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    Your Elvenar Team

Perhaps the Phoenix is superfluous

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
Yes, but cold hard reality will, when they have to lay down a whole day's production of Mana on just one encounter they will change their minds!
If I have to lay down an entire day of mana production in one encounter I am obviously not producing enough mana. No merc camp, no training grounds, no armories, no fire chicken, no bear, no orc strats, no VVs, no DAs, MMMs,UUUs, ELRs, no military wonders....I have plenty of room for mana and awsome mana producers.


So says the pure catering city clinging rigidly to my playstyle. The fire phoenix it utterly useless to me. Brown bear too.


Edit to add: I play exclusively on mobile. The additional losses from auto fight piss me off to the point of not wanting to bother with it.
 
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The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
If I have to lay down an entire day of mana production in one encounter I am obviously not producing enough mana. No merc camp, no training grounds, no armories, no fire chicken, no bear, no orc strats, no VVs, no DAs, MMMs,UUUs, ELRs, no military wonders....I have plenty of room for mana and awsome mana producers.


So says the pure catering city clinging rigidly to my playstyle. The fire phoenix it utterly useless to me. Brown bear too.


Edit to add: I play exclusively on mobile. The additional losses from auto fight piss me off to the point of not wanting to bother with it.
You will eventually reach a point in the late game where 100% catering the Spire is simply impossible, due to the exponential nature of the formula, combined with decaying resources.
Even if you had 0 AW's + every possible expansion, I still don't think it's possible to produce enough of the decaying crap, or the things like Orks to sustain negotiation only tactics...

My dad for example over-produces Mana in his cities, despite now being a mostly 100% fighter in the Spire, yet a couple bad encounters and he's suddenly blowing through 200k+ mana for just a couple of gates! (mainly on Lv3, where the 3-wave fights even with a host of buff buildings tends to come down entirely to being terrain screwed or not.)
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
You will eventually reach a point in the late game where 100% catering the Spire is simply impossible, due to the exponential nature of the formula, combined with decaying resources.
Possibly. I used minmax's calc to math my cities out. I can cater through Elementals after that my math gets muddled. At that point I might have to hybridize and fight.
 

crackie

Well-Known Member
So says the pure catering city clinging rigidly to my playstyle. The fire phoenix it utterly useless to me. Brown bear too.
You can meet your in-game goals playing your style though, which is impressive especially since you got stuck with scroll boost to boot. I am talking about the nutters that insists on only fighting or catering but isn’t making enough of troops or goods to play that way, and then complain they can’t get very far in the Spire or tourney. It’s like, okay…you insist on going in with one hand tied behind your back and then wonder why you got beat up, but still won’t use your other hand.

Here is a more neutral example…I had one guy who kept saying he kept running out of troops but he won’t feed his brown bear bc instead of building workshops, he burns his supply windfalls stash for daily hammer use…and then complains he never has enough hammers. “I keep running out of hammers, but I won’t build any workshops.” o_O
 

Gkyr

Active Member
It makes a huge difference for me. But it actually depends on the level to which it's evolved.
It is 10.
@crackie I should have been clear. I meant to direct that assumption at the OP. @Gkyr , have you compared losses with feeding verses not feeding?
Not on purpose. I still win, mostly (manual fighting). What gets my attention is when I lose a battle, this seldom happens when the chicken is fed. Then, in retrospect, I notice how fast I have been burning through troops. Oops.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Possibly. I used minmax's calc to math my cities out. I can cater through Elementals after that my math gets muddled. At that point I might have to hybridize and fight.
You better have insane Orks production by WE's...
Using tools to roughly plan things out is fine, but just enjoy the first time you get caught with 7-8 encounters in a row all demanding a limited and/or decaying resource.:p

The numbers can get stupid as well.
My Ch.9 city by the final 4 encounters of Lv2 can be asked for roughly 750-1k Orks per guess. Things tend to disappear in a real hurry if you end up needing 4 rounds and keep hitting the yellow, "try another" results.
 

