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    Your Elvenar Team

(POLL) Why do you visit on World map?

Will the change to the LH/BS change how often you visit neighbors?

  • No, I don't have a LH/BS

    Votes: 11 15.1%
  • No, I just visit my FS and those that visit me anyways.

    Votes: 8 11.0%
  • No, I do extra visits because of the coins, not the goods.

    Votes: 8 11.0%
  • Somewhat, my motivation for doing extra visits is for both goods and coins.

    Votes: 20 27.4%
  • Yes, I my major motivation for visiting those that haven't visited me is the goods.

    Votes: 18 24.7%
  • You lied about the cake again!

    Votes: 8 11.0%

  • Total voters
    73

Galdrias

New Member
So, are these visit chests going to be in addition to the three we get by doing visits daily now that have either a relic, kp, or an enchantment, or are they replacements of those? Or, are the goods going to be one of the potential options that players get in the visit chests, so that realistically, none of them might contain the goods? Who is this supposed to benefit and how?
 

DeletedUser8912

Guest
Ya know Inno there would probably be less consternation about these changes if there was some responsiveness to the community other than on the beta forums.
 
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Pheryll

Set Designer
Just read the last line of Inno's explanation:

"And we think that this is the most important element to push people to perform Neighborly help and make sure it's as easy convenient as people."

Does Inno really think people are easy and convenient?
 

Sir Squirrel

Artist EXTRAORDINAIRE and Buddy Fan Club member
Yeah I seen the typo too I think they meant "make sure it's easy and convenient for people.", but I could be wrong.
What they don't say very clearly is they will hopefully be implementing the faster NH from the mobile version of the game over to us on PC, so there won't be any loading of the cities anymore and NH will become super fast (at least this is what was explained in beta to us today). This AW was very over powered if you are a higher level player (with lots of cities discovered) and visit all your neighbors everyday, and with the new faster NH coming they needed to correct this. I agree that they should have waited till the new NH came out, but Inno tends to do things backwards sometimes. I also agree that they should add more then three chest for those that do more visits to give players incentive to do more visits as well. If you get the three chests in the first three visits there isn't much incentive to do much more then your FS and return visits and that hurts the new players that haven't discovered many players and really need the help!
 
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DeletedUser7370

Guest
This AW was very over powered if you are a higher level player
I don't see how it could ever produce more than a factory running maximum productions per day. I would hardly call it overpowered when it produces equal to the maximum that a single factory can produce when the player must also apply the maximum possible effort.

The changed version rewards people that want to make the minimum effort.
 

Sir Squirrel

Artist EXTRAORDINAIRE and Buddy Fan Club member
Ok Ted let me say that at the moment without the new NH implemented, it is only slightly over powered as it does take a long time to do visits, but when it only takes 15 minutes to help 300 players, then I will consider it over powered. The amount of goods end level players can get with this wonder when it is upgraded to its higher levels is quite a bit. Just look at the amount of goods some players are posting that they will lose when this takes affect. If it wasn't a huge amount no one would be complaining.
 
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DeletedUser7370

Guest
The amount of goods end level players can get with this wonder when it is upgraded to its higher levels is quite a bit.
How about we try to put some actual numbers to that. Let's say a L9 lighthouse that is 75% and late stage well over scouted 300 provinces conquered for 225 goods per help. Three hundred provinces means 150 neighbors add fellowship of 25 for 175 helps per day. Making the grand total 39375 goods for at least 40 minutes of effort.

Now I will use a L23 elixir factory for comparison. Wiki says 1262/d, applying the magic ratio that is 402 per 3hr production. Assuming max boost and a L9 mountain halls the boost value would be 760% which makes 3457 per production. At 6 productions per day that would be 20742.

So the lighthouse that someone has spent a lot of KP to level and spends a lot of time doing many helps only provides twice as many goods as 1 factory. If you factor that those goods are random among the 3 tiers and use the 1:2:5 tier ratio then the lighthouse above of 39375 per day is only delivering an equivalent of 22312 T3 goods per day. Just 10% more than that single factory for a lot of work.

