Penalizing Noncombatant Players

[StarLoad]

You should, it's fantastic. Give it a try instead of listening to all the whingers out there who haven't even given it a chance.

I won't for the simple reason that if I open it I will not be able to ignore it, any more than I can let the Event Currency sit on the screen uncollected, and then I have to use it to play, and poof I am sucked into it. It is an OCD thing I guess but if I never unlock it I won't have to worry.

Ed

 

[SoggyShorts]

I won't for the simple reason that if I open it I will not be able to ignore it, any more than I can let the Event Currency sit on the screen uncollected, and then I have to use it to play, and poof I am sucked into it. It is an OCD thing I guess but if I never unlock it I won't have to worry.

Ed

I ... Just don't get it.
The cauldron is good. It's not perfect, but it's certainly better than no cauldron, so choosing no cauldron makes no sense to me.
I mean you do you, I'm not getting any commission from people using the cauldron, it's just a bizarre choice not to imo.

 

[Rp44]

Yes the new tech tree still has optional techs.

Try looking at it this way: now you get to choose how many effects you unlock for the cauldron. The fewer you unlock, the better the chances are for those effects because you can use a wider variety of ingredients (cheaper overall) without diluting the potion with minor effects you don't want. It doesn't matter which chapters are fully completed, just how many, so you can choose to complete the chapters with the fewest optional techs.

If you just stick with the coins and supplies effects, you'll almost certainly get more goods out of going to the wholesaler with the extra than if you unlocked more to get to the goods effects, which only boost the base production (that can't be stressed enough).

I honestly wish I could undo a couple of chapters of optional techs for the purposes of the cauldron. There are five diplomas between troop effects in the teens and I'm in the middle of those because I don't complete all the optional techs either. If I could return a couple of my diplomas I'd have better chances to trigger the effects I actually want. So I envy you a little, MenolyDragonmist. Not for all that KP, but for the choices open to you.

 

[Queen of Beltane]

Yeah, 4% troop boost is as high as I've gotten. I have 15 diplomas and all of the effect increases for troops is at 30. I don't really need help with anything else, I forget to use it half the time.

 

[Sprite1313]

In the technology tree I have skipped all optional squadron upgrades since they are not applicable.

Pretty sure those optional SSU, while not applicable to fighting, are still beneficial to you. They lower the difficulty of map encounters. I had skipped a bunch (I save them for "complete one research" quests), and just finished them. Lo and behold, my map difficulty (therefore negotiating costs) decreased. Maybe not as valuable as for a fighter (which I am), but no entirely non-applicable, either.

 

[Silly Bubbles]

Yes the new tech tree still has optional techs.

Try looking at it this way: now you get to choose how many effects you unlock for the cauldron. The fewer you unlock, the better the chances are for those effects because you can use a wider variety of ingredients (cheaper overall) without diluting the potion with minor effects you don't want. It doesn't matter which chapters are fully completed, just how many, so you can choose to complete the chapters with the fewest optional techs.

If you just stick with the coins and supplies effects, you'll almost certainly get more goods out of going to the wholesaler with the extra than if you unlocked more to get to the goods effects, which only boost the base production (that can't be stressed enough).

I honestly wish I could undo a couple of chapters of optional techs for the purposes of the cauldron. There are five diplomas between troop effects in the teens and I'm in the middle of those because I don't complete all the optional techs either. If I could return a couple of my diplomas I'd have better chances to trigger the effects I actually want. So I envy you a little, MenolyDragonmist. Not for all that KP, but for the choices open to you.

Yes, it dilutes one effect but it adds more effects. Because it's possible to get up to 10 different effects (when two potions overlap each other), it's better to have more effects unlocked. The more effects unlocked, the more different effects you can get when you brew.
Eg. If you have one military effect unlocked, you can have 40% chance of getting it. If you have two military effects unlocked, the chance of getting each one of them reduces (eg 30% each) but combined chances of getting a military effect increases to 60% (2x30%) and there is a high chance of getting them both. So you effectively double the military boost.
Once, I was able to get four different military effects out of one potion but usually get two. I have all Diplomas unlocked because of the large reduction of 25% in study cost per each additional Diploma.