Gkyr

Active Member
Spire.
I like the Casino aspect of it.
It turns me into a Gambler and, as such, I have a 'system' that serves me well. I like it.
I would rather Convince, therefore, than fight, even though my game is a military one.
But...
This game is a game of resource management. Resources are rate-limiting.
I used to use Convince>Fight when the multiple rounds were asymmetric for squads (i.e., later round full of counter-troops to what was needed in earlier round). But now my squads are powerful enough to be more flexible against the opposition.
So now I fight to conserve hard-to-procure resources as most players do (sentients for me).
But I generate a lot of Basics, Orcs, Mana and Seeds (for the needs of my manner of gaming) to permit me to Convince through the first two Spire levels and even into the third.
(but if the fight is a slam dunk I will take it).
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I love catering spire. I had a travel mastermind game when I was younger and have played variations of mastermind in video games for years (hacking terminals in fallout comes to mind) so I am pretty good at it.
Chances are even when I start fighting I will fight tournaments and cater the spire.
 

Darielle

Well-Known Member
It is 10.

Not on purpose. I still win, mostly (manual fighting). What gets my attention is when I lose a battle, this seldom happens when the chicken is fed. Then, in retrospect, I notice how fast I have been burning through troops. Oops.
I was just thinking, since it's at stage 10, you should be seeing a big difference. But then you answered that yourself when you said that losing a battle seldom happens when the chicken is fed. So I guess you are seeing a big difference after all, no?
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
If I have to lay down an entire day of mana production in one encounter I am obviously not producing enough mana. No merc camp, no training grounds, no armories, no fire chicken, no bear, no orc strats, no VVs, no DAs, MMMs,UUUs, ELRs, no military wonders....I have plenty of room for mana and awsome mana producers.


So says the pure catering city clinging rigidly to my playstyle. The fire phoenix it utterly useless to me. Brown bear too.


Edit to add: I play exclusively on mobile. The additional losses from auto fight piss me off to the point of not wanting to bother with it.
I am strictly auto fight, still fight most of Spire to the top every week and Tourney, closing on 6K a week tourney score.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I am strictly auto fight, still fight most of Spire to the top every week and Tourney, closing on 6K a week tourney score.
Sweet! You got me outscored! I have pretty much hit my max in my scroll boosted cities as they are. So they are both chaptering up and upgrading MHs. My crystal boosted city(lv 27 MH)can do more. So she is staying put in chapter 7 so I can find her limit. Next wonder in that city is a PT. It will let me drop to three workshops and put in another manufactory or two.

I know I could score higher at this point if I fought some but I am having fun pushing my little catering city!
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
Sweet! You got me outscored! I have pretty much hit my max in my scroll boosted cities as they are. So they are both chaptering up and upgrading MHs. My crystal boosted city(lv 27 MH)can do more. So she is staying put in chapter 7 so I can find her limit. Next wonder in that city is a PT. It will let me drop to three workshops and put in another manufactory or two.

I know I could score higher at this point if I fought some but I am having fun pushing my little catering city!
That's Great, I was just indicating what many others have said...Sooner than later catering cities realize that they can not continue with out adding fighting into the mix, please do continue as far as you can.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
That's Great, I was just indicating what many others have said...Sooner than later catering cities realize that they can not continue with out adding fighting into the mix, please do continue as far as you can.
I am truely beginning to doubt the veracity of those claims. Crazy wizard said it best....if I want to be competitive in the tournaments, I will have to stop catering exclusively. 5k is a great score, it is not a competitive score, I am not in the top 10 and never will be. I am strangely okay with that.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I am truely beginning to doubt the veracity of those claims. Crazy wizard said it best....if I want to be competitive in the tournaments, I will have to stop catering exclusively. 5k is a great score, it is not a competitive score, I am not in the top 10 and never will be. I am strangely okay with that.
Those claims are 100% accurate - pure catering hits a wall sooner or later that simply cannot be over come...
Regardless of chapter, a city can only produce X. If catering continuously costs beyond X, then sooner or later that city will run out of resources. :p

