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    Your Elvenar Team

Poaching of players should be banned

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Silly Bubbles

You cant pop them all
1) I want cookies. Lots of them delivered daily. After all, is it really too much to ask for a Big League player?
1) any cookies are given to @Queen of Snacks 1st
I'll send your application to those who wish to give you an unlimited number of tracking cookies. I'm sure they will find ways to "improve" the contract terms to give you even more surveillance.
Mr. AJ is gonna get traded for a bag of peanuts and an unknown player to be named later, or possibly be subject to arbitration where his FS will not hold back on how terrible of a teammate he is in order to save a few bucks (peanuts?) on the deal. All of this will be subject to blackout and does not violate antitrust laws.

(I know baseball is a dying sport so these are baseball jokes for those who can’t follow.)

All my snacks are up for grabs! :)

... except my secret stash :p

Oops, did I just say it out loud? There's no secret stash! :D

(munch, munch)
 

lauren1957

Member
Ummm... No.
Banning private communication with players outside of your FS is insane in a multiplayer game, and policing those messages for any sort of invitations is impossible.

Often players are mismatched in their fellowships with some players achieving far more than others.
If, for example, someone in a FS is getting thousands of points in the tournament and their FS isn't even getting 10 chests then much of that effort is wasted. Such a player might not be aware that other (much more suitable) FS are looking for a player just like them and so they languish in an under-achieving group and eventually quit the game.

There are only so many dedicated players in the game, having 10 in each fellowship makes no sense when the top rewards are only available to teams of 25. Gathering a group of like-minded players together and keeping them together is the Archmage's (and mage's) job, if they can't do that they should be fair to their members and merge with other fellowships who can. Keeping players from joining a better fellowship (or asking the developers to do that for you) is only self-serving and not what's best for those you call your friends.
Well, it has happened. We can no longer donate KP to anyone who is not in our FS. Nor can we navigate to another FS. Is this a bug, or permanent? Click where you used to in order to do this. Now all you get is redundant information and some that should be where it used to be (referencing working pop, etc.)
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
Well, it has happened. We can no longer donate KP to anyone who is not in our FS. Nor can we navigate to another FS. Is this a bug, or permanent? Click where you used to in order to do this. Now all you get is redundant information and some that should be where it used to be (referencing working pop, etc.)
I think you have a bug. I can still donate to people outside.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
Well, it has happened. We can no longer donate KP to anyone who is not in our FS. Nor can we navigate to another FS. Is this a bug, or permanent? Click where you used to in order to do this. Now all you get is redundant information and some that should be where it used to be (referencing working pop, etc.)
You may just be trying to donate to a person who has not donated to others. There's a limit on how much help you can receive before you have to start giving back. Other than that, anyone can donate to anyone else.
 

TomatoeHu

Sheets of Color
I would like to say that my group has everything to offer, but we dont. No one can realistically, entice and keep every player happy.

And as sad as i am that players leave, i don't feel abandoned, i recognize that they are advancing to a new team that will better suit their needs, interests and or strategy. This makes me happy for them and their renewed interest in the game!!!
I want that for every player, even my best! The way a player leaves speaks volumes. A polite goodbye is enough to know that you were friends and we all want our friends to be happy, no matter where that may be. You don't hold your friends back

I think part of the problem is, we can't rely on the game forums to recruit, because we don't have the entire player base up here, only a small representative of certain player types and experiences, and that's not good enough. How do you reach other players who don't want to join a forum, who may want to be the best at their city, and just need some help previously not available in their current fellowship? Why would anyone say that others don't deserve that experience, they belong only to one group until they lose interest and disappear? That's not fair! Players are not being given the entire picture of Elvenar in the first 5 chapters, info that is not available on the wiki or from players in game who may never play various strategies or offer different experiences. How can you blame someone for leaving if they are given only 5-95% of a jigsaw puzzle, sooner or later you give up or move on if you don't get the full picture or suddenly realize there is more to the picture you have.

I do recognize the hard work and endless personal time spent by all Archmages. There is nothing harder than finding 25 like minded players across multiple platforms and countries, through the internet, in a game with no chat features, and its devasting to keep needing to recruit but we all grow up, we all move on and whether that's up, down or sideways in this game, nothing is forever.

I don't want to go off topic, so here are a few with ways to address player poaching and decrease the need to privately message players which is what i think makes AM's take this far too personally, this isn't about the AM job or their performance review or their personality but a private message to a group member feels threatening. I put below some spoilers/ suggestions, and anyone wanting to run with/expand on, any idea below, can use these freely. i don't have enough time to do that today.

Where is the World Chat? Why cant we talk to all other players on our server in a server chat, keeps it public and monitored as well as informative and positive. All other popular MMOs have a world chat for players to discuss live, in game.

