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    Your Elvenar Team

Penalizing Noncombatant Players

Genefer

Well-Known Member
Ok - Just to be sure I understand the military tech


Armory Tech - Building Upgrades - Increases Training Size
Barrack, Training Grounds, & Mercenary Camp tech - Building Upgrades - Increases training speed
Specific Troop tech - increases Troop Strength (Health & Damage?)
Squad Size tech - increases Squad Size - Number of units in a squad - and fielded


And province difficulty ONLY decreases with squad size research, because more troops are sent to battle?

Am I understanding this correctly?
 

Genefer

Well-Known Member
The difficulty does not decrease - the effectiveness of the players military increases with squad size research - decreasing difficulty because of a more effective military. Makes sense - easier to win when you have more to lose.
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
Ok - Just to be sure I understand the military tech


Armory Tech - Building Upgrades - Increases Training Size
Barrack, Training Grounds, & Mercenary Camp tech - Building Upgrades - Increases training speed
Specific Troop tech - increases Troop Strength (Health & Damage?)
Squad Size tech - increases Squad Size - Number of units in a squad - and fielded


And province difficulty ONLY decreases with squad size research, because more troops are sent to battle?

Am I understanding this correctly?

Correct. Note that the troop techs are ignored by the difficulty marker, even though they would have a significant influence on combat.
 

Genefer

Well-Known Member
The other techs do not affect difficulty because the strength of the Enemy Troops is already set, and the difficulty determined by the ring - not by the research.

Does that mean if a player does not move beyond the number of provinces needed to progress to the next chapter - they should be able to successfully complete encounters with their troops? Assuming their buildings are fully upgraded
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
The other techs do not affect difficulty because the strength of the Enemy Troops is already set, and the difficulty determined by the ring - not by the research.

Does that mean if a player does not move beyond the number of provinces needed to progress to the next chapter - they should be able to successfully complete encounters with their troops? Assuming their buildings are fully upgraded

I don't know if this answers your question, but my city on the Beta server is in chapter 18 and has kept all available unscouted provinces at Easy or Very Easy since about chapter 6 by only scouting enough provinces to start the next chapter, or a little over, but definitely less than what is needed two chapters beyond. As a fighter, that also includes not skipping any optional squad research.
 

Flashfyre

Well-Known Member
The other techs do not affect difficulty because the strength of the Enemy Troops is already set, and the difficulty determined by the ring - not by the research.

Does that mean if a player does not move beyond the number of provinces needed to progress to the next chapter - they should be able to successfully complete encounters with their troops? Assuming their buildings are fully upgraded
My personal result: I have not explored all the provinces needed for the next chapter, and all the remaining ones in the outermost ring I am working through are Very Easy. This means the average enemy squad size is 1/2 of my squad size. Some map encounters have more squads at even lower amounts, some have fewer squads with amounts closer to mine. However, no enemy squad ever equals/exceeds my squad size.
So, yes, I can successfully fight my map encounters without losing many troops, or resorting to the use of pets/martial buildings (phoenixes and MMs and UUUs and DAs and so on). I also don't need the military AWs (Needles, Hero's Forge, Flying Academy, Toads, etc) to boost my troop production. I have 2 leveled Armories, and my 3 troop making buildings are almost fully leveled. In fact, I have so many squads, and lose so few, that I rarely have to build any troops at all; I get enough supplied from my various event buildings and Season rewards to keep my inventories above 100 squads of each troop type.

Where I feel those of us who cater more than fight are being short-changed is in the lack of buildings that reduce catering costs for all encounters, Map/Spire/Tourney, the way those craftable buildings help reduce troop losses. We also don't have anything like the troop first aid instants that would refund a portion of failed negotiation costs the way those things let you heal troops after losing them to an encounter.
 

Genefer

Well-Known Member
troop first aid instants that would refund a portion of failed negotiation costs the way those things let you heal troops after losing them to an encounter.

That's true

Other than a catering only city - we all have hybrid cities, even though some are heavily tilted on way or the other. So, I wouldn't say it is unfair, but it is a bit unbalanced in favor of troop use.

When you think about it - a fairly balanced city or catering city has the advantage, because our currency for the Spire & Tournament is diversified, this allows us flexibility to pay for upgrades and research.