No it is not overpowered as it is now. But it will be completely worthless after the change.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Ok Ted let me say that at the moment without the new NH implemented, it is only slightly over powered as it does take a long time to do visits, but when it only takes 15 minutes to help 300 players, then I will consider it very over powered. The amount of goods end level players can get with this wonder when it is upgraded to its higher levels is quite a bit. Just look at the amount of goods some players are posting that they will lose when this takes affect. If it wasn't a huge amount no one would be complaining.
It's still limited to once a day, regardless of how visits are, so that doesn't change the output in the least, just makes it slightly more likely that people will actually do their neighbor visits. It produces a little more than an equivalent factory, and requires a huge number of KP and a huge number of runes to get there and takes up more space than most factories. There is plenty of balance that keeps it from being at all over-powered.
 

Sir Squirrel

Artist EXTRAORDINAIRE and Buddy Fan Club member
If your talking space you have to add the amount of upgraded workshops and residences that you would need to keep your factory going as well.
 

Sir Squirrel

Artist EXTRAORDINAIRE and Buddy Fan Club member
I don't think I agree, my bell spire takes 24 spaces, equivalent factory level 19 dust, takes 3328 pop and 886 culture. So the factory takes 4x5=20 spaces, the residence to build it 1.5 level 26 residences are 3x5=15+7=22 spaces, and culture say 3x3 for 9 spaces, that's 51 spaces, thats more then double the space. One expansion less space and KP's are put in mostly when tec-locked (or when at the end of chapters) so most aren't stopping their advancement to upgrade it. Also it needs to be compared to what other wonders give and I don't think any other wonder gives as much as it does over the same amount of time.
This is only my opinion though, I do understand why players are upset as they will not be able to get as many goods with the change and it won't get players to do more visits which is the biggest down fall of the change in my opinion, the loss of goods I can deal with.
edited only one extra expansion worth of space sorry.
 
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Ashrem

Oh Wise One
By "minor percentage difference", I was thinking in comparison to the total typical goods production for a city of that level. Even if they ride close to the minimum 3.3.3, If you took what they are getting in comparison to what they'd get by filling that space with the necessary infrastructure and extra manufacturing, it's unlikely to hit even a 15% bonus to their goods output, in return for which they are required to visit all those neighbors, which the majority won't do every day, while they will run their factories every day.

Is it powerful, sure, but so are the other ancient wonders. That's the whole point of them. Is it unbalanced? I don't think so.
 

DeletedUser7370

Guest
I got to the end of the fairies chapter with all my planned buildings completely upgraded. Because of the herds event I had had well over the requirements for a 70% culture bonus for most of the chapter; it finally dropped to 60% by a small margin with the final set of armory upgrades. I still had over 1000 spare population. If I continued going as I was, then I would expect to have 3 to 5 thousand spare population and still be in the upper side of 60% culture bonus by chapter 10. So I would not have to count the residences or culture going to support that factory because it would all be sitting idle in my city anyhow. I think anyone that tries to align their goods production to only slightly exceed their needs would have the same results.

In any case given the massive cut to the LH/BS wonder I will be selling mine out of my city. It is only L1 and has 5KP of unsolicited donations. I won't feel guilty about getting rid of it. Maybe I will add another armory with the space.
 

DeletedUser7738

Guest
I do rounds for the gold & goods, yes, but I also do them to check out active cities and help my neighbors (paying attention to those that actually have specific needs listed in their city titles) and esp those neighbors that are active traders with me. So, now here we go, yet another change to the player's game to make us more reliant on diamonds. Kinda like graham crackers: they didn't change the size of the box, but reduced the size of the cracker to the point where their individual pkg'g rattles around inside the box usually breaking off the corners. I stopped buying them and make my own now.
 

DeletedUser7320

Guest
I have a Light House. I have leveled it up to benefit from the extra goods. If they nerf it, they should allow people who have it to cash it in for reimbursement of the KP they put into it.
I was about to put down Bellspire in a different town - waiting until this is resolved.

Will seriously decrease the effort and time I will spend doing visits - at most ( if I don't pop the LH - I will go til I get 3 chests and be done.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
How about we try to put some actual numbers to that.
vs lh.png

That's a pretty big chunk of land compared to the LH not even counting culture, and you'd need at least 150% culture, or another 1/2 workshop to run that dust.

I think the nerf does go too far though.
How does old LH vs new LH compare to MtHalls? I think that is an easier comparison to make.
 