A big help would be if Inno removed more in-actives, more often, including Archmages, who disappear as inactive for a period of time locked up with all their players stuck in limbo within fellowships )
There should be a script that runs when an AM disappears, their team gets immediately released with a message like: your leader has gone on an extended vacation, wish them luck and in the meantime, please join an active fellowship

Or a way to pass rewards to our players that are not buildings, KP or spells > more like diamonds, or fellowship player points ( not player score related but viewable to show valued members they are valued ♥ )

How about some spire stats that don't disappear every week, so we know best who to approach? Very hard to find gold spire players or players interested in gold spire.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I would like to say that my group has everything to offer, but we dont. No one can realistically, entice and keep every player happy.

And as sad as i am that players leave, i don't feel abandoned, i recognize that they are advancing to a new team that will better suit their needs, interests and or strategy. This makes me happy for them and their renewed interest in the game!!!
I want that for every player, even my best! The way a player leaves speaks volumes. A polite goodbye is enough to know that you were friends and we all want our friends to be happy, no matter where that may be. You don't hold your friends back

I think part of the problem is, we can't rely on the game forums to recruit, because we don't have the entire player base up here, only a small representative of certain player types and experiences, and that's not good enough. How do you reach other players who don't want to join a forum, who may want to be the best at their city, and just need some help previously not available in their current fellowship? Why would anyone say that others don't deserve that experience, they belong only to one group until they lose interest and disappear? That's not fair! Players are not being given the entire picture of Elvenar in the first 5 chapters, info that is not available on the wiki or from players in game who may never play various strategies or offer different experiences. How can you blame someone for leaving if they are given only 5-95% of a jigsaw puzzle, sooner or later you give up or move on if you don't get the full picture or suddenly realize there is more to the picture you have.

I do recognize the hard work and endless personal time spent by all Archmages. There is nothing harder than finding 25 like minded players across multiple platforms and countries, through the internet, in a game with no chat features, and its devasting to keep needing to recruit but we all grow up, we all move on and whether that's up, down or sideways in this game, nothing is forever.

Love this ... so true. The only part I would change is the word "all" to "most" in: "I do recognize the hard work and endless personal time spent by all Archmages."

Most archmages are always seeking ways to make the fellowship fun and vibrant. They plan fun events. They're the team's best cheerleader. They do their best to match the top players in their group in tourney and spire (not that they can't have better players, but they have to put in the effort to come close). They try to take every fair trade possible from their members, whether they need the items or not, if the players need them (and not just rebalance). They contact players who are not playing and, if they don't respond with a good excuse, expel them and then work their butts off to find a new replacement, for the health of the group and to keep up scores. They don't leave dead weight in their fellowship just so they can appear full and stay lazy. And importantly, they have an overall idea of what kinds of players they should be attracting, given their fellowship, and then fill it with the kinds of players that will be an asset, not a detriment, to the overall direction of the group. They have to HAVE a direction for the group, if they want to be anything more than a casual fellowship (and if they want that, then they sure have no right to complain when their players want more and leave ... no matter who recruits them. A player should always feel good about the people they left, not uncomfortable for leaving and being made to feel like a heel.)

I've met archmages who do not do this hard work. They get lucky and get a few good players to join, and then think they should always stay. They expect these good players to carry the scores on tourney, spire, etc. They don't take fair trades they don't need, even when a player is desperate. They aren't keeping their players happy; they're just coming in a couple times a day, playing their game like they would if they weren't an AM, and expecting things to stay the same. They center the fellowship on what is convenient for them, not on what is best for the players.

I will never recruit from a fellowship where I see the AM is obviously trying, even if they are struggling and having a hard time gaining their footing. You can tell if they are trying by how long they leave their fellowship one-quarter full with live players and three-quarters full with people who haven't played in months. I don't normally simply go in and recruit from a fellowship that's in trouble. I put it on my radar and then go back a month later to see if things have improved. If they have, then that shows that the AM (or someone) is working to build that fellowship. I take them off my list and move on.

Importantly, I check out fellowships even when my group is full, just so that when I lose a player, I have my list ready and I can go in and recruit. If it is clear to me that nothing has improved since the last time I checked, then I invite their best player. I'm not doing anything wrong ... I am simply going in and doing the job that the AM has decided to abdicate ... I am supporting their player in a way that they do not.

I find it strange (or maybe not so strange) that the excellent AMs almost never complain about players leaving their group. It's not that players don't leave; it's just that AMs know that this is part of the job and that being an AM means you are SERVING your players ... not the other way around. By the time a player is seriously thinking about leaving a group ... it's time for them to do it. Any AM who convinces or pleads with a player to stay is not thinking of that player. No one should have to be convinced to stay in a fellowship that they've been in for months. If that's the case, they truly do not belong there. I WANT to open that slot so that I can get someone in who will love the group and bring energy and enthusiasm to the other players.