I try to keep my city as close to balance as I can, but it does tilt to catering a bit, because I cater once my troops have been exhausted or become ineffective - and of course province 26 + are very expensive.

I also, try to keep my troop wonders close to the same levels, the wonders need for my culture Bonus/wholesaler, grouping a bit but trying to keep them close in value.

For example - the Sunset & Simia - Seeds spent to produce Sentient Goods or Seeds saved through acquiring Sentient Goods without production cost - I don't want my Sunset my 17 and my Simia at 8 - because seeds invested in sentient are decaying at the rate of the Simia not the Sunset.


Troop Wonders - I want my troops to be close to the same level of durability - I don't want a level 20 needles and a level 3 Temple of Toads


Anyway,

Every time I progress to a new chapter, I am anticipating extreme difficulty - based on comments I have read in the forum or from FS peers, but so far, I have never struggled in research or upgrades.

Again, and again players stressed the lengthy duration required to get through Chapter 15. I sat in 15 for 6 months working on my Wonders. I completed the chapter in 2 parts - 1 completed the 3-star troops research took around 3.5 weeks and the 2nd part took another 3 or 4 weeks.

Though I do only have Magic Residences & Workshops - that is definitely an advantage, even so I don't think it would have cost me more than another month.


A lot of these players that rate Chapter 15 as difficult and to expect to spend months and months to acquire the resources.,... they tend to be players that are heavily invested in their troops. I think this is where catering, a balanced hybrid, or hybrid slightly tilted more to cater have the advantage, because catering requires diverse currency, which gives us the ability to do a bit less in the Spire or Tournament and then divert those resources to research and upgrades.


This is not a benefit for cities heavily invested in troops - they will always be able to complete a consistent number of encounters but will have a more difficult time - longer duration & higher loss to decay - than players that use both troops and resources for encounters.


This is not to suggest that every city heavily invested in troops has a rough time - there are many other variables, but I think it is a logical assessment of what might explain the accounts of difficulty in chapters.


Those of use that cater and use troops benefit from the vitality surge too, but it would still be nice to have a resource surge lol
 
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Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Advanced Scouts is this tech. These techs have an exponential effect, while SS techs have a quadratic effect. If we had one Advanced Scouts every chapter, then the difficulty band for encounters would be very easy as scouting could not keep up.
You are correct about the exponential decrease advanced scouts gives and the SS techs increase is a quadratic equation. But your conclusion is not correct since the cost of scouting continues to grow. Each chapter requires more provs to be completed that the previous one and you have to move to higher rings. This more than offsets the decrease advanced scouts gives to scouting cost. Only chapters 13, 14, 16, 18 and 19 don't have the advanced scouts tech and I know the cost of scouting at the end of each chapter was higher than the cost at the end of the previous one in every chapter before these, though I don't have any numbers to prove this.
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
You are correct about the exponential decrease advanced scouts gives and the SS techs increase is a quadratic equation. But your conclusion is not correct since the cost of scouting continues to grow. Each chapter requires more provs to be completed that the previous one and you have to move to higher rings. This more than offsets the decrease advanced scouts gives to scouting cost. Only chapters 13, 14, 16, 18 and 19 don't have the advanced scouts tech and I know the cost of scouting at the end of each chapter was higher than the cost at the end of the previous one in every chapter before these, though I don't have any numbers to prove this.

The conclusion is correct, in that it was the reason why the Elvenar Team stopped offering Advanced Scouts every chapter. They noticed that the scout difficulty was getting low too fast with people progressing through chapters, and wished for the techs to be more sparing so that combat wouldn't degenerate into trivial encounters.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Correct. Note that the troop techs are ignored by the difficulty marker, even though they would have a significant influence on combat.
Aren't they? When they brought in the markers they did say it was influenced by more than squad size comparison but did not specify what else was included. I never looked into it but assumed things like this were possibly included. They did say the SS comparison was the major factor though. The markers were close enough indicators I didn't think it was worth the effort to look into it.

