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    Your Elvenar Team

Price in the Eye of the Markets

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Is somebody paying you by the word?

There are only two problems with writing long missives in a forum. The first is the risk that your words are repetitive and boring, and thus, a waste of time. Good editing takes care of this and is the responsibility of the writer. The second is the risk that some readers can't recognize the difference between a long, well written and non-repetitive message and a boring repetitive one. Usually, these responders, when they see a whole bunch of words on a page think "wall of text" and their first, and often only, response is "Is somebody paying you by the word?" or some such negative reply, including "and I thought I was long-winded." Such responses are classified as an ad hominem and considered in poor taste exactly because they do not address the message but, instead, deride the messenger.

Just a thought on the above responses to desire2c's long, but cogent message. I may not agree with her message, but I will defend her right and even responsibility to put it clearly, concisely and non-repetitively. That's just good communication.

AJ

And, as an aside, Dickens was paid by the word and for that we have a whole library of good works.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I don't doubt it's possible to generate some profit on a few trades, but the potential total profit is insignificant compared to a single factory's daily boost output. Even the most widely spread of explorers has a tiny pool from which to generate trades, and most markups at the sentient level are less than the daily decay. A person would have to be both dedicated and lucky to make 5% of their entire stock on a good day, let alone over the long haul. There is zero capacity to support even one city with trading profit.

Sorry if this is out of line but I didn't notice Ashrem's response. Here's therefore, my own.

First, all it takes to generate a 5% profit are trades offering 5% or more than the standard 2 star trade. I did not intend to argue that the total profit I make in a particular day is 5% of my daily total production, but that, given the make up of my fellowship and my neighbors trades, I consistently see 10% profits on trades and since I only grab 3 star trades at a minimum of 5% profit, on some days I do quite well, particularly as I'm here constantly, check the markets frequently and have the resources to hold goods until the proper time, and have over 100 active trading partners, about 50 of whom I keep in good contact. Thus, "a single factory's daily boos output" may turn out to be less than the profit I generate on some days if the trades are large enough. Is this "insignificant?" Such a word is difficult to define because it's imprecise. What is "significant" may be one amount to one player and a different amount to another. And, in addition the values of your time and the enjoyment play into it as well. I enjoy my trades and since I do them consistently I profit enough to enjoy the activity. To me that is significant. Some people put their little unicorns all in a row. Is that insignificant? To them? I doubt it.

AJ

@mucksterme You are right about that. Dickens was not, strictly speaking, paid by the word. BUT, since the length of each installment was tightly controlled and the number of installments as well, it was, in effect a formula which amounted to just about the same thing. But yes, you are correct, he was not paid by the word. I stand corrected. Thanks.

AJ
 

Steelhail

Member
Since Desire brought up More’s Utopia … in imagining a country without private property, Utopians still propose a system of value and utility. For example, in Utopia people make their chamberpots/toilets out of gold because the society wants to stigmatize gold as useless and place value on more “useful” metals or on alternate social virtues: the result is that any Utopian who wears a gold crown is going to be made fun of. While Elvenar’s trader permits you to post 1 star trades (just as Utopia allows citizens to wear a gold crown), it incorporates other game dynamics to encourage different values and places a social stigma on the trader’s misuse: I help someone out with a fair trade, and the game provides outlets for players to express gratitude practically like giving neighborly help, dropping knowledge points in my ancient wonder, recruiting me or joining my alliance, taking my trades when I need help, thereby leading me to reciprocate toward the ones who helped me, etc. This could be an interesting way of thinking about Elvenar world-building and perhaps why the established community (including myself) rankles at 1-star trades—given the other game factors, you might see a gold crown where the community sees a toilet on the head!

In thinking about that stigmatization, what I don’t get is that, particularly after Desire’s second message, some (not all) posts still feel rather unwelcoming to a self-professed new player. Sure, have a spirited debate explaining why that proposed understanding doesn’t cut it. Maybe add, “if you like competition, Elvenar added tournament ranking points to channel your inner Kobe Bryant there instead of at the trader.” But if you criticize a first-time forum poster for their lack of nuance and context in the first message, and then tease them for being too long in the second message … or for their expressing an opinion without having played the game for a few years … I think that undercuts the very cooperative neighborliness that Elvenar aims for, right?
 

shimmerfly

Well-Known Member
Eeek! Another long winded one.
Yes you do have every right to post whatever you choose in the forum. Please keep in mind that 90% of us are adults who have been around the block more than once. Your posts are written in the same form so I doubt your fooling anyone by another new account.
Sometimes when joining a new group it is wise to sit back and observe before jumping in with both feet?
Not criticizing , but rather trying to be helpful.
There are hundreds of posts about unfair trades. Since this is not real life maybe your comparisons seem out of place.
If you have any constructive questions most people here would jump to help you out.
 