 

[Deleted User - 849777001]

I am on the caterer's side!

I Have an Astral Phoenix and 1/2 placed and have to do as much Spire as possible within their 12 hour feed...which uses a lot of time instants (partially replaced in Spire) and It gets me up to Lab.

My complaint is I have 111/2 hours left of my feeding...but then can't utilize it in Tourney.
If it were a Fire Chicken...I could utilize the feeding in both Spire and Tourney.
Sooooooo...
While it is great to have a Phoenix that supports caterer's...to be so restricted in it's use is tooth-grinding-ly frustrating.

Does feeding the FireChick also help the troops when clearing Provinces?

 

[Lelanya]

I am on the caterer's side!

I Have an Astral Phoenix and 1/2 placed and have to do as much Spire as possible within their 12 hour feed...which uses a lot of time instants (partially replaced in Spire) and It gets me up to Lab.

My complaint is I have 111/2 hours left of my feeding...but then can't utilize it in Tourney.
If it were a Fire Chicken...I could utilize the feeding in both Spire and Tourney.
Sooooooo...
While it is great to have a Phoenix that supports caterer's...to be so restricted in it's use is tooth-grinding-ly frustrating.

Does feeding the FireChick also help the troops when clearing Provinces?

Yes it does help with all fighting.

 

[Genefer]

By being a non-combat city you gain a very significant advantage in space

No, because catering requires a lot of Standard Goods, Sentient Goods, coins, supplies, Orcs, Mana, Seeds ..... and all the Ancient Wonders to assist in catering resource production & acquisition - including the hybrids - Dragon Abbey, Heroes' Forge, Pyramid of Purification, Simia Sapiens..... of course, needs are relative to the player's level of Spire & Tournament participation.


There is not a space advantage, however a catering city does have greater versatility than a city that complete encounters with Troops exclusively. You can't use troops for research or building upgrades - it is a one trick currency.

An entire city producing coin, supplies, goods..... can decrease tournament of spire encounters for the week to pay for research or upgrades.

Three quarters of a city spent to produce Troops will guarantee Spire & Tournament, but can also potentially increase resources lost to decay, because of the longer duration required to acquire the quantity of goods for research and/or upgrades.


I can understand the frustration of this exclusion for players that choose to cater exclusively if you were led to believe a hybrid city was not required. However, there are only 2 types of cities - the catering city & the hybrid city and 99% are hybrids so it makes sense the quests... target the hybrid city.


As far as the squad size research - I complete that because it decreases the cost and duration of scouting and the cost of completing provinces, both troops & catering resources.


Also, I love the Cauldron the coin & supply effect are both at 72 & the Orc effect is at 75 - mana & seed effects are the lowest at 41.

As a player that both caters & fights encounters - I am stunned to hear a player with an exclusive catering strategy state that 9 wholesaler purchases in a week is a reflection of an over production of coins & supplies. All I want are Coin, Supply, and/or Orc potions.

It is all relative to the player.

 

[Pheryll]

As far as the squad size research - I complete that because it decreases the cost and duration of scouting and the cost of completing provinces, both troops & catering resources.

Huh? I get that advanced scouts does this, but when squad size techs end up reducing the relative difficulty (e.g. medium reduced to easy) they can do this for already scouted provinces, even though the amount of enemies to fight and resources needed to cater are locked in once the scouting is complete. If there was a significant difference in scouting time for those that skipped all the optional, versus all those who took the optional, it would have been noticed a while back when we had players in one camp or the other with similar total scouting (as the old tournament system had its difficulty based on squad size). As far as I know, researching squad size only impacts three things: 1) The number of troops you can send into province encounters 2) Ancient wonder benefits based on squad size 3) The relative difficulty marker over provinces. What it does not do is lower the scouting cost, the scouting time, the troops you would need to fight, or the goods you would have to cater.

