DeletedUser3122
Guest
I am and I'll tell you why. I'm tired of people starting the game and abandoning their cities due to frustration! I want a lot of good neighbors and especially fellowship members!
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Your Elvenar Team
Poll: Set Buildings
- Thread starter Pheryll
- Start date
I am and I'll tell you why. I'm tired of people starting the game and abandoning their cities due to frustration! I want a lot of good neighbors and especially fellowship members!
DeletedUser9601
Guest
That was happening in droves long before events were even a thing. I get wanting to make starting easier, and they have!
If you log in daily during the event, and do just the daily quest, you're going to have well over 1,000 splinters. That's 3+ daily prizes, plus a host of other good stuff. The complaint I see is "I'm stuck on quest X," and usually quest X is a decent way through the quest line.
Anyone who starts a game and is relatively new, and then gets frustrated and quits because they can't complete 100% of something, probably is quitting anyways, when some other roadblock inevitably gets in the way.
DeletedUser12171
Guest
Hoo boy. Back to the "difficult EVENTS make newbies quit" argument again. Will this ever end? What if I started a city when no event is happening? I guess that guarantees I won't quit. Perhaps devs should let only Dwarves+ players participate in events so that new players can focus on growing without the hardship of completing a series of torturous quests.
DeletedUser17667
Guest
And then there would be crying about how unfair that is to new players. Devs can't win, no matter what they do.
DeletedUser17455
Guest
@Tedious I want to address the space thing. I think you're probably right with regards to older sets, but remember that goods production from event buildings recently received a boost. My woodelvenstock set is probably "too big" and I should delete it, but man oh man this set is killa. Consider:
First, we have to define "big". If you want to know whether a building is "big" or not, you have to work out its value per square, right? For example, imagine Inno Games goes crazy and releases a 10 x 10 God Building that produced enough goods, supplies, pop, and troupes that I just didn't need to build any other buildings at all... would you say it was "too big" to fit into a chapter 3 city?
Any chapter 3 player with access to that building would just bulldoze everything to make room for it. It doesn't make sense to just say "but it is 100 squares! Where will it go!?" You have to think about what each of those squares is contributing, compared to other buildings in your city. A building is "big" if it doesn't fit in your city, and whether a building fits in or not isn't based on its size in tiles.
Definition: a building is not "big" if, when you add it to your city, you can remove something else of equal or smaller size to make room for it without reducing your city's production in any way.
Example: an Ancient Grounds from chapter 6 is 21 tiles and produces 1800. That's 85 culture per tile. If I only have event culture buildings and a try removing 21 tiles of culture to make room, I will lose culture. So the Ancient Grounds is "big" (that's not to say there are not times when you would build it anyway).
Example: I remove a residence and a culture building to make room for a culture/population building I got in an event. If I end up with less population or less culture than I started with, then that was a "big" building.
( edit: so you see, size _doesn't_matter! It's the way you use it ^o^// )
The question: Is a day set "big" for a chapter 3 player, as you suggested?
The day set produces tier 1 goods, so lets consider the per square production and compare it to the per square production of a chapter 3 manufactory.
Manufactory
First we calculate the production and footprint of a chapter 3 manufactory. To do this we have to consider that a manufactory requires roads, population, and culture.
A fully upgraded chapter 3 manufactory (level 8) is 3 x 3 and is typically attached to 3 road tiles. That's 12 tiles. It requires 190 population and 62 culture.
A fully upgraded middle-of-chapter-3 residence (level 15) is 4 x 3 and typically requires 3 road tiles. It produces 560 population and requires 158 culture. That's 560 / 16 = 35 pop / tile and it requires 1 culture / tile.
Lord of the Legend, a typical middle of chapter 3 culture building, is 2x1 and produces 85 culture, which is ~ 45 / tile
So each manufactory, in addition to its 12 tiles, requires 190 / 35 = 5.5 tiles worth of residence to support it. In addition, manufactory and residence require a total of 62 + 5 = 67. The manufactory's road tiles are cobbled road and produce 20 culture each. 5.5 squares of residence required ~ 2 road tiles as well, so the culture cost is covered by the roads.
