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    Your Elvenar Team

Problems for all newcomers creating cities.

DeletedUser7002

Guest
I happen to be lucky to belong to 2 different fellowships that are helpful in so many ways. I am fairly new to your game. I have some questions that maybe you can answer:
1. Can't win battles, impossible odds. Older members in the game don't fight they negotiate. They tell you not to fight because you can't win. I quite like fighting but am now at 36 squad size going against different enemies with squad sizes of 138 or more. What is the point of having something in your game that people won't do because it is impossibly frustrating?
2. Thank you for fixing the tournaments but again, older members don't do the tournaments and everyone I asked said the exact same thing: "The tournament prizes are not worth the hassle of the battle." Consequently, newbies have no hope of getting to chest 10 for a blueprint. Why don't you make better prizes for tournaments? If you want people to play and be willing to buy diamonds, you should make it worth their while. Financially speaking, what you are doing makes no sense. Why not encourage instead of discourage players from doing all the things available in the game? Negotiating is no fun, battle should be fun for people not frustrating!

I have read a lot in your forums and many people complain. I printed out your strategy because it is like triginometry, impossible to read and understand. That is usually a sign that something isn't right. They say you don't respond and that you don't care but I am hoping that isn't true. Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I will watch for a reply. The Wizard McKinley
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
If you have a squad size of 36 vs 138, it is probable that you have explored much further than the developers intend, and the large squads are intended to slow you down. If you look at your tech tree, you can hover over the next chapter's scouting tech chests to see the number of provinces that are required to be finished in order for you to progress. You may be able to fight if you have a few more than that, but if you have more than 10% to 15% above that, you are what is often referred to by players as "over-scouted" or "outside the Goldilocks Zone (GZ)." there is no prohibition against doing so, but the devs will not adjust the game to make it easier. In game terms you have basically bitten off more than you can chew, and the options at that point are to negotiate everything, or to stop scouting new provinces until the squad sizes equalize. If a player continues to overscout they eventually reach a stage where even negotiation becomes impossible, as it will require materials that they can't provide yet (Eventually, you'll need orc chapter stuff to negotiate, and if you aren't in the right chapter yet, there is no way to obtain those.

All of that is a deliberate design feature, not a bug.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
1. Can't win battles, impossible odds. Older members in the game don't fight they negotiate. They tell you not to fight because you can't win. I quite like fighting but am now at 36 squad size going against different enemies with squad sizes of 138 or more. What is the point of having something in your game that people won't do because it is impossibly frustrating?

There is a lot of history with the combat system and you need to be careful of who you take advice from in relation to it and your own strategy plans. Some of the old players are what is described as having explored beyond the expected zone or goldilocks zone. The combat system is designed not to win fights at that stage. While some were there before we became more aware of how things worked some have deliberately chosen to go into this area and then complain they can't win.

If you are in the expected zone (or GZ) than you will be able to win fights, cheaper negotiation costs and shorter scout times. The biggest exception to this is in the first 3 eras and many experienced players are lobbying for changes in this area. Some improvements have occurred but not enough in my opinion. If you are in those eras negotiating is a good option but try to stay within the expected zone if you plan to combat in provinces later otherwise you will be stuck to combat in tournaments only.

If you need to know more about the expected zone I have some information about it in my guide, granted it is hard to define and somewhat speculative as there is no exact rule, just hints.

I printed out your strategy because it is like triginometry, impossible to read and understand.

To what strategy do you refer? I have never seen an official strategy.

They say you don't respond and that you don't care but I am hoping that isn't true.

While you may not get a response to this specific thread I don't agree with the people who say Inno do not respond or care. Often this is said by people upset with changes or their perception of the game and its direction. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary and this is often much easier to see on beta but you will see it in other forums too. The recent Q&A sessions on facebook also show responses to some questions/comments/suggestions.
 

