotiates to the top 30. I'd like to know if I am way off base on my assessment of the disparity between fighting and negotiating.
That would likely be impossible, at least in the later chapters. Perhaps if one stays in one of the earlier chapters and have 500+ scouted provinces, but I still doubt that.

As for the later chapters, just look at negotiation costs per single encounter. To be in top 30 you will need to go to provinces 30-40+ at least. A single encounter there (not even the whole province) in chapter 15 can easily cost several dozen Ks of regular goods. You simply cannot have enough production to make it sustainable, even with max number of expansions and all boosts.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I think the main reason why not many negotiate to the top 30 is because of the imbalance compared to fighting, as you say. I recently switched from a catering focus to a military focus, and the military advantages are substantial. The irony is that even if such an AW is ever offered in a later chapter, it still wouldn't be an ideal balance, since something like that would be extremely helpful in the earlier chapters (just as the military AWs are).
Balance never exist since the combination of both is always better then one or the other.
 

Some.one

Well-Known Member
But that balances out with the spire, where it's for me at least the opposith.
That is an interesting perspective. I admit that I generally cater more than fight in the Spire as well, though I have attributed that to not being far enough in the chapters to have 3* troops with a high number of squads. My comparisons have been mostly just with respect to tourneys. Even with catering I do not go far in the spire because the catering costs are way too high for me as well.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
That is an interesting perspective. I admit that I generally cater more than fight in the Spire as well, though I have attributed that to not being far enough in the chapters to have 3* troops with a high number of squads. My comparisons have been mostly just with respect to tourneys. Even with catering I do not go far in the spire because the catering costs are way too high for me as well.
Thats more then fair enough on my second account on a new world I am progressing so fast atm that I simply can't keep up with the building upgrades.
As a result I can't keep up with the production as well, I am almost as fas that my production is on par, then I need to resupply my stock before I can make the next step.

So I totally get your point, but then I fight in this stage I easily loss 6-10 units on a fight, to me that loss is to big.
I know some people fight there way up with combat buidings but to me I never seem to get the correct battles in the tower to take proper advantage for that compared with the tourney, and I dont like to give up one for the other.

It will take a little bit more effort to adapt, but this new super speedy racing trough chapters thing with shortage of everyting due to a brand new world with no legacy is a whole new experience I am to a certain extend enjoying it.
The game has surely evolved a lot in the past 2 years to combat/supplement sentient goods.
 

DeletedUser3220

Guest
If I'm not mistaken, the artifact conversion recipe was removed from beta just prior to FA. If they do this on live servers, it will be really frustrating. Most of my FS players ditched all their coldfire for phoenix artifacts. Without the conversion recipe available, this FA's reward would be useless.
I think Inno could make it where we'd choose which artifact we would like to convert into another. I don't have enough artifacts for some evolving buildings I want and too many for the ones I don't want to place in my city. They could add the old artifacts to the MA choices or make a spell maybe. Something would be better than them just setting there. I guess I could sell them but I have so many things to sell already. Why should I work to achieve more that I'm just going to have to sell in the end? Any thoughts?
 

Pheryll

Well-Known Member
I think Inno could make it where we'd choose which artifact we would like to convert into another. I don't have enough artifacts for some evolving buildings I want and too many for the ones I don't want to place in my city. They could add the old artifacts to the MA choices or make a spell maybe. Something would be better than them just setting there. I guess I could sell them but I have so many things to sell already. Why should I work to achieve more that I'm just going to have to sell in the end? Any thoughts?
Their reasoning is that they do not want the instantaneous ability to bring your evolving building up to level ten at the start of the event (without purchase of event currency). However, I do not think the exchange of 3 phoenix to 1 coldfire is heavily used intentionally; so they could delay the conversion to the new artifact until after the event is over.
 

DeletedUser3220

Guest
And make it a better ratio. Say 2:1, then it would be worth purchasing during this event. With a 3:1 exchange ratio in the MA the buildings are not worth bothering with. I can find other ways to make up the difference. It may not be equal to space/pop/culture/items/etc. and may take more of my time, but it will do.
But I understand what your saying. Thanks for your response!
 

KarlD

Well-Known Member
I think the main reason why not many negotiate to the top 30 is because of the imbalance compared to fighting, as you say. I recently switched from a catering focus to a military focus, and the military advantages are substantial. The irony is that even if such an AW is ever offered in a later chapter, it still wouldn't be an ideal balance, since something like that would be extremely helpful in the earlier chapters (just as the military AWs are).
Yeah, I mentioned it should have been released long ago, but it's still something new they could offer. It could still be very helpful for non-fighters who have been long neglected but have stuck with the game to chapter 16 or 17. Basically it would help them to get further in tournies and get some more KP so maybe they could get through research a bit faster, but probably still not as fast as fighter.