DeletedUser22644

Guest
QUOTE="Steelhail, post: 178897, member: 25929"]
Since Desire brought up More’s Utopia … in imagining a country without private property, Utopians still propose a system of value and utility. For example, in Utopia people make their chamberpots/toilets out of gold because the society wants to stigmatize gold as useless and place value on more “useful” metals or on alternate social virtues: the result is that any Utopian who wears a gold crown is going to be made fun of. While Elvenar’s trader permits you to post 1 star trades (just as Utopia allows citizens to wear a gold crown), it incorporates other game dynamics to encourage different values and places a social stigma on the trader’s misuse: I help someone out with a fair trade, and the game provides outlets for players to express gratitude practically like giving neighborly help, dropping knowledge points in my ancient wonder, recruiting me or joining my alliance, taking my trades when I need help, thereby leading me to reciprocate toward the ones who helped me, etc. This could be an interesting way of thinking about Elvenar world-building and perhaps why the established community (including myself) rankles at 1-star trades—given the other game factors, you might see a gold crown where the community sees a toilet on the head!

In thinking about that stigmatization, what I don’t get is that, particularly after Desire’s second message, some (not all) posts still feel rather unwelcoming to a self-professed new player. Sure, have a spirited debate explaining why that proposed understanding doesn’t cut it. Maybe add, “if you like competition, Elvenar added tournament ranking points to channel your inner Kobe Bryant there instead of at the trader.” But if you criticize a first-time forum poster for their lack of nuance and context in the first message, and then tease them for being too long in the second message … or for their expressing an opinion without having played the game for a few years … I think that undercuts the very cooperative neighborliness that Elvenar aims for, right?
[/QUOTE]
Actually Steelhail, its not that the OP posted his opinion and did not ask a question, it that the op posted more of a thesis statement and did not fully explain. Then when challenged the op goes into pity mode and then into not my fault mode and then lastly into you should think this way mode. This does not appear to be a 13 yr old new to the game or the gaming world and by admission an adult businessman. He was called a troll and I would agree with that assessment.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
First, all it takes to generate a 5% profit are trades offering 5% or more than the standard 2 star trade.
Did you even read what you quoted? As I said specifically, that works fine for specific individual trades, but not across your entire stockpile on a day-to-day basis. Most people who have a million of something and make a 5% return on 100,000 of it a few times a week do not consider themselves to have made a 5% profit, and are not going to be able to sustain a living off it.

To repeat (what you even quoted): "A person would have to be both dedicated and lucky to make 5% of their entire stock on a good day, let alone over the long haul. There is zero capacity to support even one city with trading profit."

You're arguing something I never posited. Individual profit is fairly simple. The notion that someone can use the trader to support themselves (as in an open market) is ridiculous.
 

Steelhail

Member
Your posts are written in the same form so I doubt your fooling anyone by another new account.

Sigh. Elvenstats has a function where you can look me up--I have a top 40 account on SA. I’ve had an account for about 3 ½ years. 1 star posts are a personal pet peeve of mine, and I do not share most of Desire2c’s expressed beliefs. I appreciate your not claiming to have firsthand knowledge that my dad posed for a picture with JFK’S assassin, so that’s something, I guess.

Maybe you don’t intend to troll me by making false claims about who I am. Maybe you feel burned by past experiences with internet trolls, annoying 1-star posts, you think it’d be a waste of time to double-check something on elvenstats you think you already know, etc.

But if you’re _not_ trying to be a troll here (despite your actions), why not extend the same grace you’d want other people to interpret your own actions with? (After all, you got a couple of likes on your post.)

If you _are_ trying to troll, well then, ask yourself whether you are modeling for newcomers the community and form of participation you’d like them to emulate. Life’s too short to assume the most uncharitable context for someone’s words.

A charitable context is that someone is stuck at home during pandemic, looking for community outlets, has an area of expertise that informs their play style, doesn’t know the unstated community norms when they try to share their beliefs, and tries to fit back in that community by sharing personal details. They even offer to stay away from the forum if the community would “prefer it that way.”