Hence why fighting on the C-map for example is basically impossible for beginning cities until later Ch.3/into Ch.4...
Beginning cities cannot produce enough troops because their upgrades grow far slower than the rate at which the enemies on the main map increase in size.
It isn't until later on that things even out, and then grow increasingly in the player's favor, to the point that by late/end game, even with extensive over-scouting, it will take ages before the enemy squad sizes catch up to the player's researched squad size & production abilities.

Yet again, there will eventually come a point that an end game city which scouts too much, will eventually scout itself into harder and harder fights. (...or more likely, they scout so far out that it takes a month or more to scout a single province at the current rate which INNO is releasing new chapters at this point?!:p)
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
Everybody hits the wall eventually. The thing is, it is in a different place depending on a players city build, chapter level and playstyle. Right now in chapter 7-8 I can top the spire, earn 5k weekly in the tournament, clear a few provinces per week and I have enough of a surplus that I can advance through chapters. As I advance I might have to drop the province expansion and the tournament score, I already advance through the chapters at a crawl (usually), topping the spire is the only thing I am unwilling to lose.

I dont have a problem with the fact that fighters can out perform me or that fighter/catering mix cities can out perform me or that manual fighters can dance around me every week several times before out performing me. I am okay with finding the limits of my city with my build. I am having fun and am playing games with my city build and I am currently still pushing the wall out.
 
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The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I would rather be strung up by my eyeballs while chewing out my toenails than spend a single second trying to suffer through this game's manual fighting system. :p

Hell, I'd rather endure repeatedly fighting fething Trolldorm in the Tower Hera in Zelda A Link to the Past!! (...that stupid google-eyed worm has resulted in many flying controllers over the years!)
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
Everybody hits the wall eventually. The thing is, it is in a different place depending on a players city build, chapter level and playstyle. Right now in chapter 7-8 I can top the spire, earn 5k weekly in the tournament, clear a few provinces per week and I have enough of a surplus that I can advance through chapters. As I advance I might have to drop the province expansion and the tournament score, I already advance through the chapters at a crawl (usually), topping the spire is the only thing I am unwilling to lose.

I dont have a problem with the fact that fighters can out perform me or that fighter/catering mix cities can out perform me or that manual fighters can dance around me every week several times before out performing me. I am okay with finding the limits of my city with my build. I am having fun and am playing games with my city build and I am currently still pushing the wall out.
A lot of it has to do with "beforehand knowledge", I did my homework on what to do and not do before starting to play and that gave me a headstart and a solid footing, allowing me to avoid the pitfalls. You sound like you did that too or spent a good amount of time after starting to inform yourself about the best way to prceed with your intended play style. What "most people CAN'T do" can be overcome by educating yourself about the system and how it works. I believe you have done that and are not seeing the usual downgrade because you have planned for it from the start or very soon after the start. BUT, eventually your progression in the game will make this extremely difficult. It will be very interesting if you, as a highly informed player, can work your way out of the box that INNO is trying to shove you in. I am personally very interested if you can "beat the system" with your dedication to informing yourself and your dedication to figuring out the "system"
 

Gkyr

Active Member
But then you answered that yourself when you said that losing a battle seldom happens when the chicken is fed. So I guess you are seeing a big difference after all, no?
Thanks for asking for a clarification.
Whether the chicken is fed or not, I lose a battle maybe twice per month. The defeat gets my attention and if the chicken is fasting, I take stock of my Time Boost X Supplies spending (then abashedly feed the bird). If the chicken has been fed, I note the squad ratio or troop sizes because that is my limit that I either do not attempt or figure out another offense that is new for me and more effective for that particular squad combo.
Either way, a defeat prompts a reevaluation.
Otherwise, like most players, I am waging Tourney battles in a habitual mode mindset.