It's the AM who don't do "the hard work and endless personal time" who are always the ones complaining about players leaving. And sadly, they are always the ones who make their players feel terrible about leaving .... and once they finally do, they never look back. I thank the stars that I had such a wonderful AM. I left for 8 months, with her full blessing and encouragement, and came back when I realized how much I missed her and the group. If she had begged me to stay, I would have left by now, and I would never have returned, ever.
 

YarL

Member
Self serving?!!... what are you talking about. The players come to me to tell me about those stupid emails and what am I supposed to do. Just pretend nothing happened. It takes time to help those struggling players to meet their potential and learn how to grow stronger in their city. How can anyone that has a fellowship and has helped each player feel comfortable to be there just sit back and pretend this type of thing is ok. If you can care less about the player and just be in it for the points then please by all means carry on but, if my FS was so pitiful then why is it a constant target for these types of emails being sent to my top players. You have the email communication access and that is a great thing but, be respectful and use it responsibly. I don't understand why no one is even bothering with the fact that the player isn't even the one looking to leave it's others trying to get them to leave the problem here. I hope that when it happens to you in your fellowship you'll have a better understanding of the situation
I found that when I was Archmage of my fellowship, we had quite a few defections (via poaching). It was annoying to me at times. Someone else took over that position a couple years back and there has been no more defections. And I have been happier in the game.
 

Tuschunreal

Active Member
I am pretty new here...only been playing 10 months or so and on Forum for a few months. I took your post as a chance to exercise my new found research skills. Assuming I found your fellowship (GALADRIM GUILD RECRUITING), it shows 5 players have departed since late November AND 5 players joined for a wash. Those that left are 2 inactives, 2 went to the same 10 chest team and 1 to a 8.8 chest team a bit above your 7.3 chest average. Sorry in advance...I talk a lot.

One of the fellowships I become the AM for I am re-building. I removed inactive players AND sent a message to a couple players who left to ask what it was that had them leave (before I became AM). They shared that the fellowship (before I renamed it to Relax and Be Merry) was declining and they wanted to be growing and get 10 chests and be challenged in Spire. I was new so it was pretty easy to do some sole searching about the fellowship. I changed the overview, set some goals and went on a mission to find players. I must have looked at 200+ players in elvenstats and then contacted actives not in a fellowship as well as reached out to small fellowship AM’s about merging. We have grown from 12 players to 23/24 depending on the week. I set as goal to review and remove inactive players once a month or more often. We have stayed at 23/24 players and are on track for our first 10 chest push week.

Why share all this? That is just numbers and mechanics. As shared by others in several places in Forum, culture of a fellowship has to match with the players and leadership. I suggest you consider reaching out to the active players that have left and ask what was it about their goals and culture desires had them them leave. Ignor, how leaving came about because the fact is they left. I believe you can and should ask yourself what your fellowship culture is including what the teams desires are for culture as well as for tournament, spire and FA participation. Do they match your vision? Out of that you may find out what is going on and the fact that your best players are being ‘poached’ may not be relavent.

I can tell you that Relax and Be Merry is developing it’s culture. How do we become a 10 chest tournament team and be “Relax and Be Merry”? Do we have tournament minimums or do we create an environment that teammates want to contribute as best they can given the realities of real life and the 10 chests will come in due time. Spoiler alert we picked the latter a month ago. I am sure our ‘culture’ will continue to evolve and some of my good game friends will continue to move on for whatever reason they have. I expect I will continue to support them in their game journey and several of us message back and forth to check on each other.

Thank you for posting your frustration. It will help me when I run into the challenge (not aware of any poached players but I am sure it will happen). My hope is that each player that leaves does so with some knowledge of what they are looking for and does enough research that they have a shot at getting it in their next fellowship. Cheers...tusch
update...weeeehaaaa we made 10 chests.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I found that when I was Archmage of my fellowship, we had quite a few defections (via poaching). It was annoying to me at times. Someone else took over that position a couple years back and there has been no more defections. And I have been happier in the game.
You were wise enough to realize that being an AM was not the best fit for you. Many AMs are too possessive of their group to have the selflessness and wisdom to do that. Any AM who gets annoyed at either the player or the recruiter of the player who leaves the group is not looking in the right direction. They should either work on their skills for the benefit of the fellowship or step down and let someone else do it.

I wasn't the perfect AM when I started. I stumbled for the first couple months, because I was really upset by my former AM's illness and the suddenness by which I was made AM. I lost a couple of players early on who didn't like the fact that I was trying so hard to "fix" things too quickly; I wasn't the best communicator so they didn't understand why. Like someone who cleans house while another is away just to surprise them when they got back, I wanted to "fix" everything that the former AM and I had talked about changing, to make her proud and happy when she got out of the hospital (at that point I still had hopes that she would; she was young, so I thought she would beat it). I was nervous, sad, and far too rigid for fear of messing things up for her. I wasn't an AM ... I was a place holder, and a nervous one at that, so I sometimes wasn't as diplomatic as I should be when people messed up. I once told someone that I would demote her if she spent all my perk points again. It was rude, but I was just so worried that TMWC would return and find them all spent. Silly, I know, but I still hoped.