At this point what might be a better help for all involved would be a catering discount building that would last 5 days. I don't really have a feel for how many troops a DA or UUU actually saves, but I'm sure Inno does, There's no reason why they can't have a catering discount building that saved a similar amount on catering. Or better yet modify the existing UUU and DA to do double duty. You place them and then select whether you want troop boost or catering discount. Then the caterers can gain something while the fighters stay the same. That might be better than an AW that helps catering because that also helps fighters who can choose to cater more as well as fight. A double duty UUU/DA would do much more to bring parity since a fighter would have to give up fighting benefits to get the catering benefits and more likely than not would stick with fighting. Caterers already win DA buildings in the Spire, but they are kinda useless for them. I really see no downside to double duty UUU/DA.
 

KarlD

Well-Known Member
That would likely be impossible, at least in the later chapters. Perhaps if one stays in one of the earlier chapters and have 500+ scouted provinces, but I still doubt that.

As for the later chapters, just look at negotiation costs per single encounter. To be in top 30 you will need to go to provinces 30-40+ at least. A single encounter there (not even the whole province) in chapter 15 can easily cost several dozen Ks of regular goods. You simply cannot have enough production to make it sustainable, even with max number of expansions and all boosts.
In Sinya Arda you can make top 30 with 20-30 provinces. In March I got #12 in Dust with 7060 points, #16 in Elixir with 7500 points, and #29 in Planks with 5473. 7500 is only 28 provinces to 6 rounds and 5473 is only a bit over 20 provinces, Elixir and Planks aren't even an especially difficult provinces. So maybe in some worlds it's feasible to cater to the top 30, but I don't know.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
In Sinya Arda you can make top 30 with 20-30 provinces. In March I got #12 in Dust with 7060 points, #16 in Elixir with 7500 points, and #29 in Planks with 5473. 7500 is only 28 provinces to 6 rounds and 5473 is only a bit over 20 provinces, Elixir and Planks aren't even an especially difficult provinces. So maybe in some worlds it's feasible to cater to the top 30, but I don't know.
Is that a feasable strategy from chapter 4 onwards? can you generate enough goods to do that?
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
In Sinya Arda you can make top 30 with 20-30 provinces. In March I got #12 in Dust with 7060 points, #16 in Elixir with 7500 points, and #29 in Planks with 5473. 7500 is only 28 provinces to 6 rounds and 5473 is only a bit over 20 provinces, Elixir and Planks aren't even an especially difficult provinces. So maybe in some worlds it's feasible to cater to the top 30, but I don't know.
Even then that would be what, 500-700 encounters? With conservative (?) estimate of 10K of goods of each tier per encounter, that would be 5-7mm of each tier goods per week. Basically, if you can produce about 1mm of each good per day (not including Spire/sentient production etc), then you may be able to hit top 30. Sometimes. On some servers ;)
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Even then that would be what, 500-700 encounters? With conservative (?) estimate of 10K of goods of each tier per encounter, that would be 5-7mm of each tier goods per week. Basically, if you can produce about 1mm of each good per day (not including Spire/sentient production etc), then you may be able to hit top 30. Sometimes. On some servers ;)
Just for a random number, as you know I have all the Squad upgrades, and to cater the first star of my 26th planks province, I need 356k goods total, plus 1340 orcs. So I will never cater again if I want a high score. lol
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
Just for a random number, as you know I have all the Squad upgrades, and to cater the first star of my 26th planks province, I need 356k goods total, plus 1340 orcs. So I will never cater again if I want a high score. lol
Given that there are 4 encounters and 3 tier goods, this averages to about 30K of each tier per encounter. Sounds about right, even though on the high side for me personally (but I have much lower SS than you). Lower provinces will need less to cater, but still. I said that I am being conservative with my estimate here ;)
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
For comparison, I calculated my needings in dust tournament using Fire phoenix + Dwarven Armorer :
http://fr.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/de-léquilibre-entre-combat-et-négociation.20493/post-1011058
(Note : by rewatching this post I saw I made a copy/paste error for my weekly goods production. Actual values per tier are about 1020/1160/1190.)
This means, while this tournament costs me a bit more than my weekly production, for a caterer it's about 3× weekly production for the same score.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Actual catering costs for an end-game city in dust tournament by tier (data reported in french forum by a caterer):
http://fr.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/de-léquilibre-entre-combat-et-négociation.20493/post-1010456
Nice find, canadian?

Loved this sentense
6876 points (soit 24 provinces à 6 étoiles et les provinces de 25 à 30 jusqu'à 2 étoiles) : 9 572 990 T1 + 9 320 710 T2 + 9 946 330 T3 + 131 586 orcs => Mon record.
I take my hat of for this man / woman.
 
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