 

[lauren1957]

Is this really a penalty? If you have the blooming trader guild, the crystal lighthouse (or great bellspire), the lighthouse of good neighborhood, and the prosperity towers you could be banking a huge amount of goods from the wholesaler from your supplies. Just having one chapter complete nearly guarantees the supply buff each week.

It is worse than that! My 'friend' finished chapter 20 yet because she chose to use PPs instead of wasting time building the last set of ensembles, she is penalized in cauldron. She did every single tech, but the system seems to go by questline. This needs to be changed, pronto!

 

[Flashfyre]

It is worse than that! My 'friend' finished chapter 20 yet because she chose to use PPs instead of wasting time building the last set of ensembles, she is penalized in cauldron. She did every single tech, but the system seems to go by questline. This needs to be changed, pronto!

How is she being penalized? If it's because there is a greyed-out boost that she can't get, that is because that one won't be available until completion of Chapter 21 (whenever that happens).
And, no, the Cauldron doesn't go by questline; boosts are unlocked by gaining diplomas, which are gained by fully completing all chapter techs. Have her check all her chapters for full completion - if there is even 1 optional tech not done, it will reduce her diploma count and prevent a boost from unlocking.

 

[MaidenFair]

No, because catering requires a lot of Standard Goods, Sentient Goods, coins, supplies, Orcs, Mana, Seeds ..... and all the Ancient Wonders to assist in catering resource production & acquisition - including the hybrids - Dragon Abbey, Heroes' Forge, Pyramid of Purification, Simia Sapiens..... of course, needs are relative to the player's level of Spire & Tournament participation.


There is not a space advantage, however a catering city does have greater versatility than a city that complete encounters with Troops exclusively. You can't use troops for research or building upgrades - it is a one trick currency.

Soggy isn’t around any more to see this, so I’ll take a stab at answering. I don’t see how it’s possible for us not to have a space advantage. Yes, we need lots of all those things but fighters still need to produce all of those too, plus all the military buildings and Fire Phoenix and expiring buildings and armories and more wonders, and extra workshops to support troop production, and residences to support those, and…the list goes on. I’m happily working my way through Amuni with a tourney average of ~6200 and Spire to the top every week on only 71 expansions. Would it be possible for a fighter to maintain those levels while still advancing through the tech tree at a reasonable pace in that amount of space?

Personally, I’ve skipped the hybrids so far. Heroes’ Forge is a total waste of space when considered only for its orc production, and Dragon Abbey seems to be the same way with mana (for my city, at least. I realise this will be a very unpopular opinion, lol.) I may build the Pyramid or Simia to help with sentients but I haven’t unlocked those yet, so haven’t had to make that decision.

Huh? I get that advanced scouts does this, but when squad size techs end up reducing the relative difficulty (e.g. medium reduced to easy) they can do this for already scouted provinces, even though the amount of enemies to fight and resources needed to cater are locked in once the scouting is complete. If there was a significant difference in scouting time for those that skipped all the optional, versus all those who took the optional, it would have been noticed a while back when we had players in one camp or the other with similar total scouting (as the old tournament system had its difficulty based on squad size). As far as I know, researching squad size only impacts three things: 1) The number of troops you can send into province encounters 2) Ancient wonder benefits based on squad size 3) The relative difficulty marker over provinces. What it does not do is lower the scouting cost, the scouting time, the troops you would need to fight, or the goods you would have to cater.