DeletedUser7370

Guest
View attachment 2414
That's a pretty big chunk of land compared to the LH not even counting culture, and you'd need at least 150% culture, or another 1/2 workshop to run that dust.
You have a number of Chapter 9 and 10 cities. What is your unemployment and excess culture in those cities? Unless you are running 0 unemployment and your culture is very close to your target bonus goal, then you have excesses that would deduct from those numbers. Rhetorical questions follow:

You included a workshop, do you have any supporting numbers to suggest that the workshop in your picture matches the requirements for the factory production? Does the city constantly run a surplus of supplies, such that a workshop might be superfluous? Does the player have priorities that tend to cause excess residences? Does the player routinely cycle quests in a way that might produce additional supplies or coins?

Analyzing all of these things outside of a full city and the player that runs it is about as useful as quoting a politician. That is why I left the rest of the city out of the comparison between the wonder and a factory.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
What is your unemployment and excess culture in those cities?
500&434 pop extra, but I'm using some for level 1 buildings, and have a few armory levels to do once I nuke those.
1490&1780 culture more than I need for 150%, but again, I have some upgrades to do.
I run a pretty tight ship.
You included a workshop, do you have any supporting numbers to suggest that the workshop in your picture matches the requirements for the factory production?
vs lh.png

My mistake, looks like I should have had two workshops @150% to support that dust.;)

Here's the updated, slightly more accurate city
vs lh.png

http://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/a04d36b34615409b85c723977583fe13/

I do agree that not everyone plays with tight margins, so yes, results will vary, but 6 expansions does seem like a lot compared to the LH footprint.
 
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DeletedUser7370

Guest
It is nice to see that it used to scale up to a very useful thing for a city in chapter 10 or beyond. Now recalculate it for the change when it is producing 1/10th the previous level for such a chapter 10+ city and for my city at the end of fairies is being cut by 1/3rd its previous power.

I think it use to be just about right. Now it is being trashed to encourage some people that never cared to make a tiny effort to make that tiny effort, while destroying a solid incentive for people that work hard to work hard.

And there is also the largest error in your calculations. We are talking about a city in chapter 10 or above that has a well developed wonder. It is reasonable to assume that the player of such a city would have made an effort to obtain the best items from recent events. You use basic items when an advanced player will likely have many event items.
 
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SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
And there is also the largest error in your calculations. We are talking about a city in chapter 10 or above that has a well developed wonder. It is reasonable to assume that the player of such a city would have made an effort to obtain the best items from recent events. You use basic items when an advanced player will likely have many event items.
I was just using what I actually have since you mentioned my chapter 9&10 cities (I actually just have 2x11 and a beta9)
Also It was you who mentioned a level 23 Tier 3 which is unlocked in chapter 11.

I honestly don't have any buildings that are better than that example. My winter stars from chapter 7 aren't as good as level 27 res, and I got my 2 mother dragons in chapter 10(which I haven't placed) so they are basically the same per square as a level 27 res, but with bonus culture(which I didn't factor in the example build anyways)

Event buildings have really gone downhill, and rarely perform better than what you unlock next chapter now.
The best I can come up with is chapter 11 Glossy Gardens, which don't even exist since the last time they were winnable halflings hadn't been released.
vs lh.png
http://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/e4562ff9463944b4bf8a1eff7e46cd3b/
It is nice to see that it used to scale up to a very useful thing for a city in chapter 10 or beyond. Now recalculate it for the change when it is producing 1/10th the previous level for such a chapter 10+ city and for my city at the end of fairies is being cut by 1/3rd its previous power.
Like I said, I personally think inno went too far with the nerf, but they always do so I'm not surprised.
I think it use to be just about right. Now it is being trashed to encourage some people that never cared to make a tiny effort to make that tiny effort, while destroying a solid incentive for people that work hard to work hard.
If it was up to me players would get a really nice incentive for doing (10x chapter) visits a day with or without the LH.
Maybe in 6-28 months when inno makes visiting easier they could have tweaked the LH, but even then, a 90% loss for dedicated players is just plain mean.

I've been railing against this change since first announced on Beta (despite not having a LH in any of my cities) because I think players should be rewarded for visits.
I do however think that the LH unchanged would be one of the best wonders if the time it takes to do visits is reduced to a couple minutes like they plan.. perhaps even overpowered.
 
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