Therefor, a chapter 3 manufactory requires roughly 18 tiles.
Now we calculate it's production per tile per 24 hours, so that we can easily compare it to the day set.
Such a manufactory produces around 50 goods / 3 hours and 100 goods / 9 hours. Supposing a player makes four 3 hour collections per day and one 9 hour collection over night (which is what I do), then their manufactories produce around 300 / 24 hours.
Thus the manufactory, which takes up 18 tiles, produces roughly 300 / 18 = 17 goods per tile / 24 hours.
The Day Set (Set 1)
Now consider the day set. It requires 1 road tile and no population, and it produces culture. Suppose we have this set up:
Where E is Temple Entrance, H is Harvest Storage, S is the Sanctuary itself, and M is the Moon Temple Complex. Not that there is _no_ Sun Temple Complex and we have two Entrances (one is the exit ^o^// this is the layout I'm using).
The Harvest Storage, Sanctuary, and one of the Entrances have three links. The Moon Temple Complex also has 3 links but we will set that aside for now.
The entire set is 27 tiles. It's goods production, counting the links, is as follows:
Marble - 2490
Steel - 2460
Wood - 2120
That's a total of 7070 goods per 24 hours, or 7070 / 27 = 261 goods per tile / 24 hours. A manufactory, if you recall, produces 17 goods per 24 hours per tile.
Conclusion
The Day Set produces roughly 15 times as many goods per tile as a manufactory, once population, culture and roads are accounted for. Considering that it is only the size of 2 manufactories (again, once we have considered population, roads, etc), I think it is safe to say that this is a "small" building which would fit nicely into any chapter 3 city.
Because like, you'd be a fool not to bulldoze some buildings.
P.S. In addition! The day set also produces 1152 culture, which is 42 per square _almost_ as good as typical culture buildings for that chapter.
And the day set produces ~2000 supplies per 24 hours, which is 74 per 24 hours per tile. Now, I'm not going to do the breakdown of like I did above for a workshop because I think I've already made my point.
I think that basically any chapter 3 player who has access to a day set should bulldoze a couple manufactories and use this instead. My feeling is that this building is not "big" (in fact, it might even be like, ridiculously small).
So yeah I just don't see the "it is too big argument" as making sense. It is only "big" in the naive sense, in the same sense that the 10 x 10 god building is "big".
---
Caveats!
Don't listen to people on the internet. If you read this, you should feel empowered to do the same kinds of maths and observations to find your own results. You should compare your results to mine and look for discrepancies. You should try to see where I have made an unstated assumption.
Furthermore: I am just a lowly dwarves player, so my life is all about having enough room for my guest race, doing well in tournaments, and all that. I care about my rate of growth, how fast mya ranking is increasing, but I don't actually care about my ranking. Someone already pointed out elsewhere that the above calculus doesn't work when you take into account that the set building does not produce ranking points. I totally agree! A chapter 3 player doesn't care about ranking points.
First, we have to define "big". If you want to know whether a building is "big" or not, you have to work out its value per square, right? For example, imagine Inno Games goes crazy and releases a 10 x 10 God Building that produced enough goods, supplies, pop, and troupes that I just didn't need to build any other buildings at all... would you say it was "too big" to fit into a chapter 3 city?
Any chapter 3 player with access to that building would just bulldoze everything to make room for it. It doesn't make sense to just say "but it is 100 squares! Where will it go!?" You have to think about what each of those squares is contributing, compared to other buildings in your city. A building is "big" if it doesn't fit in your city, and whether a building fits in or not isn't based on its size in tiles.
Definition: a building is not "big" if, when you add it to your city, you can remove something else of equal or smaller size to make room for it without reducing your city's production in any way.
Example: an Ancient Grounds from chapter 6 is 21 tiles and produces 1800. That's 85 culture per tile. If I only have event culture buildings and a try removing 21 tiles of culture to make room, I will lose culture. So the Ancient Grounds is "big" (that's not to say there are not times when you would build it anyway).