DeletedUser7002

Guest
I wanted to test out the information you gave here. I started a new Kingdom on Sunday, March 26th. I am already losing battles. I am not scouting out like before. But, you encourage scouting to win expansions which entices most of us to fight because we need room (especially for events). I have so far lost 2 battles. I looked at what players to play according to your instructions on battle and think I picked the right warriors for the job all to no avail. I am in chapter 1, I am thinking this is what you call era 1, 2, 3 correct? I am in chapter 2 on my other worlds. The treasure chests at the beginning tell us how many we need to have won in order to open the next chapter. I have 5 more to open in two cities and can't win battles and negotiation is tougher with the tournaments and event as supplies fly off the shelf. I love your game but most in my fellowships feel that battles can't be won and just negotiate. It is hard to get good input about battling. I quite like battling and want to battle more but the frustration is awful when you just can't win. So, maybe this problem is just for newbies and if that is so, please, please fix it. Also, why can the enemy have 6 or 7 squads and we are stuck at 5? Why is it so hard to get new and different fighters? We are trying to get members in the fellowship interested again and it is really hard when they tell us that it is not worth their time? You are shooting off your own foot because people get either bored or frustrated with the game. Even the man in the video did not seem really excited about what he won, he just said it was better than a slap in the face. Why not make the reward worth the battle? Another thing that you might consider is allowing fellowship members to fight together against a foe? You could limit it to only a few or two members at a time. It would really then mimic the epic battles in Camelot!

Thank you for answering but I am still frustrated beyond belief. Your battles are very technical and hard to understand.

Oh, I got battle strategy from The Crazy Wizard.

Wizard McKinley
 

DeletedUser7002

Guest
If you have a squad size of 36 vs 138, it is probable that you have explored much further than the developers intend, and the large squads are intended to slow you down. If you look at your tech tree, you can hover over the next chapter's scouting tech chests to see the number of provinces that are required to be finished in order for you to progress. You may be able to fight if you have a few more than that, but if you have more than 10% to 15% above that, you are what is often referred to by players as "over-scouted" or "outside the Goldilocks Zone (GZ)." there is no prohibition against doing so, but the devs will not adjust the game to make it easier. In game terms you have basically bitten off more than you can chew, and the options at that point are to negotiate everything, or to stop scouting new provinces until the squad sizes equalize. If a player continues to overscout they eventually reach a stage where even negotiation becomes impossible, as it will require materials that they can't provide yet (Eventually, you'll need orc chapter stuff to negotiate, and if you aren't in the right chapter yet, there is no way to obtain those.

All of that is a deliberate design feature, not a bug.

I thought that you had to win so many battles to open the treasure at the end of the chapters? Chapter 3 is telling me I need 5 more. I can't battle and the supplies are flying off the shelf due to the event so negotiating is tough. If you can look at my kingdoms, go see where my provinces are and you will see, I am not going to open chapter 3 without 5 more provinces so how can I be outside of the GZ? Thank you, Wizard McKinley
 

DeletedUser7002

Guest
I am sorry, I gave you wrong information. I have negotiated 10 battles to get ready for the next chapter (3). I fight my tournaments and really enjoy trying to beat them with minimal losses but the battles! I cannot win them. They have squads of 18 but they have 6 different squads while I still only have 5. They have mages, socerers and other types of fighters that throw things etc. and I don't but mages seem easier to kill with the right fighter. I don't understand what "initiative" means and have read that it is important to determine that to win. I have screen shots showing why I can't negotiate any why I can't win! Please explain why when so many complain, why I am frustrated but your battle strategy you say is good?
 

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DeletedUser7370

Guest
You will simply have to save up the goods to negotiate. Again don't scout anymore than is needed to unlock the chest at the start of the next chapter. When you can produce all 5 types of troops in the barracks is when you should be able to start fighting again. It is a well known design flaw in the game, but those early chapters do not take very long.
 

DeletedUser4027

Guest
Well, Not exactly, the game is a long term commitment. There are many ways to win encounters if you choose your fights wisely. Do not Auto Fight at any cost when your troops are weak (easy to determine when you prepare for a fight and when hovering over the opponents icons and your troops icons, pretty easy to see a mis-match)..... unless you have enough your coffers to win the encounter. But then its a waste of city resources. Train many troops and wait for the next Squad Upgrade....that'll hep!
 

DeletedUser5521

Guest
If you are in the expected zone (or GZ) than you will be able to win fights, cheaper negotiation costs and shorter scout times.
This is what I see in my little world:
Beta WM Top.jpg
Beta WM Bottom.jpg

I have only 15 scouted provs available to fight/complete, 5 of which are "yellow/medium" strength, 10 are "orange/hard". Of the provs available to scout, only 7 are "yellow/medium", the rest are "red/very hard". I have none of the elusive "green/easy" or "blue/piece of cake" (that one may be a rumor...I don't know anyone who has actually seen it..). Sounds like I must have been a bad girl, and over-scouted, dancing way out of the GZ, or skipping squad-size upgrades, or something? Nope. In fact, if you count my scouted provs and look at my tech tree, you'll see that if I were to complete all 15 of those scouted provs today, I would only be 3 over the magic # to open the next chest. I am at the very end of Chapter V, working on my last available squad-size upgrade before Dwarves.
Beta GZ.jpg
I've heard it said that the first 3 chapters are difficult for beginners to battle, so they should just negotiate in order to progress (which is just wrong on so many levels, but I don't want to get started on that). I've also heard it said that if you stay in the GZ, after Ch. 3 fights get easy. I'm about to enter Ch. 6. There should be lots of easy on my map. So why don't I see any? The battle system should not feel like you're having to take a Chemical Engineering test when you're majoring in Dance. It should be fun! And it is fun to win, not to be constantly defeated in battle and hear that awful low-pitched ♪bwah-bwah-bwah♪ every time you send your poor out-numbered and out-classed dudes to their deaths :(

