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    Your Elvenar Team

News from Beta - May Contain Spoilers!

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I can plug my city into Minmax's calculator and mathmatically verify that
the slight increase in tournament and spire expense is more than offset by the benefits of having a stronger developed city - particularly if one is choosy about which AW's to boost one's individual style of play.
.

This holds true through chapter 15.
It falls apart in chapter 16 for me because I am utterly cray-cray about upgrading my wonders.
Playing with minmax calculator I can reduce the impact significantly by favoring premium expansions, keeping my city compact, and limiting my overall number of wonders. Also at that point I can hybridize and add fighting wonders to my mix which will have a significant positive impact.

So the only question is what percentage of players were beyond saving when the changes came in? @Jackluyt IMO more than 5% of players had too many expansions down to make use of the above strategy. The unfortunate wonders can be deleted but that would be painful. Also, any fighter hitting chapter 16 with a max level perfect wonder set up will see a performance reduction. I think that equals more than 5% but being crazy about my own wonders might incline me to prejudice. I am not in the top 5% and my performance will take a hit after chapter 15. Prior to chapter 15 my performance will increase.
 
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Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
I can plug my city into Minmax's calculator and mathmatically verify that
.

This holds true through chapter 15.
It falls apart in chapter 16 for me because I am utterly cray-cray about upgrading my wonders.
Playing with minmax calculator I can reduce the impact significantly by favoring premium expansions, keeping my city compact, and limiting my overall number of wonders. Also at that point I can hybridize and add fighting wonders to my mix which will have a significant positive impact.

So the only question is what percentage of players were beyond saving when the changes came in? @Jackluyt IMO more than 5% of players had too many expansions down to make use of the above strategy. The unfortunate wonders can be deleted but that would be painful. Also, any fighter hitting chapter 16 with a max level perfect wonder set up will see a performance reduction. I think that equals more than 5% but being crazy about my own wonders might incline me to prejudice. I am not in the top 5% and my performance will take a hit after chapter 15. Prior to chapter 15 my performance will increase.
But if you can keep up with the troop requirements to win battles, none of it matters. the formula means more troops needed, not higher difficulty fights. This also means anyone with a leveled up Brown Bear has a big advantage over anyone who does not. I am at the end of chapter 18 and I have been comfortably doing 4000-5000 points per week in the tournament since around chapter 14. I would have been there sooner but I did not build most of the military AWs until that late in the game. I think I mostly catered until around chapter 12 and then started converting to fighting because of the goods cost.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
@Enevhar Aldarion

I have almost maxed my current performance with my city build at my chapter level (7-8) for a pure catering city...almost(top the spire, 5k per week). Upgrading my mountain halls will boost it farther(in process). Using speedup timers on productions would also result in a performance increases (not doing this as my timers are dedicated to opening the mystical object and upgrading buildings). Using more MMs would also increase performance(not happening as I will need those for sentients)Each chapter up to 15 my current performance will increase due to tech tree production increases alone.

After 15 I will take a hit, unless I plant military wonders and start upgrading them and add fighting to my mix. The benefit of upgrading the good military wonders still outpaces the cost increases in the late chapters.
If I decide to continue my crazy and fully upgrade all good military wonders in chapter 15....I will take a hit in chapter 16 like any other fully upgraded fighter,but if I drag the upgrades out I can increase troop production and decrease troop losses and offset the increase from both the wonder levels and the tech advances. :) So you are right for me it does not matter, I can work around it. But a perfectly upgraded chapter 15 fighter will out score me. I am strangely okay with that!
 
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Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
@Iyapo1 just don't forget that orcs will be added to catering in the tournament and Spire in chapter 9 and mana in chapter 10. And in the Spire, seeds in chapter 12, and a tier of sentient goods each chapter after. So pure catering can really go downhill fast from chapter 9+, if you have bad luck in goods requested.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I am ready for orcs! Witch's hut plus room for 7 orcs nest in my newest chapter 8 city and a witch's hut + 9 orcs nests in my older chapter 8 city.
MY older chapter 8 city already has 300k+ orcs :). My newest city, not so impressive but I only have one orcs nest there atm, MA is not favoring me and I have not broken down and used RRs on any chapter 7 orcs nests yet.

