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    Your Elvenar Team

Poaching of players should be banned

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Smooper

Well-Known Member
I am in the middle of recruiting for 2 fellowships right now. One as an ambassador and one as the Arch-Mage. I freely admit I send recruitment letters to players in fellowships and as someone who spends a lot of time looking at fellowships in the game and through ElvenStats I am noticing an important fact. Most fellowships are dead or near dead and should combine with other fellowships.

Playing in a fellowship with 12 or fewer active players and receiving less than 6 chests or so is very common. I would say there are less than 100 fellowships on every server who should not be merged, folded or picked through to save the players in them. There are exceptions. Start ups and "retirement" fellowships being two types off the top of my head. If I had "god-mode" powers I would cut all the dead players out of these fellowships and construct fellowships with 20 or more active players. If you are in a little fellowship, get out, recruit or ask your Arch-Mage to do it because you are only hurting yourself.

I have been in one fellowship in Felyndral and one fellowship in Harandar. I made the changes is Felyndral once I became an arch-mage to make our fellowship viable. In Harandar, I asked the AM if I could recruit and have brought in a half dozen players and am slowly bringing up the participation of the fellowship just by bringing active players in. Any of you in half dead fellowships can do the same. I know this is not really the crowd since players who go to the forum already are active and most likely in active fellowships but if you are in a half dead fellowship you can do something about it and don't worry if you have to recruit from other half-dead fellowships, you are making the game better by making your fellowship better.

Thoughts...?
 

Yavimaya

Scroll-Keeper
I am in the middle of recruiting for 2 fellowships right now. One as an ambassador and one as the Arch-Mage. I freely admit I send recruitment letters to players in fellowships and as someone who spends a lot of time looking at fellowships in the game and through ElvenStats I am noticing an important fact. Most fellowships are dead or near dead and should combine with other fellowships.

Playing in a fellowship with 12 or fewer active players and receiving less than 6 chests or so is very common. I would say there are less than 100 fellowships on every server who should not be merged, folded or picked through to save the players in them. There are exceptions. Start ups and "retirement" fellowships being two types off the top of my head. If I had "god-mode" powers I would cut all the dead players out of these fellowships and construct fellowships with 20 or more active players. If you are in a little fellowship, get out, recruit or ask your Arch-Mage to do it because you are only hurting yourself.

I have been in one fellowship in Felyndral and one fellowship in Harandar. I made the changes is Felyndral once I became an arch-mage to make our fellowship viable. In Harandar, I asked the AM if I could recruit and have brought in a half dozen players and am slowly bringing up the participation of the fellowship just by bringing active players in. Any of you in half dead fellowships can do the same. I know this is not really the crowd since players who go to the forum already are active and most likely in active fellowships but if you are in a half dead fellowship you can do something about it and don't worry if you have to recruit from other half-dead fellowships, you are making the game better by making your fellowship better.

Thoughts...?
I see nothing wrong with this as long as if they say no thanks you leave it. Which I'm sure you probably do like most. I know a lot of people recruit this way and feel the way you do!
 

Deleted User - 849411552

Guest
I don't think we're hung up at all on the specific word. The OP (regardless of the particular term chosen) is making a claim to ownership of the members of their fellowship. They explicitly said they want anyone who contacts members of their group for recruiting to be banned for doing so. They don't have the right, or the ability to enforce, any such claim. They don't have any right control who contacts anyone in their fellowship. They don't have any right to stop someone from trying to lure their members away. They don't have any right to come here and try to convince the rest of us that we should support the development team implementing tools or rules to give them those rights. The idea is self centered and the sort of dangerous thinking which leads to Fellowships imploding.

I don't think banning is viable, nor do I think there is any chance that Inno would try to implement such a controversial and labour intensive policy. But I don't think that expressing this idea is contrary to forum rules, nor do I think the OP should be prevented from expressing her frustration here.