Example: I remove a residence and a culture building to make room for a culture/population building I got in an event. If I end up with less population or less culture than I started with, then that was a "big" building.
( edit: so you see, size _doesn't_matter! It's the way you use it ^o^// )
The question: Is a day set "big" for a chapter 3 player, as you suggested?
The day set produces tier 1 goods, so lets consider the per square production and compare it to the per square production of a chapter 3 manufactory.
Manufactory
First we calculate the production and footprint of a chapter 3 manufactory. To do this we have to consider that a manufactory requires roads, population, and culture.
A fully upgraded chapter 3 manufactory (level 8) is 3 x 3 and is typically attached to 3 road tiles. That's 12 tiles. It requires 190 population and 62 culture.
A fully upgraded middle-of-chapter-3 residence (level 15) is 4 x 3 and typically requires 3 road tiles. It produces 560 population and requires 158 culture. That's 560 / 16 = 35 pop / tile and it requires 1 culture / tile.
Lord of the Legend, a typical middle of chapter 3 culture building, is 2x1 and produces 85 culture, which is ~ 45 / tile
So each manufactory, in addition to its 12 tiles, requires 190 / 35 = 5.5 tiles worth of residence to support it. In addition, manufactory and residence require a total of 62 + 5 = 67. The manufactory's road tiles are cobbled road and produce 20 culture each. 5.5 squares of residence required ~ 2 road tiles as well, so the culture cost is covered by the roads.
Therefor, a chapter 3 manufactory requires roughly 18 tiles.
Now we calculate it's production per tile per 24 hours, so that we can easily compare it to the day set.
Such a manufactory produces around 50 goods / 3 hours and 100 goods / 9 hours. Supposing a player makes four 3 hour collections per day and one 9 hour collection over night (which is what I do), then their manufactories produce around 300 / 24 hours.
Thus the manufactory, which takes up 18 tiles, produces roughly 300 / 18 = 17 goods per tile / 24 hours.
The Day Set (Set 1)
Now consider the day set. It requires 1 road tile and no population, and it produces culture. Suppose we have this set up:
Code:
EEE
HHHM
HHHM
SSSM
SSSM
SSSM
EEEMWhere E is Temple Entrance, H is Harvest Storage, S is the Sanctuary itself, and M is the Moon Temple Complex. Not that there is _no_ Sun Temple Complex and we have two Entrances (one is the exit ^o^// this is the layout I'm using).
The Harvest Storage, Sanctuary, and one of the Entrances have three links. The Moon Temple Complex also has 3 links but we will set that aside for now.
The entire set is 27 tiles. It's goods production, counting the links, is as follows:
Marble - 2490
Steel - 2460
Wood - 2120
That's a total of 7070 goods per 24 hours, or 7070 / 27 = 261 goods per tile / 24 hours. A manufactory, if you recall, produces 17 goods per 24 hours per tile.
Conclusion
The Day Set produces roughly 15 times as many goods per tile as a manufactory, once population, culture and roads are accounted for. Considering that it is only the size of 2 manufactories (again, once we have considered population, roads, etc), I think it is safe to say that this is a "small" building which would fit nicely into any chapter 3 city.
Because like, you'd be a fool not to bulldoze some buildings.
P.S. In addition! The day set also produces 1152 culture, which is 42 per square _almost_ as good as typical culture buildings for that chapter.
And the day set produces ~2000 supplies per 24 hours, which is 74 per 24 hours per tile. Now, I'm not going to do the breakdown of like I did above for a workshop because I think I've already made my point.
I think that basically any chapter 3 player who has access to a day set should bulldoze a couple manufactories and use this instead. My feeling is that this building is not "big" (in fact, it might even be like, ridiculously small).
So yeah I just don't see the "it is too big argument" as making sense. It is only "big" in the naive sense, in the same sense that the 10 x 10 god building is "big".
---
Caveats!