Also ready for mana with Triump of Tides, many mana and gum trees, two pilgrims plazas in each city, Mana huts and Manta Ray's in the wings should I need more :)!

My crazy with my over scouting and wonder levels will knock my seeds out of orbit!

My math devolves into a confused mess on sentients. I am just going to have to math that madness once I hit it. They confuse the bejeebers out of me.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I am ready for orcs! Witch's hut plus room for 7 orcs nest in my newest chapter 8 city and a witch's hut + 9 orcs nests in my older chapter 8 city.
MY older chapter 8 city already has 300k+ orcs :). My newest city, not so impressive but I only have one orcs nest there atm, MA is not favoring me and I have not broken down and used RRs on any chapter 7 orcs nests yet.

Also ready for mana with Triump of Tides, many mana and gum trees, two pilgrims plazas in each city, Mana huts and Manta Ray's in the wings should I need more :)!

My crazy with my over scouting and wonder levels will knock my seeds out of orbit!

My math devolves into a confused mess on sentients. I am just going to have to math that madness once I hit it. They confuse the bejeebers out of me.
One terribad RNG-screwed run can easily cost you 50k - 60k+ Orks in a single Spire, even in Ch9.

I've had insane weeks where out of just doing Lv2 has had 20+ of the 32 total encounters demanding Orks as a possible negotiation resource.
I'm sitting on 1.5mil Orks and I still don't feel very secure, since the Spire can chew those boyz up at a frightening rate... plus you'll need Orks to continue upgrading certain buildings as well, and those costs can also quickly become astronomical!

It's almost like the devs are a bunch of clueless muppets who've never actually played their own game?!:rolleyes::p
 

OIM20

Well-Known Member
It's almost like the devs are a bunch of clueless muppets who've never actually played their own game
Response:
Despite the many comments on the Forum that the developers do not play the game, they do. They just don't play it in the same way as an avid Elvenar fan would. When you are developing and programming a game, you're playing with more of a clinical "does this work and how will it bring in revenue" eye that is impossible to separate from merely enjoying the game.

No one, developer or not, is permitted to manipulate the game to benefit their account in the live servers.
Emphasis added.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
@The Unbeliever you need to fear monger at someone who is less fond of Minmax's calculator, someone who has not mathed out to chapter 13, and someone who doesnt out score you.
Score is a semi-pointless metric, since it's easily possible for example, to build a far more efficient city using non-scoring event buildings vs. buildings that actively contribute to city score...
Not to mention the existence of so many push accounts leading to mass cheating, making individual scores even more meaningless.

As I said, yes, it's just my own lived experience, but the RNG can be brutal for negotiators, and thus, you shouldn't go entirely by just whatever 'the math says'.
For starters, my Ch.9 city produces 4930 Orks per day, yet only uses a single armory. (because they're insanely inefficient vs. event buildings, yet event buildings contribute 0 pts to a player's score!) Now obviously, there are some days where the 24hr productions sit and 'roll over' because I don't want to be collecting things at heinous o'clock, so that also has to be factored in.

Sadly, my production is still not enough when there's weeks where an entire run of 4 strait encounters is demanding Orks, and even if/when you can get lucky and solve all 4 encounters without a single extra turn, it can still easily add-up to 4-5k+ Orks.
Now, add in perhaps an extra turn or two, or else, maybe you re-start a negotiation because the 1st round was so god-awful, and you can add another 1.5-3k Orks spent.
(...now multiply that horror 2-3x more across 32 encounters for just Lv1+2! Hence why I'm content to just stay sitting in WE's so as to avoid adding Mana into the possible negotiating mix - da boyz is bad enough! Perhaps once I build a stockpile of 3+mil I'll look at moving forwards:p)

The point is, as you advance in chapter, you need to keep a much more careful eye to the specialised resources because they can disappear in a real hurry! It's taken me roughly two years to go from the 600k I started WE's with to 1.5mil. The only thing I'm spending Orks on btw is the Spire, since I use my troops for tournaments.
Once you hit Seeds & Sentient goods, negotiating the Spire is basically something you only do as an absolute last resort!
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
@OIM20: the devs don't play the game. They use pre-made cities, and/or 'basic set-ups' to ensure things do work. But that's it.