Unless someone is engaging in hate speech or personal attacks, I don't see what harm there is in freely presenting ideas in these forums, whether or not we agree with them. And indeed, her initial post has engaged a lot of folks in considering various recruitment methodologies for at least 12 pages now, and I know that I for one have learned something from it.

In her third post, the OP said
Players aren't owed by any fellowship or are they forced to stay. But let that be the players choice. They have the right to leave at any time THEY CHOOSE.!!
so I don't think she feels that she owns anybody. From what she says, she does find unsolicited recruitment frustrating and unethical, and the fact that members of her fellowship are reporting these PMs to her suggests to me that at least some of her members are upset, annoyed or disquieted by these communications also.

I know that in our fellowship, some members have been upset by unsolicited invitations. In the past I have suggested that they just take it as a compliment. But now that I have learned from this thread how easy it is to personally ban any unwanted PM source, I posted a general message to the fellowship on how to prevent further communications from any person if they are uncomfortable with their messages.

It also occurs to me that it is somewhat disingenuous to claim that a happy or fulfilled member cannot be wooed away into another fellowship with misleading or false promises and expectations. I know that over my lifetime I have certainly been led astray by false advertising or deceptive behaviour, even though I consider that I have a suspicious nature.

In Elvenar, there is typically nothing to stop you from reversing your decision if you do find you have been recruited into a bad situation. Except that once you are in a fellowship, there tends to be a social inertia that prevents many people from making rapid changes. And strangely enough, I have even seen cult-like behaviour in one seemingly successful fellowship I can think of, despite the fact that the cult leader is abusive to his members, to the point that one of them said to me, "I just go wherever he goes".

This is an extreme example, but as many folks have mentioned we don't necessarily act as free agents once we join a group, sometimes to our own detriment.

I don't know all the details about the OP's fellowship, but is does seem that there has been a continuing drain in their membership. It is easy to say that this is due to poor leadership. But is does make me wonder about how often the herd mentality can work the other way. Members see other people leaving, so they decide to follow - and indeed perhaps they want to keep in touch with those who are their friends.

On the whole I am encouraged and happy with the community environment in Elevenar. It is certainly the most positive online gaming experience that I have found. But it does sadden me that some folks in the Elvenar gaming world actually do seem to treat other people like commodities. This applies not only to those who would try to hang on to members when it might be in their better interest to leave, but to those who solicit others to join them based on stats or reputation without being completely honest about the expectations and other environmental factors in the proposed destination fellowship.
 
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Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I don't think banning is viable, nor do I think there is any chance that Inno would try to implement such a controversial and labour intensive policy. But I don't think that expressing this idea is contrary to forum rules, nor do I think the OP should be prevented from expressing her frustration here.
Nobody suggested it was against the rules. I suggested it's a selfish request.
 

Deleted User - 849411552

Guest
Unfortunately your words said more than that to me ("They don't have any right to come here and try to convince the rest of us that..."), but I am glad to hear that was not your intent.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
It also occurs to me that it is somewhat disingenuous to claim that a happy or fulfilled member cannot be wooed away into another fellowship with misleading or false promises and expectations. I know that over my lifetime I have certainly been led astray by false advertising or deceptive behaviour, even though I consider that I have a suspicious nature.
The key words in your post are "false promises." Anyone who makes false promises is a jerk, period. I think that most of the recruiters out there would never do that. Marilyn has yet to come back and tell us exactly what false promises were made. If she would do that, then we can sympathize with her on that.

We could also sympathize with her frustration at "multiple" attempts by the same fellowship ... depending upon what that means. Two attempts 8 or 10 months apart are not "multiple." A message that receives a "no" (or no answer) followed by another one a few days later saying "aw pretty please with sugar on top" would be "multiple. A message that receives a "hmm, maybe" and gets a followup a few days later is not "multiple." Depends on what she meant by multiple. I'm still wondering how she managed to get that other AM to tell her that she sent out 110 messages to players ... including multiples to her fellowship. That just boggles the mind because I can't imagine anyone wanting to do the work of recruiting 110 players in the same short time period for one or two slots. It doesn't make sense to me, but if she explained it, it might. (I'd still think it was nuts, but I might understand it, at least.)