This comes up every few months with proponents on both sides being adamant. Your point 3 is the key, I think. (Edit: I was apparently working with incorrect assumptions. See the following posts for correct information) The relative difficulty marker on the provinces governs the cost to scout it as well as the cost to cater encounters within it. A Very Easy province is cheaper to cater than an Easy province, so if the ss research affects the color, it also affects the cost. I’m fairly sure, from both my own experience, and from info in a previous discussion on the forums, that researching squad size techs decreases (or can decrease) the cost in coins to scout a province, thereby also decreasing the time to scout (which numbers are tied together, I believe), and simultaneously the cost to cater the encounters within it. This only applies to unscouted provinces, not ones that have already been scouted; no matter what color those show now, their costs were fixed at the moment you clicked ‘scout’.

 

[Pheryll]

The relative difficulty marker on the provinces governs the cost to scout it as well as the cost to cater encounters within it.

If this is the case one would expect that the cost of scouting would significantly increase in a specific ring once the last of a certain difficulty band has been scouted. I have observed that the cost gradually increases regardless of the point the difficulty band changes.

As I see it, the difficulty markers are dependent on both the cost of scouting and the amount of troops you can bring in. Thus bringing more troops in (by increasing squad size) would impact the difficulty marker and not the cost of scouting.

 

[Yogi Dave]

NOTE: After writing this I went looking for reference material to support what I believe to be true. However, I haven't been able to find much. As a result, I'm going to open a thread in the Q&A section tomorrow asking for info to support or correct what I believe is what I've learned from others over the 6 years I've played this silly game. It seems like most of the info came from my experience, but most came from @Mykan, @SoggyShorts (who is no longer around to help) and @CrazyWizard. That being said, I'm going to leave the post as I've written it. I'll acknowledge errors later.

All of the following is about world provs only: scouting, encounters, squad size techs, and both yours and the enemies squad sizes. It is not about squad size for tourneys or the spire. That is entirely a different beast.

I could be wrong on this, but don't the squad size upgrades affect the difficulty in scouting provinces, and therefore the difficulty in negotiating or fighting provincial encounters? If so, that would be another incentive to complete the squad upgrade research.

Squad size upgrades increases the squad size shown in the army camp tab. Since in a prov battle you bring in your squad size, the number of troops you are bringing increases by the amount of your squad size increase. That is the complete effect of a squad size upgrade. Therefore,

As far as I know, researching squad size only impacts three things: 1) The number of troops you can send into province encounters 2) Ancient wonder benefits based on squad size 3) The relative difficulty marker over provinces. What it does not do is lower the scouting cost, the scouting time, the troops you would need to fight, or the goods you would have to cater.

is correct.

The difficulty makers only reflect the difficult of fighting. When your squad size increases, the difficulty marker usually will drop back to a lower level since your squad size increased. The enemies squad size remains the same as does the negotiation cost. The best way to see this is to look at an encounter before you complete a squad size tech to see your and their squad sizes and the cost to negotiate. Then complete a squad size tech. When you look again, their squad size and negotiation cost will be exactly the same, but your squad size will have increased.

The cost to scout is strictly dependent on which ring the prov is in and how many provs have been scouted. Scouting a prov in the same ring does a modest increase in cost whereas a change in ring has a much larger increase in the cost to scout. Therefore, scouting a higher ring number will increase the enemies squad size and negotiation cost more than one with a smaller ring number. The cost and time to scout is decreased when you complete an Advanced Scouting tech. Therefore, the enemy squad size and negotiation cost decrease for provs scouted after the tech is completed. It has no effect on previously scouted provs.

In this picture, the provs on the left are in ring 10 and the ones on the right are in ring 11. The bottom 2 are the cost after scouting the top left one. I was surprised the bottom right's cost didn't change. Maybe by the time ring 10 has been fully scouted, it will change. Even stranger, when I scouted a ring 11 prov, the ring 10 cost went up by 10k, but the ring 11 ones stayed 1200K

 

[Mykan]

Reading this thread makes me feel like I am playing a different game to a lot of people. Only read a few things but they were either wrong or misleading, far too much time needed to address such things.