I learned to be a good AM because I worked on myself. Only after I realized no one was returning did I learn to slow down, plan, communicate, and figure out what direction to take the group. I replaced the players I lost with others who are fantastic, and regained all the ground that I lost in those first couple months and then some. It just takes a while to realize that the buck stops with YOU ... not with your players. If the fellowship is losing players, there has to be a reason, and it isn't recruiters. It's something internal, and usually it's only the AM who can fix that.

Anyway, good for you, Yarl. I'm glad you had the courage and selflessness to think of your group first.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
And as sad as i am that players leave, i don't feel abandoned, i recognize that they are advancing to a new team that will better suit their needs, interests and or strategy. This makes me happy for them and their renewed interest in the game!!!
I want that for every player, even my best! The way a player leaves speaks volumes. A polite goodbye is enough to know that you were friends and we all want our friends to be happy, no matter where that may be. You don't hold your friends back
^^This. A polite goodbye message goes a long way if you want to change fellowships. Or if you have stuff going on in real life and might be inactive for a long period of time. So you are withdrawing from the FS but might want to rejoin at a future date. What I **TRULY** hate is when a normally active member suddenly stops playing with no communication. Because then you really wonder if they are OK.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
^^This. A polite goodbye message goes a long way if you want to change fellowships. Or if you have stuff going on in real life and might be inactive for a long period of time. So you are withdrawing from the FS but might want to rejoin at a future date. What I **TRULY** hate is when a normally active member suddenly stops playing with no communication. Because then you really wonder if they are OK.

One thing I've did in the distant past was to collect "emergency" email addresses from my players. Hardly ever used them. One of the few times I did though, the reply was that the person had passed. I expressed our sorrow as the player was a great player and person, and informed others. It did a lot to help. Not sure though, if it's a good thing to have done as I've always felt a bit uneasy about intruding into a person's personal life. It's a game, yes, but they and I are real people playing and that means it's a relationship between two real people, not to avatars. We aren't just pixels on the page, we are real people who have chosen to make playing Elvenar a part of our daily real life. So I used the technique in the past, but haven't here.

AJ
 

Katwick

Cartographer
We aren't just pixels on the page, we are real people who have chosen to make playing Elvenar a part of our daily real life. So I used the technique in the past, but haven't here.
Folks can opt-in for promotional emails from Elvenar, so a similar communication from your Fellowship would fall in the same bucket. I'm NOT suggesting routine Fellowship emails, because we have Fellowship Chat for that (such as it is.}
 

Myne

Oh Wise One
You think that by letting others come into your fellowship with lies to get your players to leave is ok. Who told you that happy players don't leave. My FS is running just fine it would run better if others would stop poaching players that are already set up and offer those positions to new players and take the time to invest in them instead of looking for the easy route. This is why a lot of players don't bother to play in these apps. They always get smart asses to come in and bother them and when they find out the grass isn't greener on the other side are too stressed to even bother joining a fellowship all together. Have some ethics. If a player is in a fellowship go find someone that isn't is it so hard to have common courtesy or is that too much for a grown person to have

I hate to rain on your parade, but if those archmages in charge of MOST of the fellowships that are being invited would take the time to actually invest in their players instead of just starting a fellowship and sitting back to do nothing, perhaps they would be more likely to stay. It's well known that I recruit from "dead" fellowships. Dead fellowships are ones that are not progressing, full of inactive players, or otherwise look as if they are not taking care of their players. "Bothering them" is a relative term. Anyone has the option of deleting messages or simply not responding if they are not interested. On the whole, there are few high achievers who are independent players. Those you notice on the leader boards, mostly play rarely or not at all anymore.
I have never lied to someone I wanted to recruit, it serves no purpose in the long run and will work against the liar.
Perhaps you should look at your fellowship and what you are offering them to stay. Do you send tips and tricks for tourney weekly? Do you keep them updated on changes to the game as they come out? Do you keep them notified of upcoming events and how to prepare? Do you forward links to documents that will be helpful in those events? Do you actually talk to them, or even notice if they are struggling in the game?
I have plenty of ethics, along with the vast majority of those here on the forum.

I have had players leave my fellowship because they wanted to be more aggressive players than my fellowship is as a whole. I would never hold them back from meeting their needs. I have built a fellowship that communicate and helps each other. It has taken many hours of searching, recruiting, and communication to build it. If you would like to learn how to do it, I would be happy to coach you.
 
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