Don't listen to people on the internet. If you read this, you should feel empowered to do the same kinds of maths and observations to find your own results. You should compare your results to mine and look for discrepancies. You should try to see where I have made an unstated assumption.
Furthermore: I am just a lowly dwarves player, so my life is all about having enough room for my guest race, doing well in tournaments, and all that. I care about my rate of growth, how fast mya ranking is increasing, but I don't actually care about my ranking. Someone already pointed out elsewhere that the above calculus doesn't work when you take into account that the set building does not produce ranking points. I totally agree! A chapter 3 player doesn't care about ranking points.
DeletedUser17667
Guest
DeletedUser9601
Guest
@Zeigfreid
Oh I agree 100% that the sets are much nicer now. And the footprint of just the set isn't that big. I was more coming at the "sets as too big" in the context of some of the other forum threads about whether its possible (or reasonable) to assume a new player can complete ALL the sequential quests.
I'm saying, if you complete the mainline quest, you would easily get all of the Day Set (assuming reasonable luck) and probably 5-6 other daily buildings. Unless you got the 1x1 shrines, or got instants, you might be looking at 4-5 expansions worth of space from the event (because those other daily buildings are going to average 9-10 squares each). If I were in Chapter 3, I'd just aim for as much of the Day Set as I could get, and if I got stuck at some quest for 32 relics or something, I wouldn't be too worried.
Assuming in an early chapter you did the whole questline and spent all your splinters on the Day Set and useful buildings, I do think chapter 1, 2 or 3, you really don't have that much space. Now, it might be interesting to go "no manufactories" and rely solely on event sets, but I think that's risky for a couple reasons.
1. Reasonably active players aren't in each of the early chapters for 3 months (avg span between events), so while the Harvest Set is super-efficient for your current chapter, I haven't done the math on how efficient it stays 1, 2 or 3 chapters behind. Probably still a pretty good use of space, though.
2. Assuming you progress at a reasonable pace, you now need to upgrade your Harvest Set with the Winter Set, or at least hope the Winter Set provides comparable goods. If you're in the early chapters, there's a pretty high likelihood of that. But there's no guarantee. And if you're away for an extended period and miss a chunk of the Winter Event, you can be in a tough spot.
3. You're just generally expecting a lot of game knowledge/planning out of a likely new player. I'm now intrigued
I don't disagree that the Day Set isn't superb for early players. But if those players say only got Cornucopia, Night Complex and Day Complex (which isn't very challenging to do), and no other daily buildings, they'd be in great shape nonetheless.
Oh I agree 100% that the sets are much nicer now. And the footprint of just the set isn't that big. I was more coming at the "sets as too big" in the context of some of the other forum threads about whether its possible (or reasonable) to assume a new player can complete ALL the sequential quests.
I'm saying, if you complete the mainline quest, you would easily get all of the Day Set (assuming reasonable luck) and probably 5-6 other daily buildings. Unless you got the 1x1 shrines, or got instants, you might be looking at 4-5 expansions worth of space from the event (because those other daily buildings are going to average 9-10 squares each). If I were in Chapter 3, I'd just aim for as much of the Day Set as I could get, and if I got stuck at some quest for 32 relics or something, I wouldn't be too worried.
Assuming in an early chapter you did the whole questline and spent all your splinters on the Day Set and useful buildings, I do think chapter 1, 2 or 3, you really don't have that much space. Now, it might be interesting to go "no manufactories" and rely solely on event sets, but I think that's risky for a couple reasons.
1. Reasonably active players aren't in each of the early chapters for 3 months (avg span between events), so while the Harvest Set is super-efficient for your current chapter, I haven't done the math on how efficient it stays 1, 2 or 3 chapters behind. Probably still a pretty good use of space, though.
2. Assuming you progress at a reasonable pace, you now need to upgrade your Harvest Set with the Winter Set, or at least hope the Winter Set provides comparable goods. If you're in the early chapters, there's a pretty high likelihood of that. But there's no guarantee. And if you're away for an extended period and miss a chunk of the Winter Event, you can be in a tough spot.