But one thing I might add ... people who are lured by "false promises" do not stay with liars. If they were indeed happy where they were, they may return. If they weren't, they'll move on to some other fellowship. Liars never keep players for long. JMHO.
 

Deleted User - 849411552

Guest
Yes, I quite agree. And in my optimism I do hope that liars and manipulators will not win out in the end.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Unfortunately your words said more than that to me ("They don't have any right to come here and try to convince the rest of us that..."), but I am glad to hear that was not your intent.
I accept my error of semantic ambiguity. I think it is wrong of you to try to convince other players that sending a message with attempts to "poach" players should be a bannable offence, but there is no rule preventing you from doing it.
Yes, I quite agree. And in my optimism I do hope that liars and manipulators will not win out in the end.
I think we all hope that.
 

muffy.

Chef - Scroll-Keeper - Chandelier Swinger - EAA
I’ve been trying to poach and egg forever and it fails every time. Wouldn’t dream of doin that to a player !

But all kidding aside, Inno has very few rules for fellowships if any, let’s keep it that way. There’s no way on gods green earth they would ban a player for asking another to leave their fellowship and join yours .
Run your fellowships in such a fashion that they wouldn’t want to leave and if they do more power to them . In the end if a player is gonna jump from one FS to another why would you even want them. Players have a right to go where they want when they want and how they want, you don’t own them. The only control you have is how your FS is run.
In the 8 years I’ve been here it has happened to me one time. I wrote the messenger back and informed them if that’s how they were going to recruit then I’d do the same and offer 1k diamonds to their players to join. I let them know you could recruit in the Forum. They were unaware of this and they were sorry.
Funny thing was 2 months later the player they were trying to get did leave my FS. My FS doesn’t have a revolving door, you leave , the door is closed.
As of today , that player has returned but under a different name and that’s fine by me.
There’s no reason to get bent out of shape and all upset because there’s plenty of players out there needing a home. There’s plenty of players wanting to have fun instead of trying to be number 1… it’s just a number and has no other meaning then that.
Don’t take the fun out of the game because you can’t get what you want. The contents of this whole post is exhausting and causing nothing but drama, …save it for Mama , Juuls that is. ;)
 

Deleted User - 849411552

Guest
I accept my error of semantic ambiguity. I think it is wrong of you to try to convince other players that sending a message with attempts to "poach" players should be a bannable offence, but there is no rule preventing you from doing it.
Just for the record, I do not think that attempts to poach players should be a bannable offence, meaning that the person poaching be expelled from the game. If the person receiving a recruiting message chooses to block further communications, that's up to them.
 
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Deleted User - 849411552

Guest
In the 8 years I’ve been here it has happened to me one time. I wrote the messenger back and informed them if that’s how they were going to recruit then I’d do the same and offer 1k diamonds to their players to join.
This is hilarious! :D
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Just for the record, I do not think that attempts to poach players should be a bannable offence, meaning that the person poaching be expelled from the game. If the person receiving a recruiting message chooses to block further communications, that's up to them.
But that's what is in the feature suggestion which people are arguing for. If it gets a poll attached, then that is what people will be voting for, not what they think it should be.
I honestly think that private email solicitation of players that are already in an existing fellowship should not be accepted and any player that does this should be banned.
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Deleted User - 849411552

Guest
I think its pretty clear from this thread that such a poll would fail. I don't recall anyone besides the OP suggesting that banning a player from the game was a good idea. Several other people were against "poaching", but none of them were suggesting that expelling a player was a good or workable remedy.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
I’ve been trying to poach and egg forever and it fails every time.
I've seen a trick....
Use a serving spoon that can hold all of 1 egg.
Into simmering water, carefully put egg in.....
seems better than cracking an egg over the water,
as it stays together better while cooking.