Real briefly as that is all I have at the moment

• @Yogi Dave great explanation 100% correct. Very simply cost to scout determines cost/difficulty (number of troops), once scouted it is fixed at that level
• Cauldron penalties on how it counts research hurts everyone, it isn't targeting one group. If I want a certain benefit i have to research stuff I had ignored. Up to me to decide if it is worth it or not
• Catering only is a niche build, why would you expect the game to allow for it in everything you do? Devs have always made it clear what buildings they see as core to the game (try and delete everything and you'll work it out). If you pick a build that doesn't incorporate a core part of the design of course aspects of the game will be hard.
• I have lost count on the number of phoenixs but someone might want to go and recount those that help with your towns catering and economy. It is certainly not 1 it started at 2 verse 1 if one must pick sides of what helps combat and what helps economy (if it helps your economy it helps you cater)

Regarding the space discussion it is very complex as there are a lot of levers. What you want to achieve in tournament (assuming gold spire) has a big impact. But any town wanting 20 province and top of spire is not that hard to do and can still have a lot of space. My gut says a catering town would take way less room but that is a educated guess. I am not planning on building such a town and still what are the other parameters?

 

[Silly Bubbles]

• Cauldron penalties on how it counts research hurts everyone, it isn't targeting one group. If I want a certain benefit i have to research stuff I had ignored. Up to me to decide if it is worth it or not

How does it hurt everyone? I only benefit out of Cauldron. Yes, it does have negatives (what doesn't) but the benefits well and truly exceed the costs. I had 5 effects levelled up to 80 in first couple of weeks and I haven't even used up all my resources. I get two to four military effects every week lasting more than 9 hours either over 7% increase in health or 20% increase in attack each without using any spell fragments. It takes me half an hour to make a recipe (I do love playing with it) and it doesn't need any space. I think that a lot of players are missing out on Cauldron benefits.

 

[Mykan]

How does it hurt everyone? I only benefit out of Cauldron.

I was specifically referring to how research is counted and impacts what benefits are available. Using end tech players as an example it is the difference between having everything currently on offer in the cauldron available or a lot less to choose from all because optional techs were skipped. Similarly 2 people in the same chapter have different options based on their choice of optional techs despite been at the same place in the tech tree.

Reality is we have seen before when they counted optional techs for other parts of the game and it had a negative impact. Maybe in 2-3years time they will change it.

 

[Genefer]

I don’t see how it’s possible for us not to have a space advantage. Yes, we need lots of all those things but fighters still need to produce all of those too, plus all the military buildings and Fire Phoenix and expiring buildings and armories and more wonders, and extra workshops to support troop production, and residences to support those, and…the list goes on.

Residences are needed to provide population for Workshops, Factories, barracks, training ground, armories... needed to Produc Troops & Orcs and to produce coins to pay for - factory productions, upgrades, research, and to cater encounters.


Workshops are needed to produce supplies for - upgrades, research, factory productions, produce Orcs, train troops, and cater encounters.


Standard Factories are needed to produce Standard Goods to pay for - upgrades, research, Produce Sentient Goods, Produce Ascended Goods, and cater encounters.


Orcs are needed to pay for - upgrades, research, train troops, and to cater encounters.


Mana is needed to pay for - upgrades, research, and to cater encounters.


Divine Seeds are needed to pay for - upgrades, research, Sentient Production, and cater encounters.


Sentient Factories are needed to pay for - upgrades, research, and to cater encounters.


Every City needs to produce the various forms of currency - with the exception of Troops - to pay for research, upgrades, and goods production.


A Catering city needs to acquire/produce the same amount for research & upgrades, AND the cost to cater encounters.


The city that caters encounters requires more - factories, workshops, residences, mana culture, orc culture, seed culture....