3. You're just generally expecting a lot of game knowledge/planning out of a likely new player. I'm now intrigued
I don't disagree that the Day Set isn't superb for early players. But if those players say only got Cornucopia, Night Complex and Day Complex (which isn't very challenging to do), and no other daily buildings, they'd be in great shape nonetheless.
DeletedUser17455
Guest
@Tedious all good points!
1. Yeah I think it would be a risk for a chapter 3 player to bulldoze all their manufactories, but they could use the opportunity to get rid of their non-boosted tier 1 manufactories for example. Those tend to go away after a few chapters, once the player is in a fellowship.
2. This is true! We shouldn't rely too heavily on these sets because there is no guarantee we can keep them up.
3. The meta! You're right that I am imagining an "idealized player", and realistically newer players aren't going to have everything figured out. That's probably why we are hearing that new players are finding the events difficult: they might not understand the game yet. I guess I'm more speaking to folks who can give new players advice on how to advance.
After finishing my second big event, Woodelvenstock, I had more buildings than I could use because I focused on dailies rather than trying to get a full set. It was OK because expansions come at a pretty good clip. I added buildings gradually as I needed them, and since event buildings are generally great even 1 or 2 chapters later they all eventually made it int.
1. Yeah I think it would be a risk for a chapter 3 player to bulldoze all their manufactories, but they could use the opportunity to get rid of their non-boosted tier 1 manufactories for example. Those tend to go away after a few chapters, once the player is in a fellowship.
2. This is true! We shouldn't rely too heavily on these sets because there is no guarantee we can keep them up.
3. The meta! You're right that I am imagining an "idealized player", and realistically newer players aren't going to have everything figured out. That's probably why we are hearing that new players are finding the events difficult: they might not understand the game yet. I guess I'm more speaking to folks who can give new players advice on how to advance.
After finishing my second big event, Woodelvenstock, I had more buildings than I could use because I focused on dailies rather than trying to get a full set. It was OK because expansions come at a pretty good clip. I added buildings gradually as I needed them, and since event buildings are generally great even 1 or 2 chapters later they all eventually made it int.
DeletedUser9247
Guest
NO sets for me
Yes, they've gotten a bit better in terms of production, however they will never be anything else than 24 h collection without permission to move anything. That makes them very unattractive. I've dealt with the pain of the winter set for months and selling it off was pure satisfaction and a breath of fresh air - I'm freeeee, FREEE at last!
I have quite irregular work schedule and all those pretty calculations take nose dive after two days, 'cause I can't collect. Missing 3 in 7 days on average puts a considerable dent in the worth of any set. I cannot treat them as anything but some minor bonus to production and certainly never be able to rely on them for goods. The pain of not being allowed to move my buildings in my city is just insult on top of injury.
I long for a good culture building....
Yes, they've gotten a bit better in terms of production, however they will never be anything else than 24 h collection without permission to move anything. That makes them very unattractive. I've dealt with the pain of the winter set for months and selling it off was pure satisfaction and a breath of fresh air - I'm freeeee, FREEE at last!
I have quite irregular work schedule and all those pretty calculations take nose dive after two days, 'cause I can't collect. Missing 3 in 7 days on average puts a considerable dent in the worth of any set. I cannot treat them as anything but some minor bonus to production and certainly never be able to rely on them for goods. The pain of not being allowed to move my buildings in my city is just insult on top of injury.
I long for a good culture building....
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
The new sets produce far more goods in a much smaller space: that is the perfect reason.
I came to the conclusion that ranking is completely broken in this game a long time ago. It's not even the P2W aspect (which is huge) it's the fact that you have to make your city worse in order to gain rank.
e.g. A residence that costs Culture and needs a road increases your score, but an event building that gives you more population and gives you culture without a road does nothing for your score?!
e.g on topic: In chapter 13 having just the small harvest set buildings produces more than a max level T1, and yet the T1 which takes up a buttload of space(counting residences) is worth more to your score. That is just stupid.