We also don't have anything like the troop first aid instants that would refund a portion of failed negotiation costs the way those things let you heal troops after losing them to an encounter.
Catering also never fails to successfully work either (spire as the exception). Those saying catering is unfairly disadvantaged better figure out how beneficial a 100% win is to them as it seems to be conveniently ignored. Not to mention the gap in skill and experience required to click a button and win verse that required for the harder difficulty fights. Or that the combat system is designed with impossible to win scenarios, hence the bonus buildings and such to allow some to go further than the 2:1 limit.

They did indicate spire was done so catering had a chance to fail so in many ways that equalizes their advantage. Likely also explains why the new building only impacts spire costs, how unfair would it be to make a 100% win even cheaper?

There are pros and cons to both and neither can be 100% equal as their systems are different. But I would argue they are pretty even all things considered, not surprising as balanced appears to be the game design.
 

Flashfyre

Well-Known Member
Catering also never fails to successfully work either (spire as the exception). Those saying catering is unfairly disadvantaged better figure out how beneficial a 100% win is to them as it seems to be conveniently ignored. Not to mention the gap in skill and experience required to click a button and win verse that required for the harder difficulty fights. Or that the combat system is designed with impossible to win scenarios, hence the bonus buildings and such to allow some to go further than the 2:1 limit.

They did indicate spire was done so catering had a chance to fail so in many ways that equalizes their advantage. Likely also explains why the new building only impacts spire costs, how unfair would it be to make a 100% win even cheaper?

There are pros and cons to both and neither can be 100% equal as their systems are different. But I would argue they are pretty even all things considered, not surprising as balanced appears to be the game design.
And yet, for every encounter (Spire, Tourney or Map) that I cater, I lose 100% of every resource offered, yet fighting players do not lose all their troops. In fact, through skill and the use of healing instants, it is possible to win encounters and not lose a single troop resource. But I don't have that benefit: if the cost to negotiate is 85 Orcs, 1475 Marble and 2100 Seeds, I spend all of that to win. Thus, every negotiated win is a full loss of resources used, while fighting wins only lose some of the resources used.

Seems that fighting players don't have the same threat of depleted inventories as caterers do. But do continue complaining how fighters have it so tough and need even more boosts, benefits and helping hands.
 

Silly Bubbles

You cant pop them all
That is why it has always been said that a hybrid city is better, cater only or fight only doesn't really work, players can force it to work but at a great cost and cost of space. Take the easy route of a hybrid city.

I agree. Both 100% fighting and 100% catering is difficult. And I believe that majority of players use both (only Inno knows) and that's probably why the game accommodates this style the most. Of course, everyone is free to play whichever way they want but the game can't adjust to the minority and ignore the majority unless there's a win win solution.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Seems that fighting players don't have the same threat of depleted inventories as caterers do
try losing all your troops at top of spire or in a later tourny round. Fighters are at the perils of bad map gen and RNG and AI. Yes they can avoid losing troops but when they lose they lose big. I have never lost 10's of millions on a cater but I sure can lose a weeks troops if I am not careful or get a bad run of the AI. Nothing like losing a fight that you have the right squad size and troops for due to AI/Map. Its a risk thing, combat can take minimal losses but you gotta "bet" with a lot and hope you don't lose.

As a practical example my current tourney province will cost me less than a half day of goods. While to fight it I am using approx. 5days of troop production. Even a tiny loss there will outstrip the cost of goods. Personally I do what is best for my town so I adapt between combat and cater as suits me. If I know it is a bad fight I will cater it, or a bad cater then I fight it. troops are just another type of resource in this game
 
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crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
try losing all your troops at top of spire or in a later tourny round. Fighters are at the perils of bad map gen and RNG and AI. Yes they can avoid losing troops but when they lose they lose big.
Last week, we were close to 17th chest and as one of our larger cities, I tried to push more to get us there, even though I was already done with tourney with Timewarp. The march to province 50 from 45 was a bloody massacre because someone forgot her Fire Phoenix feed expired. First loss, I thought it was just stupid terrain RNG issue so I blindly sent a new combo of troops to take care of it. After the third try though, I had the “wait-a-minute” epiphany because something smelled fishy and it didn’t add up. Even though it was only 5 more provinces, I think the amount of troops that committed seppuku would have been enough for me to fight the first 20 provinces this week. I had to throw Drone Riders and Sword Dancers into the fray this week to finish crawling across the finish line.
 
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