Ya got any good tips for simple non instant rice ??
 

free-spirit

Well-Known Member
And I am sure you know some people to whom every game is a competition and they MUST win, even if it is something that does not really work that way. So as long as this game has a 1st place for highest individual ranking points or highest fellowship ranking points or the most tournament points, there will be players who have to be in that #1 spot, and if they are an Archmage, they will do whatever it takes to get the highest ranking people into their fellowship. And then there are the ones who MUST be First in all the FAs or the highest scoring in the Spire, and those AMs will go after the players who will help with that.
This is offensive to the top players and to most of the top Fellowships. They're the least likely to need to recruit from other Fellowships. I'm in contact with the AMs from a lot of the top FS in F and they just don't need to. We do jokingly try to poach each other. Only one top FS tries to take players from other FS, but we consider it a compliment and move on.

Success draws successful people. You seem bitter about people that play for rank. Some people find being competitive is a fun part of the game. That doesn't mean they must be #1 at all costs, it means they enjoy the competition.
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
@free-spirit That is the attitude toward high rankings throughout the Forum :( The irony of this conversation is that apparently most have no idea how many players ask to join top Fellowships and are probably often not trueful when they leave their existing Fellowship. I'm thinking that once they get a positive response from the top Fellowship they want to join some players probably say they were invited so they don't hurt the feelings of their existing Fellowship as much.
 

Cabernay

Member
I will fully defend the right for players to give other players options and choices in the game. As has been said before, Archmages do not own their members. They can only control their rules within their fellowship. They don’t even own their own fellowship. Soon as they are inactive for a month, the fellowship is up for grabs.

My sister, one of my higher ranked members, is messaged now and then. Believe me when I tell you… she lets me know every time. Lol ... If they want to go, let them go and be nice about it. Instead of getting mad, think about why they left. Think about what can change so that more members don't follow. I have not read all 12 pages of comments, this has to have been said more than once.

There is a sort of revolving door in my fellowship. Members tend to have more loyalty after they leave for greener pastures and then come back.

I have no problem with messaging other players if I need to. When you are an Archmage, you have to understand, you also make enemies doing that. Pick and choose your poisons.
 

muffy.

Chef - Scroll-Keeper - Chandelier Swinger - EAA
I've seen a trick....
Use a serving spoon that can hold all of 1 egg.
Into simmering water, carefully put egg in.....
seems better than cracking an egg over the water,
as it stays together better while cooking.

Ya got any good tips for simple non instant rice ??
Thanks !! Im gonna try this @BrinDarby … it’s frustrating that i can’t get it to work :D I think maybe i let the water boil to much , so I’ll try the simmer . As for rice , it makes me even more mad .. I stick to uncle bens instant:)
 

MaidenFair

Chef - Head Philologist
Ya got any good tips for simple non instant rice ??
Also, @muffy. : I do! Rice is easy. :D Measure out twice as much water as rice. 1 cup of rice is a good serving size for 4 people (it doubles in volume when cooked), so let’s say 2 cups of water. Put the water and the rice on the stove in a saucepan, with a lid. Turn the heat up high to bring it to a boil (but pay close attention because when it’s covered it’s about 2 seconds from starting to boil to overflowing! If it starts to overflow, just pick up the lid and it’ll settle down). As soon as it comes to a boil, turn the burner all the way down to the lowest heat; it will continue to simmer. Now just set a timer for 20 minutes* and walk away. It doesn’t have to be watched at this stage. When the timer goes off, check that it’s done by taking a fork and gently lifting/pulling aside some rice until you can see the bottom of the pan: there shouldn’t be any water left standing, just fluffy rice all the way down. You’re done! Turn off the burner and serve.

*I don’t know if the time on rice is affected by high altitude. 20m is how long it takes here, but you might be well served by setting the timer for something shorter, say 10-12m, the first time and check it every few minutes from there, just to make sure it doesn’t boil off sooner at lower altitudes. Also, times and methods may vary with an electric range since those are much slower to change temperature than a gas range, which is what I have. :)
 
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