A terrible system not worth participating in. At least not as far as I'm concerned.
juniperknome
Well-Known Member
I ran many trial set up s with elven architect and can up with a not possible to do the guest races above fairies after dozen attempts I did the option to rid all event building and replace with houses and shops and manufacturing my score went up about 50k in points and 12 plus shops make most of the quests doable in one pass.so it was not just the points but that is something I have to account for now.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Here's a quick one:http://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/ff6de34f517b4780bd2fd450fbb0d2fa/
Deleted
2 residences
1 plank
Added
1 armory
1 Corn, temple entrance, harvest storage
Score goes up about 500
planks production goes up over 40%
culture goes up
Of course, if you don't need another armory, you could replace it with anything else- I just picked something that gave rank.
DeletedUser3507
Guest
Probably but that's what it is, I feel a balanced city should give more score than one that has a 100% boost.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
I think the city that produces the most troops&goods (including guest race)should have the highest score. It shouldn't matter if the goods come from a traveling merchant, a factory or a set building-- they all spend equally well in the tech tree and on the map.
Things like armories are the worst offenders. Why is the city with 10 armories higher ranked than a city with 5? There is nothing that 1 can accomplish which the other can't.
Perhaps dynamic ranking is the way to go. After all, if you and I have identical cities, and you log in every 3h while I log in every 24h, then your city is making more stuff.
Wonders are busted too: If I upgrade my barracks costing me 1,000 pop and you upgrade your needles for the same effect, I get more points than you do.
The one flaw that I haven't figured a way around is free space. If you have 2 equal cities, but one has 5 empty expansions, then objectively the one with space is better since it can do more in events, the FA, and the guest races.
Last edited:
DeletedUser3507
Guest
So a player with a lvl 30 Mountain Hall would have a serious edge. Sir @SoggyShorts ? Ebeda on my team has that.. 240% goods
Pheryll
Set Designer
240% from mountain halls is a 30% increase overall. While this is good, the game has been changing in many ways to disfavor this AW, without even needing the nerfing that the crystal lighthouse underwent. First, sentient goods do not benefit from mountain halls and consume an entire manufactory worth of population and culture, decreasing the amount of manufactories mountain halls would influence. Second, set buildings producing goods are not boosted by mountain halls (nor are the traveling merchants which interact like a manufactory for their production). Third the city size is only slowly increasing per chapter. These combined factors take away from mountain halls significantly.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Yes, and it should. Same goes for a player with a level 30 Shrewdy since they make more archers than a player with a level 1 Shrewdy.
Or perhaps production shouldn't be the measure of a city, but rather how that production is used.
- Points for cleared provinces
- Points for tournament average
- Points for completing techs(optional techs don't count, or need fixing first)
Look at it this way: would you rather invite someone into your FS who has
5 of each factory and sets them every 3h, using those goods to get 2.0K points in the tournament,
or
7 of each factory and sets them every 9h, using those goods to get 1.5K points in the tournament,
or
4 of each factory set every 3h and event buildings, using those goods to get 2.5K in the tournament?
Under the current system, the player above who accomplishes the least has the highest rank. This is partially fixed with elvenstats. but ES doesn't know how often you set your factories, nor does it know how big your squad size is, so your ability to do the tournament could be very different. We shouldn't need a third party site for comparison when the game itself has so much more information it could use.
Laochra
Well-Known Member
It is possible, with some strategic planning to complete some events in the early chapters. I started my human city this past February, right before the Valentine event. I was in Chapter 2 & was able to finish the event. That was one of the mini-events, though. For the longer events like this Fall event we are doing, I always check GoK for the list of daily prizes & GPs beforehand to decide what I hope to gain for each of my cities. Some events, I choose to skip the GPs & aim for specific daily prizes instead. If I end up with a GP, that's fine, but not my primary goal (except last year's Winter Event, I went all out for GPs). My elf cities are in the Orcs chapter & even when I was aiming for GPs, I have yet to win the 3rd one. But I am ok with that. Any & every little boost helps & it was more than what I had before the event began.