Look at how ridiculous the newest Ascended goods are for trading! Sure, the 'system works', but it's more just purely frustrating vs. in any way challenging. It's so bad & it has slowed progress so much so that we're likely to only get 1 chapter this year vs. 2, simply because it takes too long & too much effort just to scrounge up the basics to progress through the research tree!
(beta *might* see Ch.19 sometime in mid-late Nov or maybe early Dec...)
And of course they design things to entice players to spend money - they're a business, that's hardly news.:p

Now if they actually *did* play their own game and understand the real issues however, we'd get the Spire/Tournament formula fixed so that it no longer actively punishes player advancement.
We'd get new chapters that *aren't* simply a lesson in absolute frustration, unlike what Air Traders & Team Spirit are.
We'd have actual game balance, so that early game players can actually fight on the world map, unlike currently where they're basically forced to cater everything because the battle system sucks!
Event buildings would count towards player scores, and the devs would actively enforce their own terms of service regarding the clusterfeth that push accounts cause!

Instead, we have the current mess of a game that while entertaining & looks much prettier than FoE, is also teeth grindingly frustrating to deal with because of its very glaring basic flaws.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty certain they were referring to outscoring you in the tournament. @Iyapo1 is a 5K+ tournament scorer, consistently more than triple your score (in the tournament)
As long as anyone who has the provinces to do so, at least consistently hits 1650 for the 10 chest goal, everything beyond that is really just personal loot.

Spire costs eat up a lot of what I could instead have spent on the tourney.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
As long as anyone who has the provinces to do so, at least consistently hits 1650 for the 10 chest goal, everything beyond that is really just personal loot.
Sure, but doing 6x6 costs almost nothing in either troops or goods and the formula hardly changes that. It's only when you go further and try to become a high achiever that the impact is really felt.
So if a 5K player is managing and a sub 2K player is struggling there must be something else going on.
Spire costs eat up a lot of what I could instead have spent on the tourney.
The working assumption when comparing tournaments is(or should be) after clearing the spire.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Sure, but doing 6x6 costs almost nothing in either troops or goods and the formula hardly changes that. It's only when you go further and try to become a high achiever that the impact is really felt.
So if a 5K player is managing and a sub 2K player is struggling there must be something else going on.

The working assumption when comparing tournaments is(or should be) after clearing the spire.
The only way I can do 6 rounds of a tournament is if I decide that sleep is for losers once a week, because the devs don't care to accept that time zones are thing.
 

crackie

Well-Known Member
Sure, but doing 6x6 costs almost nothing in either troops or goods and the formula hardly changes that. It's only when you go further and try to become a high achiever that the impact is really felt.
So if a 5K player is managing and a sub 2K player is struggling there must be something else going on.
Yeah, esp since the first 5 provinces are meant to be easy for everyone regardless of where they're at in the game. You outnumber the enemy troops for the most part in those provinces. It only turns yellow on the 6th star round of the 5th province.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
The spire gives buttloads of 5h timers, using 6 of them isn't much. Also, polar bear.
Personally, it's more the principal of the matter... the FoE team have figured out how to time things so that it's more 'fair' across the various time zones.
The only reason we still have that BS in Elvenar is because the devs are just too damn lazy to set things up in a similar manner.

Similar to the BS that's the battle system... a player should not be basically forced to require A+B+C to simply do X+Y at even a basic level.;)
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty certain they were referring to outscoring you in the tournament. @Iyapo1 is a 5K+ tournament scorer, consistently more than triple your score (in the tournament)
When I said that about you and others, you accused me of "attacking" other players. You aren't "attacking" other players, are you? Nevermind, of course you're not, it's only "attacking" when someone else does it!