Please make the fighting fun again INNO? It was sooooo much fun when I started in my first world 2 years ago. What the heck were you thinking? :(:(:(
 
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Ashrem

Oh Wise One
This is what I see in my little world:
View attachment 2212 View attachment 2214
I have only 15 scouted provs available to fight/complete,..... Sounds like I must have been a bad girl, and over-scouted, dancing way out of the GZ, or skipping squad-size upgrades, or something? Nope. In fact, if you count my scouted provs and look at my tech tree, you'll see that if I were to complete all 15 of those scouted provs today, I would only be 3 over the magic # to open the next chest.
I'm not sure what your point is. You have enough provinces scouted to finish the chapter. By the time you need more you will have another squad size tech or two, and many of the existing "hard" scouts will flip over to moderate or easy, which is exactly what they should be.
 

DeletedUser5521

Guest
I'm not sure what your point is..
Oh, I'm sorry Ashrem. I guess I should have made my point clearer for you. Please, forgive me for posting on your Forum. My point is that today, and since I began this city, and playing by the new "GZ rules" fighting has never been "easy", and it still isn't although so many say that "it should be". I am a seasoned player, so I stick with it. But it's no surprise to me how many new players get frustrated and even have given up long before this point. It is not fun. And many of us want our game to actually be fun. I hope that is more clear for you? I'd hate to think that, once again, YOU don't get my point.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Oh, I'm sorry Ashrem. I guess I should have made my point clearer for you. Please, forgive me for posting on your Forum. My point is that today, and since I began this city, and playing by the new "GZ rules" fighting has never been "easy", and it still isn't although so many say that "it should be". I am a seasoned player, so I stick with it. But it's no surprise to me how many new players get frustrated and even have given up long before this point. It is not fun. And many of us want our game to actually be fun. I hope that is more clear for you? I'd hate to think that, once again, YOU don't get my point.
patronizing-snoot aside, I don't. It seems like you think your scouting costs should be easy forever. Easy isn't the norm, moderate to hard is the norm. You have enough moderate and hard provinces to complete the chapter. If you want to keep scouting more provinces than you need to finish your current chapter, then it will be hard. That's the design. Games that are easy don't last. By the time you finish that squad size 15 some of the next provinces will be a bit easier, so will roll back over to moderate before yo need to do any more scouting.
 
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DeletedUser7370

Guest
This is what I see in my little world:
View attachment 2212 View attachment 2214
I have only 15 scouted provs available to fight/complete, 5 of which are "yellow/medium" strength, 10 are "orange/hard". Of the provs available to scout, only 7 are "yellow/medium", the rest are "red/very hard". I have none of the elusive "green/easy" or "blue/piece of cake" (that one may be a rumor...I don't know anyone who has actually seen it..). Sounds like I must have been a bad girl, and over-scouted, dancing way out of the GZ, or skipping squad-size upgrades, or something? Nope. In fact, if you count my scouted provs and look at my tech tree, you'll see that if I were to complete all 15 of those scouted provs today, I would only be 3 over the magic # to open the next chest. I am at the very end of Chapter V, working on my last available squad-size upgrade before Dwarves.
View attachment 2215 I've heard it said that the first 3 chapters are difficult for beginners to battle, so they should just negotiate in order to progress (which is just wrong on so many levels, but I don't want to get started on that). I've also heard it said that if you stay in the GZ, after Ch. 3 fights get easy. I'm about to enter Ch. 6. There should be lots of easy on my map. So why don't I see any? The battle system should not feel like you're having to take a Chemical Engineering test when you're majoring in Dance. It should be fun! And it is fun to win, not to be constantly defeated in battle and hear that awful low-pitched ♪bwah-bwah-bwah♪ every time you send your poor out-numbered and out-classed dudes to their deaths :(