The city that fights encounters - needs to produce supplies in excess of upgrade & research cost - to pay for Orc production & Troop Training


Two cities in the same chapter, with the same number of expansions, and completing the same number of Tournament & Spire Encounters - regardless of catering or fighting will not have a space advantage. The exception would result from the either player's success in acquiring high value mana/seed/orc culture in events,


As far as Ancient Wonders

38 Ancient Wonders
7 Troop Ancient Wonders
8 Hybrid Ancient Wonders
23 Material Resource (including Population & Culture) Ancient Wonders

Heroes’ Forge is a total waste of space when considered only for its orc production, and Dragon Abbey seems to be the same way with mana (for my city, at least. I realise this will be a very unpopular opinion, lol.) I may build the Pyramid or Simia to help with sentients but I haven’t unlocked those yet, so haven’t had to make that decision.

Heroes' Forge

I use both troops and resources for encounters, so I built the Forge for the troop benefit, and felt the same as far as its Orc production.

However, as I have increased the number of completed provinces, leveled my forge, and built the Pyramid of Purification the value of my forge has increased in value.

My Heroes' Forge
Improves my Heavy Melee troops.
Produces Orcs Currency
Contributes to Sentient Goods Supply
Decreasing Sentient Factory Productions - increasing my city's available seed supply
Allows me to acquire the quantity of both Seeds & Sentient required for research or upgrades quicker decreasing the loss to decay.
Decreases the demand for Standard Goods that I would have to produce and use for Sentient Factory productions.
Decreases the demand of Coins & Supplies needed to produce Standard Goods

And the value will increase with each completed province - until the map is exhausted.



The Dragon Abbey -

I use all my enchantments heavily, so I earn a lot of mana from my Enchantments - however because I actually use them, I have had to build the maze, in my current chapter, because otherwise the loss to decay is over the top. Today I have used 47 Enchantments - and gained 696,775 mana, but it will be subject to 5% decay beginning tonight.


With the Dragon Abbey every Enchantment in inventory is mana not subject to decay. Why put a mana/culture building in my city when I can acquire more mana by using 1 or 2 enchantments - when the mana is needed? Need a million mana for an upgrading - apply enchantments...

The Dragon Abbey reduces the number of mana/culture buildings necessary by both providing mana and decreasing the loss of mana to Decay.

And the value will increase with each completed province - until the map is exhausted.


Ancient Wonders are never a disadvantage - if used effectively and with purpose they increase available space - that is the ultimate purpose of Ancient Wonders - they increase city production allowing the acquisition/retention of all form of currency with fewer buildings.


In the last 23-hours I have purchased from the Wholesaler

T1: 1,133,440 units
T2: 751,520 units
T3: 505,120 units


Total Coin Cost: 193,200,000
Total Supply Cost: 107,640,000

How many Factories would I have to have in my city to produce over 2 million standard Goods in 23 hours?

How Many Magic Residences & Magic Workshops would I need to generate the coins and supplies I used to purchase over 2 million goods.

There is no possible way to build the number of buildings necessary for this level of production - not with every single available expansion -


With Ancient Wonders & Enchantments -
18 Magic Residences
8 Magic Workshops
Blooming Trader Guild
Sanctuary
Watchtower
Golden Abyss
Prosperity Towers
The Great Bell Spire
The Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood
Ensorcelled Endowments & Power of Provision Enchantments


Without the Dragon Abbey, Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood, Great Bell Spire, and Maze of Dark Matter - I would need far more mana culture buildings to acquire the equivalent.

Every Single Ancient Wonder adds to the city's seed supply - I do not have even one seed culture Building - other than evolves or sets - my city is not littered with festivals or Orchids ... I collect 120,000 seeds from my trader daily - with my level 35 Main Hall.


A city that uses troops for encounters will have far fewer armories with troop Ancient Wonders


lol Rambling

 

[Genefer]

Huh? I get that advanced scouts does this, but when squad size techs end up reducing the relative difficulty (e.g. medium reduced to easy) they can do this for already scouted provinces, even though the amount of enemies to fight and resources needed to cater are locked in once the scouting is complete.

I am not referring to already scouted provinces - I am referring to completing research then scouting -> then completing the encounters- green is cheaper than yellow.