I’m not seeing how responses like they’re long-winded, insincere, etc. do much more than discourage prospective new players from plugging into the game. As someone who has played the game for about 3 ½ years now, I have an interest in seeing new players stick around.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
made the recent changes to the Trader to make it even less wide open. If the OP is legit, he or she is probably just still mad about those changes and wants to go back to the old unfair system.
So for that to be true, the OP had to create two new cities recently, then play them for a few days, then join the forums, just to make the point.
he or she is probably just still mad about those changes and wants to go back to the old unfair system.
someone is stuck at home during pandemic, looking for
@Steelhail @Desire2c
Or whoever you are :rolleyes: Put down the shovel!!
You have confirmed (for me, don't give 2 hoots about whether anyone else agrees with me) that:
(1) both posters are one and the same
(2) you are a long term player who preferred the unfair trade system where you could take advantage of others

And now, you've gone and attacked @shimmerfly who plainly said:
Sometimes when joining a new group it is wise to sit back and observe before jumping in with both feet?
Not criticizing , but rather trying to be helpful.
trying to help you and who is possibly the easiest poster in the entire forums to get along with!! You could have taken the time to get to know folks on the forum before lecturing us if you truly wished to 'share' some insights we might be missing.
So, keep digging if you just can't help yourself...
1591210049795.png
 

shimmerfly

Well-Known Member
But if you’re _not_ trying to be a troll here (despite your actions), why not extend the same grace you’d want other people to interpret your own actions with? (After all, you got a couple of likes on your post.)

If you _are_ trying to troll, well then, ask yourself whether you are modeling for newcomers the community and form of participation you’d like them to emulate. Life’s too short to assume the most uncharitable context for someone’s words.

A charitable context is that someone is stuck at home during pandemic, looking for community outlets, has an area of expertise that informs their play style, doesn’t know the unstated community norms when they try to share their beliefs, and tries to fit back in that community by sharing personal details. They even offer to stay away from the forum if the community would “prefer it that way.”
I am not a vindictive person in any way shape or form. I was just stating what is obvious to me.
If you visited the forum forum for any time, you would know that the people in this post are some of the most helpful or wouldn't be reading it. We do so to help the new player not to win an argument which seems ( to me) what is important to you.
May I suggest you read Utopia again? It is not all sweeetness and bliss or communal heaven.

Over and out.
 

Steelhail

Member
@Steelhail @Desire2c
Or whoever you are :rolleyes: Put down the shovel!!
You have confirmed (for me, don't give 2 hoots about whether anyone else agrees with me) that:
(1) both posters are one and the same
(2) you are a long term player who preferred the unfair trade system where you could take advantage of others

And now, you've gone and attacked @shimmerfly
[/SPOILER]


@samidodamage, did you read the parts of my first post where I said why Desire2c's argument was wrong (the game mechanics encouraging other values like gratitude expression, etc.)? If I rightly understand, you are claiming that I embrace mutually contradictory positions and intentionally refute myself. I don't see the logic here. I don’t like 1 star trades, have never offered one, and I haven’t even offered cross-tier trades for over two years now.

I mentioned @shimmerfly to address the apparent false accusation I was Desire2c (which you echo here), but @allannon thinks shimmerfly wasn’t talking about me, so my apologies shimmerfly if I misunderstood your claim. I used the term "trolling" because if you did make incendiary claims about me without knowing it, I'd consider it trolling, but maybe not intended as such.

I'm hearing from from samidodamage's post that it probably feels to others like I'm a forum newbie/intruder, it feels like I’m attacking shimmerfly or singling them out, so you're sticking up for a friend, you need to call a spade a spade and call me out, etc.

I understand that reaction. It shows you are a supportive empathetic friend, and that can be a valuable trait. But my big point is that I've seen several unkind responses (_not_ everyone here) to Desire's 2nd post that does not encourage new Elvenar players to stick with the game or join the community--it is unwelcoming if they are the newcomer posting, or if they are other silent readers seeing this is how a newcomer might be treated if they accidentally step in the hornet's nest.

You don't have to be an established poster within a community to recognize when forms of behavior are unwelcoming to those trying to enter that community. You’re actually often in a better position to spot it if you’re not. My thinking that there are blind spots here doesn't mean I don't think I've learned a lot from reading posts in the past months (years actually, on and off).

Also, I don't think More's Utopia is "sweetness and bliss." He named a speaker Hythloday after all.
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
@Steelhail Note that you are a new member. @shimmerfly has been here for a very long time. Don't be coming on here accusing someone I believe is a favorite longtime member of this forum of being a Troll. If anything you suddenly decided to jump into the Forum to post a dissertation that at the very least I was pretty sure, and still think, was the same writer as Desire2C and TROLL the regulars here. I for one cannot be less impressed with your claims of being a great player. First, that still doesn't give you the right to only join the forum when you decide to go on the offensive and alienate our "Well Known Members". Second, as the #4 ranked player on Elcysandir about to hit 1 1/2 times the Ranking points you have, I am not impressed :p :rolleyes:

Adding: I prefer Ayn Rand personally. I may not agree with all of her philosophy but loved her books since Jr High School ;)
 