Please make the fighting fun again INNO? It was sooooo much fun when I started in my first world 2 years ago. What the heck were you thinking? :(:(:(
Of your scouted provinces most are medium with some hard. You have many unscouted medium provinces, which means you did not scout optimally. When you get your squad size tech your scouted mediums should drop to easy and scouted hards may drop to medium. The next advanced scout tech and squad size tech will change all the unscouted mediums to easy and by the end of the dwarf chapter all the unscouted hards will be medium or easy. I am about to finish dwarves; I have seven provinces already scouted to do the end and they are all considered easy. I recent did a few encounters to finish off some herds quests and used 1 squad of troops per 3 encounters; that is easy.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
I think this answers a question I had. I had provinces, both scouted and not yet scouted showing as medium and very hard on my map. Today, they all show as easy and hard (don't really know what happened to medium there). Even some that had been scouted and had some encounters completed as medium are now easy. I am at the end of Chapter V and just started on the 'wonders' tech today. The last tech I completed before starting it was 'squad upgrade size 15'. So that must have been what triggered the change. Note that I have been so diligent about staying in the 'zone' that I still need 10 provinces to open the chest for dwarves. Once I complete them and the advanced scout for dwarves, I'm guessing the hard ones will go back to medium and then when I get the next squad upgrade they'll go to easy. If I let them sit there a minute and get another squad upgrade, maybe then I'll see the elusive blue 'piece of cake', lol!
 

mucksterme

Oh Wise One
I think this answers a question I had. I had provinces, both scouted and not yet scouted showing as medium and very hard on my map. Today, they all show as easy and hard (don't really know what happened to medium there). Even some that had been scouted and had some encounters completed as medium are now easy. I am at the end of Chapter V and just started on the 'wonders' tech today. The last tech I completed before starting it was 'squad upgrade size 15'. So that must have been what triggered the change. Note that I have been so diligent about staying in the 'zone' that I still need 10 provinces to open the chest for dwarves. Once I complete them and the advanced scout for dwarves, I'm guessing the hard ones will go back to medium and then when I get the next squad upgrade they'll go to easy. If I let them sit there a minute and get another squad upgrade, maybe then I'll see the elusive blue 'piece of cake', lol!

Yes, researching squad upgrades does change the settings. I just went back and researched all the upgrades I had skipped and had provs go from 'Hard' to 'Easy'. I even have some showing as 'Very Easy' now.
But
No, researching scouts will not change those designations.
Scout research lowers the cost and time for scouting, it does not affect battles.
 

DeletedUser7370

Guest
No, researching scouts will not change those designations.
Scout research lowers the cost and time for scouting
For any province that is not yet scouted the ADVANCED SCOUT tech will affect the battle and negotiation costs as well since they are determined by the scouting cost in coins at the time the province was scouted. Lower scouting cost equals lower combat costs. This is also why scouting a number of provinces can cause some to change from easy to medium; albeit such changes are more common for earlier chapters because the relative cost change 500K to 580K is much smaller than 20K to 30K.
 

mucksterme

Oh Wise One
For any province that is not yet scouted the ADVANCED SCOUT tech will affect the battle and negotiation costs as well since they are determined by the scouting cost in coins at the time the province was scouted. Lower scouting cost equals lower combat costs. This is also why scouting a number of provinces can cause some to change from easy to medium; albeit such changes are more common for earlier chapters because the relative cost change 500K to 580K is much smaller than 20K to 30K.

I just today researched scout in a new city I am experimenting with. None of the designations changed.
 

DeletedUser7370

Guest
I just today researched scout in a new city I am experimenting with. None of the designations changed.
I just rolled a die. It had a result. What is your point?

One thing is simply a point. Two things makes a line. Three are required before a pattern can be conceived. You present one thing as evidence of a pattern, but you do not even have a point because you failed to provide enough details to make a point. Consider my die roll statement, you don't know whether it was a 4, 6, 10, 12, or 20 sided die. The statement is completely vague and without value. Your statement is likewise completely vague and without value.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
It's not quite that bad. We can reasonably interpolate that mucksterme is saying that having activated advanced scouts, none of the un-scouted provinces became any easier. Since that is something we might expect, it is some data, though you're right it's inadequate.

It's possible the change due to advanced scouts moved the province cost from the high end of "hard" to the low end of "hard". Still a change, and still easier, but not enough to change the label. Since Easy, Moderate, Hard and Very Hard is not exactly a wide range of discrete options, we still don't know if there might be cases (in chapters other than the one mucksterme just completed, or with players who have scouted more or fewer provinces) where the next chest would cause a shift in the difficulty rating for the province.
 
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