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Pheryll

Set Designer
Secondly, Elvenar is similar to a computer game I played years ago (early 2000’s). I can’t recall the name of the game however, it was based on building a city and managing an economy.
...
When I gave my opinion about trader I was only trying to present what I have learned (wrong or right) throughout my years in real estate.
...
The book does not present this world as a fantasy but as an idealistic world that can possibly be realized (but I will need to re-read the book to know for sure if this is what the book is exactly about). Nevertheless, I recommend this book to all the Elvenar players.
...
I have always held the idea that any economic system could be successful if it was truly ran by the people for the people, be it socialist, capitalist or any other system other than an authoritarian, autocratic or tyrannical type system.
...
If Elvenar has evolved into a game having an anarcho-primitivism or utopia type system then I was and is wrong about the game.
...
I feel the game’s current economic dynamic can exist while all player on all sides of any trade can be winners and build beautiful cities and provinces especially when, in my opinion, each and every Elvenar player(including our computer army unit) are competing against a computer program and not against each other.

You came to Elvenar because (among other things) you were interested in the economy of the game. The economy is simple: you produce some goods in greater quantities and trade with other players that produce other goods in greater quantities. If 2 star trades were used by everyone, then the game would not become anarcho-primitivism or utopian, rather it would still be a sound economy where "all player on all sides of any trade can be winners." There is literally nothing in the game to force you to trade at a disadvantage to yourself or to others.

I am not sure what your expertise in real estate or your understanding of a book containing an economic system that you are discouraging has to do with anything.
 

mucksterme

Oh Wise One
I mentioned @shimmerfly to address the apparent false accusation I was Desire2c (which you echo here), but @allannon thinks shimmerfly wasn’t talking about me, so my apologies shimmerfly if I misunderstood your claim.

As MANY have said
Maybe you should have spent some time here before running your mouth, Then you wouldn't have made that mistake
You misread shimmer because you are new
Anybody who has been here for any length of time knows shimmer is the last person to troll or make veiled accusations

sorry for going on so long
 

Steelhail

Member
Edited because quote function accidentally combined my message with Deborah's.

I for one cannot be less impressed with your claims of being a great player....As the #4 ranked player on Elcysandir about to hit 1 1/2 times the Ranking points you have, I am not impressed :p :rolleyes:

@Deborah M I'm not claiming to be a great player. And we can laugh together at my abysmal Elcysandir score. At the score on most of my servers, for that matter. I've been working on my Sinya account since the server first opened, so I'd be a little misty-eyed if you laughed at that one, but that's okay too--to be honest, my city space management sucks even on Sinya. Decent on tournaments though. But I'm not sure that city-shaming me directly undercuts my claim that some established posters give off an “unwelcome” vibe to new posters.

I don’t think approaching a new poster by provocatively stating they are just writing “from another new account” is productive (whether it was directed at me, at 2Desire, whoever). If true, it encourages treating intuition with the weight of fact; if untrue, it libels strangers, provokes unnecessarily, and exploits home court advantage. If you don’t like my using the word “troll” to describe those actions because it’s a well-respected member, tell me what to call it (I’m not being flippant here—tell me). But my first post is not about shimmer's one comment, it's about a range of comments.

I love Elvenar and had thought about a forum account for a while. I entered now because 1..I teach More's Utopia, hey, it's interesting another poster brought that up about my favorite game, I like intellectual engagement and 2.the responses to Desire's _second_ post.

To be frank, when I read the first OM, I was irritated too; without context, I assumed with most of you it was an excuse for price-gouging. The second post made me question whether I had falsely projected my own assumptions on them. The second post conceded they might misunderstand, described what they love about Elvenar, and saying on the forum they'll just leave if that’s what the community wants, etc.

Many community responses ranged from it's insincere, it's too wordy, it's condescending to recommend a book, it must be a dummy account, and the conveyed (but not explicit) sentiment from several of yeah, the community does want you to go away. That's what I had in mind (not shimmer specifically).

So yes, I thought how I’d feel if people treated me that way if I were trying to join a community after an abysmal first impression. That galvanized my post, apparently so I could make a bad first impression of my very own.

Maybe Desire's post was insincere, maybe it's not, but if you're wrong, um, that's bad, and if you're right, what did how you treated someone you can't mindread convey to outside readers interested in joining your community? I weighed consequences of not posting and thought it could help prevent future expressions of toxicity.

I went through a big Ayn Rand phase in high school too. I'm more social justicey now though. Which makes much of what happened on this thread feel quite ironic.
 
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DeletedUser22644

Guest
...

Adding: I prefer Ayn Rand personally. I may not agree with all of her philosophy but loved her books since Jr High School ;)

OH my another Ayn Rand fan, I would never have guessed. Objectivism for the win
 
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